is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

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fourthirtythree
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by fourthirtythree »

The competition itself was an utter farce from beginning to end. If it in any way contributed to us and others keeping going it was a necessary evil but I had no interest in it

Move on. I mean it's not like I'll be watching the final or anything, I'll probably have DIY to do.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Oldschool »

fourthirtythree wrote: June 9th, 2021, 6:08 pm The competition itself was an utter farce from beginning to end. If it in any way contributed to us and others keeping going it was a necessary evil but I had no interest in it

Move on. I mean it's not like I'll be watching the final or anything, I'll probably have DIY to do.
Perhaps Leinster losing to Munster in the first round of matches influenced your lack of interest.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by heno »


LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Sorry but I don’t really get your initial point. I was saying that we could have just started next season with the expanded league, I don’t see why a cup was needed to integrate the two leagues.

I’d also take huge issue with saying that in hindsight it looks bad. It was incredibly predictable that it would go wrong, that’s my point around the incompetence.

Just because SA wanted/needed warm up games doesn’t mean they had to happen, not now, not in these very particular circumstances. And if that was a priority then there were other ways to achieve it.

I really can’t get my head around the idea that someone came up with the rainbow cup and people see that as being the only solution available as if it had to happen, it didn’t.
To answer your first point, I wasn't trying to say anything was required this year to facilitate a pro16 next year. That's in the bag. I was trying to explain that the sa teams wanted something this year and we tried to oblige.

Do you want to give an example of an alternative way we could have given a series of warm up games for the sa teams against European opposition while continuing with an uninterrupted pro12 played in full and not having to resort to an artificial short term competition?

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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I’ve mentioned three on the last two pages alone and more further back in the thread tbf.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by heno »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I’ve mentioned three on the last two pages alone and more further back in the thread tbf.
There are 2 strands being argued here.
1) that attempting to have a SA involvement in this season should have been cancelled at Christmas and we should have stuck with a more pure, fully played out pro 12.
2) that the version of the rainbow Cup that we ended up with was sh!t and we could have had a much better one.

I think the confusion is you seem to be arguing both of these at different times and maybe even sometimes the same time.
Myself, Dave and others are arguing against point 1).
I think we can all agree on point 2) although some of us are willing to concede that they didn't plan to end up here in Dec and there are mitigating factors for how we arrived where we did. I take it you are not so inclined.

I was aware of your suggestions on alternate rainbow cups but you didn't identify some magical ideal solution that wouldn't have been just as badly affected by the covid restrictions. For example, we could have gone for knockout games in London. But that would have just had the sa involvement cancelled the same as the real tournament did, as the UK did not want the sa contingent entering their country.

Anyway, my point is they were right to give the rainbow Cup a go. It was badly affected by the restrictions and what we ended up with was mediocre to say the least. But hopefully the pro 16 we end up with in September will be all the better for it.
And hopefully they don't call it pro 16.

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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Xanthippe »

heno wrote: June 10th, 2021, 12:06 am
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I’ve mentioned three on the last two pages alone and more further back in the thread tbf.
There are 2 strands being argued here.
1) that attempting to have a SA involvement in this season should have been cancelled at Christmas and we should have stuck with a more pure, fully played out pro 12.
2) that the version of the rainbow Cup that we ended up with was sh!t and we could have had a much better one.

I think the confusion is you seem to be arguing both of these at different times and maybe even sometimes the same time.
Myself, Dave and others are arguing against point 1).
I think we can all agree on point 2) although some of us are willing to concede that they didn't plan to end up here in Dec and there are mitigating factors for how we arrived where we did. I take it you are not so inclined.

I was aware of your suggestions on alternate rainbow cups but you didn't identify some magical ideal solution that wouldn't have been just as badly affected by the covid restrictions. For example, we could have gone for knockout games in London. But that would have just had the sa involvement cancelled the same as the real tournament did, as the UK did not want the sa contingent entering their country.

Anyway, my point is they were right to give the rainbow Cup a go. It was badly affected by the restrictions and what we ended up with was mediocre to say the least. But hopefully the pro 16 we end up with in September will be all the better for it.
And hopefully they don't call it pro 16.

