Enforcer Second-Row Options

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Dave Cahill
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Dave Cahill »

carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 7:06 am

It does come down to money. If it didn't then why did munster get snyman and dda? They knew they needed world class players to improve. They couldn't do that with Irish players so they bought 2 world cup winners. We are arguing about bringing in 1 world class overseas player. Its double standards unfortunately. The IRFU and nucifora in particular seem desperate to get munster back to the summit of European rugby. At our expense. Its beyond embarrassing.
Money (in the normal non-COVIDworld run of things) isn't the issue. Firstly, have the Leinster coaching team ever shown any sign whatsoever than they want to sign this kind of player? No, they haven't. Secondly, and more importantly, there's the opportunity cost of such a signing. What do we, and more importantly to the IRFU - the national team, lose elsewhere by making this signing. In Munster's case, signing RGS and DDA had nothing like this attached. Munster have one current senior international lock,one promising academy lock, and Kleyn. RGS is not going to be a blocker, coz there is no one really to block. Leinster have Ryan, Baird, Dunne plus Toner, Maloney (and Fardy). There would be a real cost to the national team. Similar with DDA - Munster have Farrell and maybe Sean French, we have the first choice international pairing, plus half a dozen others.
Its not double standards, its the exact same standard the IRFU have always applied. Nationalmannschaft uber alles. Whether thats directly or indirectly. When Leinster were dropping off a bit we got a world cup winning side switching prop, the best non all black in New Zealand and the force of nature that was Rocky Elson - similarly for Ulster a couple of years later, they got Pienaar, Muller, Wannenburg, Afoa and (eventually) Piutau. Even Connacht got Bundee Aki. Those signings weren't made so that the teams could get to European finals, they were made so the national team players could play at the highest sub-international level (HEC knockouts) to be ready for international rugby.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

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Ein Hoch auf die Nationalmannschaft! Grün vor blau!!! (irony alert)

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by RoboProp »

Logorrhea wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 10:22 pm
carlow man wrote:
May 3rd, 2021, 6:26 pm
How is it pure fantasy?
It was the premise of the post wasn't it?
Well, as it's pure fantasy. We jump in the DeLorean hit 88 and bring forward a young Paddy Johns and introduce him to modern S&C
"you're not here to fix teeth Paddy, you're here to knock em out"
and with that silly season was underway

We just signed Dev for a year. Have Molony and Dunne for when RyRy are on Ireland duty. We're not getting a second row
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by carlow man »

Thats fine. Just dont expect us to win Europe next year is all. Our current second rows aren't good enough at the business end of Europe, maybe JR excluded. That's fine if we just want to get to quarters or semi finals but it wont get us a fifth star as every other side is spending money on the top level players. I didn't say we are getting a second row. I need we need a second row.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by carlow man »

Dave Cahill wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 8:41 am
carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 7:06 am

It does come down to money. If it didn't then why did munster get snyman and dda? They knew they needed world class players to improve. They couldn't do that with Irish players so they bought 2 world cup winners. We are arguing about bringing in 1 world class overseas player. Its double standards unfortunately. The IRFU and nucifora in particular seem desperate to get munster back to the summit of European rugby. At our expense. Its beyond embarrassing.
Money (in the normal non-COVIDworld run of things) isn't the issue. Firstly, have the Leinster coaching team ever shown any sign whatsoever than they want to sign this kind of player? No, they haven't. Secondly, and more importantly, there's the opportunity cost of such a signing. What do we, and more importantly to the IRFU - the national team, lose elsewhere by making this signing. In Munster's case, signing RGS and DDA had nothing like this attached. Munster have one current senior international lock,one promising academy lock, and Kleyn. RGS is not going to be a blocker, coz there is no one really to block. Leinster have Ryan, Baird, Dunne plus Toner, Maloney (and Fardy). There would be a real cost to the national team. Similar with DDA - Munster have Farrell and maybe Sean French, we have the first choice international pairing, plus half a dozen others.
Its not double standards, its the exact same standard the IRFU have always applied. Nationalmannschaft uber alles. Whether thats directly or indirectly. When Leinster were dropping off a bit we got a world cup winning side switching prop, the best non all black in New Zealand and the force of nature that was Rocky Elson - similarly for Ulster a couple of years later, they got Pienaar, Muller, Wannenburg, Afoa and (eventually) Piutau. Even Connacht got Bundee Aki. Those signings weren't made so that the teams could get to European finals, they were made so the national team players could play at the highest sub-international level (HEC knockouts) to be ready for international rugby.
I think the last few seasons have shown everyone that we are lacking a big nasty second row. If the coaching team didnt think we needed one before, we sure as hell do now.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Hoofhearted »

Buying in muscle is a short term fix and would be a stick id use to beat Munster and French/English teams. We have to be realistic, we cant win the European Cup every year. We need to develop our own players and compete that way. Lets develop Baird and Dunne etc. Yes it will take time and they will make mistakes, but its only a game at the end of the day.