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No it’ll probably be even worse than that - they’re bound to follow this season’s Rainbow Cup with next season’s Rainbow League
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

heno wrote: June 10th, 2021, 12:06 am
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I’ve mentioned three on the last two pages alone and more further back in the thread tbf.
There are 2 strands being argued here.
1) that attempting to have a SA involvement in this season should have been cancelled at Christmas and we should have stuck with a more pure, fully played out pro 12.
2) that the version of the rainbow Cup that we ended up with was sh!t and we could have had a much better one.

I think the confusion is you seem to be arguing both of these at different times and maybe even sometimes the same time.
Myself, Dave and others are arguing against point 1).
I think we can all agree on point 2) although some of us are willing to concede that they didn't plan to end up here in Dec and there are mitigating factors for how we arrived where we did. I take it you are not so inclined.

I was aware of your suggestions on alternate rainbow cups but you didn't identify some magical ideal solution that wouldn't have been just as badly affected by the covid restrictions. For example, we could have gone for knockout games in London. But that would have just had the sa involvement cancelled the same as the real tournament did, as the UK did not want the sa contingent entering their country.

Anyway, my point is they were right to give the rainbow Cup a go. It was badly affected by the restrictions and what we ended up with was mediocre to say the least. But hopefully the pro 16 we end up with in September will be all the better for it.
And hopefully they don't call it pro 16.

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Sorry but point one is just completely missing the point. It wasn’t about cancelling the SA involvement in the season at Christmas, there was no SA involvement in the season at the point because that’s when they actually announced it was happening.

As for alternatives, anything I’ve suggested was less unwieldy and would have started far later in the season meaning there was longer to plan, less disruption to the season, and more time to see how Covid and vaccinations were going. I don’t think any new tournament should have been attempted but if they HAD TO then the things I’ve suggested had more chance of happening and would have been better for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

This version didn’t work, don’t forget that when you’re thinking about alternatives. And it’s not just that it didn’t work, it was never going to work.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by fourthirtythree »

Oldschool wrote: June 9th, 2021, 6:11 pm
fourthirtythree wrote: June 9th, 2021, 6:08 pm The competition itself was an utter farce from beginning to end. If it in any way contributed to us and others keeping going it was a necessary evil but I had no interest in it

Move on. I mean it's not like I'll be watching the final or anything, I'll probably have DIY to do.
Perhaps Leinster losing to Munster in the first round of matches influenced your lack of interest.
Read about it here. Was watching a movie with my wife.

It was pretty good IIRC.

I enjoy A games and might even go to a friendly, knowing It's just a laugh for the spectators, but exhibition tournaments are a jokeshop.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Logorrhea »

fourthirtythree wrote: June 10th, 2021, 10:37 am exhibition tournaments are a jokeshop.
Yeah very much agree. There were some good games throughout the event, but none of them meant anything. My season ended with the HEC loss.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by fourthirtythree »

Logorrhea wrote: June 10th, 2021, 11:28 am
fourthirtythree wrote: June 10th, 2021, 10:37 am exhibition tournaments are a jokeshop.
Yeah very much agree. There were some good games throughout the event, but none of them meant anything. My season ended with the HEC loss.
Real Madrid play Shamrock Rovers and Celtic in the yada yada cup. Nice day out with some beer and the kids get a run out in the big boys strip but it doesn't deserve recording for posterity.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Flash Gordon »

LeRouxIsPHat wrote: June 9th, 2021, 4:13 pm
Flash Gordon wrote: June 9th, 2021, 4:03 pm
Dave Cahill wrote: June 9th, 2021, 11:16 am The Pro14 and Rainbow Cup this season have been a farrago. Games called off and not refixed, competition structure constantly changing, teams and players looking uninterested, players being pulled to protect the 6 Nations/Lions/Champions Cup, no fans. A complete shambles.

A completely necessary shambles though. If we have professional rugby in Ireland next season it is because of this shambles. The IRFU are considered (and often envied) for their fiscal rectitude. They have managed a minority sport in a country with a small population and significant competition, both native and on our neighbouring Island, in a way that has turned a profit and kept the stars of that sport in Ireland. Irelands 6N games inhabit the upper reaches of the the top 10 TV ratings every year, Leinster can pretty much fill the national stadium a couple of times a year, the game is expanding at grassroots level (two new clubs affiliated to the Munster Branch this week) - yes, the AIL has become the squeezed middle, but that can be fixed. And they are skint. The IRFU have furloughed, laid off, short timed staff. They have drawn down government assistance, CVC money. And it's all gone. The only thing keeping Professional rugby in Ireland alive is the shambles that is Pro14 and the Rainbow Cup. Without the South Africans and their Supersport rand, next season we'd be the ovoid FAI.

There are positives though. Firstly we have what the Top14 and the Premiership would kill for, what the Heineken and Champions Cup would die for. We have a cross hemisphere competition. The champions of the northern hemisphere competition will take on the champions of the southern hemisphere competition in a Grand Final. Never mind the quality, never mind Trevisio, feel the ad-buys and count the cash. And the future. This may be a bit kak right now, but next year and in following years, when a bit of normality has returned and we're playing the Bulls in the RDS while Munster take on the Sharks this year will be forgotten. But this year is what will make those years possible
100% correct! Great post Dave.
You mentioned money on the first page so given that you've agreed with Dave's post I'm curious about your answer to these questions. Why did the tournament have to be in this format? Why couldn't a different format have meant the money was paid? And do you know how much we'd have made if we had had a regular season, or potentially had a smaller cup comp with crowds (e.g. a knockout tournament with 16 teams based in London for a month) or other alternatives such as offering that Leinster and Munster play SA in SA for warmup matches?

People being so wedded to this idea and thinking there were no alternatives and no choice is really blowing my mind here.

Edit: London obviously a stupid suggestion considering the nature of the tournament but somewhere else in the UK.
There was a contractual obligation to play the Rainbow cup as part of the Pro 16 contract. You don't play it, the contract doesn't happen. Playing the Boks has nothing to do with the Super Rugby Franchises so is a bit of a red herring, also wouldn't have worked out as we know. Why would they want to play us anyway? Maybe they could have reformatted and clearly this solution wasn't optimal but it got us over the line on the contractual obligations. If we hadn't the contract was null and void. I'd also add that I'd give the organisors some slack given the unbelievable volatility of the playing environment.

Given that Leinster were taking pay cuts and making redundancies and given the perilous state of IRFU finances, this is just one of those things we had to do.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Flash Gordon wrote: June 10th, 2021, 1:10 pm
LeRouxIsPHat wrote: June 9th, 2021, 4:13 pm
Flash Gordon wrote: June 9th, 2021, 4:03 pm

100% correct! Great post Dave.
You mentioned money on the first page so given that you've agreed with Dave's post I'm curious about your answer to these questions. Why did the tournament have to be in this format? Why couldn't a different format have meant the money was paid? And do you know how much we'd have made if we had had a regular season, or potentially had a smaller cup comp with crowds (e.g. a knockout tournament with 16 teams based in London for a month) or other alternatives such as offering that Leinster and Munster play SA in SA for warmup matches?

People being so wedded to this idea and thinking there were no alternatives and no choice is really blowing my mind here.

Edit: London obviously a stupid suggestion considering the nature of the tournament but somewhere else in the UK.
There was a contractual obligation to play the Rainbow cup as part of the Pro 16 contract. You don't play it, the contract doesn't happen. Playing the Boks has nothing to do with the Super Rugby Franchises so is a bit of a red herring, also wouldn't have worked out as we know. Why would they want to play us anyway? Maybe they could have reformatted and clearly this solution wasn't optimal but it got us over the line on the contractual obligations. If we hadn't the contract was null and void. I'd also add that I'd give the organisors some slack given the unbelievable volatility of the playing environment.

Given that Leinster were taking pay cuts and making redundancies and given the perilous state of IRFU finances, this is just one of those things we had to do.
But...we didn’t do it, that’s the point.

Saying we could play SA (or SA clubs as I said earlier in the thread) isn’t a red herring. If part of the argument is that they needed warmup games then there were other ways to do it. As of now they haven’t got any with the Pro14 teams or countries other than one match against Benetton.

Edit: One more thing. I don’t get your point about the contract. It was only drawn up in the autumn when we were in the middle of the pandemic with no obvious end in sight, so for that to say a tournament had to happen when it did is incompetence. In the end the tournament didn’t actually happen as intended anyway so not sure why you think it had to stuck to so rigidly and the payment of 6m was still given out.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Flash Gordon »

Contract was to play the tournament. They reformatted the tournament, admittedly in a way that wasn't ideal, but the tournament was played. You have obligations to sponsors and to the franchises and this was the way to do it. The contract was negotiated over a (very lengthy) period of time. You don't seriously think they threw it together in Autumn do you?
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

I absolutely think it was only drawn up in the autumn. SA only announced that they were leaving Super Rugby in September and the plan was to play a normal Pro14 season until the rainbow cup was announced.

The only way I’d accept this at all is if it was drawn up in December 2019 before we had ever heard of Covid and your excuses for the incompetence of those who organised this seems to indicate that you think it was in place as early as that. Either that or you know someone involved.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Dexter »

It has indeed been a farce, possibly a financially necessary farce, but it was only acknowledged as a farce by the Irish press when Munster didn't reach the final!
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by SoupyNorman »

Dexter wrote: June 10th, 2021, 11:15 pm It has indeed been a farce, possibly a financially necessary farce, but it was only acknowledged as a farce by the Irish press when Munster didn't reach the final!
Sure a lot were saying Munster still had qualification in their own hands after the defeat to Connacht.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by outcast eddie »

Is it just coincidence that most of Leinster's games were late on a Friday night during the RC while the SA teams seemed to get prime time Saturday afternoon slots?

Population of SA 60 million
Population of Ireland 5 million
Population of Scotland 5.5 million
Population of Wales 3.2 million
Population of Italy...ok 60 million but I suspect viewing figures for rugby are similar, or less than, the other Pro 14 nations.

I guess we are suddenly a small fish in a big pond

I hope this trend for late night scheduling does not continue.
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Dexter »

SoupyNorman wrote: June 11th, 2021, 12:58 am
Dexter wrote: June 10th, 2021, 11:15 pm It has indeed been a farce, possibly a financially necessary farce, but it was only acknowledged as a farce by the Irish press when Munster didn't reach the final!
Sure a lot were saying Munster still had qualification in their own hands after the defeat to Connacht.
True. I thought that was pretty disrespectful, or maybe just ignorant of the results....
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Laighin Break »

outcast eddie wrote: June 11th, 2021, 2:48 pm Is it just coincidence that most of Leinster's games were late on a Friday night during the RC while the SA teams seemed to get prime time Saturday afternoon slots?

Population of SA 60 million
Population of Ireland 5 million
Population of Scotland 5.5 million
Population of Wales 3.2 million
Population of Italy...ok 60 million but I suspect viewing figures for rugby are similar, or less than, the other Pro 14 nations.

I guess we are suddenly a small fish in a big pond

I hope this trend for late night scheduling does not continue.
Think you're excluding a considerable northern chunk of Ireland in your population figures there
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Re: is the Rainbow Cup still going ahead?

Post by Morf »

outcast eddie wrote: June 11th, 2021, 2:48 pm Is it just coincidence that most of Leinster's games were late on a Friday night during the RC while the SA teams seemed to get prime time Saturday afternoon slots?

Population of SA 60 million
Population of Ireland 5 million
Population of Scotland 5.5 million
Population of Wales 3.2 million
Population of Italy...ok 60 million but I suspect viewing figures for rugby are similar, or less than, the other Pro 14 nations.

I guess we are suddenly a small fish in a big pond

I hope this trend for late night scheduling does not continue.
From what I've heard the population of SA is a big guess because most of those sent out into the really rural areas didn't bother their hole going to every tiny village and guessed themselves.

And the much bigger issue that most of the inhabitants of SA couldn't give much of a flying feck about rugby compared to soccer. Just like Italy.
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