Look at the players we were missing on Sunday, we did very well considering. A team with a fully fit and firing Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors etc and not just back from injury Ryan and Ringrose would have won that game. I think a lack of top class bench was the downfall, not a lack of power per say and that was down to bad luck with injuries not a lack of a quality squad.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Dave Cahill »

carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 10:56 am

I think the last few seasons have shown everyone that we are lacking a big nasty second row. If the coaching team didnt think we needed one before, we sure as hell do now.
No, they haven't. People are reacting to a poor performance and focusing on the most obvious aspect.

If we had Victor Matfield and Brodie Retallick in their primes in our second row on Sunday and we played like that, we'd still have lost and still have lost the same way. We didn't lose because we are lacking a big nasty second row, we lost for a whole bunch of reasons, one of the side effects (but not the cause) of which was that we allowed their big ball carriers carry under no pressure. We let them play their game, their way, under no stress whatsoever. You will lose to any decent opposition if you do that, no matter what size they are.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by RoboProp »

Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:09 am
Buying in muscle is a short term fix and would be a stick id use to beat Munster and French/English teams. We have to be realistic, we cant win the European Cup every year. We need to develop our own players and compete that way. Lets develop Baird and Dunne etc. Yes it will take time and they will make mistakes, but its only a game at the end of the day.

Look at the players we were missing on Sunday, we did very well considering. A team with a fully fit and firing Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors etc and not just back from injury Ryan and Ringrose would have won that game. I think a lack of top class bench was the downfall, not a lack of power per say and that was down to bad luck with injuries not a lack of a quality squad.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Flash Gordon »

Dave Cahill wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:10 am
carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 10:56 am

I think the last few seasons have shown everyone that we are lacking a big nasty second row. If the coaching team didnt think we needed one before, we sure as hell do now.
No, they haven't. People are reacting to a poor performance and focusing on the most obvious aspect.

If we had Victor Matfield and Brodie Retallick in their primes in our second row on Sunday and we played like that, we'd still have lost and still have lost the same way. We didn't lose because we are lacking a big nasty second row, we lost for a whole bunch of reasons, one of the side effects (but not the cause) of which was that we allowed their big ball carriers carry under no pressure. We let them play their game, their way, under no stress whatsoever. You will lose to any decent opposition if you do that, no matter what size they are.
And we gave them the ball repeatedly. Giving the ball EASILY to one of the best teams in Europe at using the ball wasn't a great tactic. Against Exeter we didn't give them the chance to out muscle us because we kept the ball. Nothing wrong with kicking by the way, you just have to make it purposeful. Keeping the ball where possible but mixing it up chipping the rush defence, kicking the ball to the corners into the sun, kicking for territory and pressuring their creaking lineout. Instead Luke's box kicking was shocking - not like Ross or Lowe can't kick! For me, the way the half back partnership didn't work was a critical component of why we lost. Nothing a lock could do about that. What's more, our world class lock kept getting himself isolated which with the breakdown laws as they are was crazy.

We also have locks coming through and I'm not sure where people think the money is going to come from, our players and staff have been taking pay cuts to keep the ship afloat. If we were going to sign a lock I'd personally prefer to bring Thornbury back to Dublin, think that benefits both Leinster and Ireland more.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Flash Gordon »

RoboProp wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:44 am
Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:09 am
Buying in muscle is a short term fix and would be a stick id use to beat Munster and French/English teams. We have to be realistic, we cant win the European Cup every year. We need to develop our own players and compete that way. Lets develop Baird and Dunne etc. Yes it will take time and they will make mistakes, but its only a game at the end of the day.

Look at the players we were missing on Sunday, we did very well considering. A team with a fully fit and firing Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors etc and not just back from injury Ryan and Ringrose would have won that game. I think a lack of top class bench was the downfall, not a lack of power per say and that was down to bad luck with injuries not a lack of a quality squad.
Good first post. Level headed. You'll do well around these parts
Agreed. This was our bench in Bilbao

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Andrew Porter
19. Rhys Ruddock
20. Jack Conan
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Joey Carbery
23. Rory O’Loughlin

Not many of those lads would weaken you and I don't think Josh made the squad that day.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Dexter »

Good to see a little more perspective after the inevitable overreaction post game.
I'm staying optimistic for the future. Even having the SA teams in the league should help us. It'll make it harder to win the league but could/should make us better prepared for Europe.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by cormac »

Flash Gordon wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:52 am
RoboProp wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:44 am
Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:09 am
Buying in muscle is a short term fix and would be a stick id use to beat Munster and French/English teams. We have to be realistic, we cant win the European Cup every year. We need to develop our own players and compete that way. Lets develop Baird and Dunne etc. Yes it will take time and they will make mistakes, but its only a game at the end of the day.

Look at the players we were missing on Sunday, we did very well considering. A team with a fully fit and firing Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors etc and not just back from injury Ryan and Ringrose would have won that game. I think a lack of top class bench was the downfall, not a lack of power per say and that was down to bad luck with injuries not a lack of a quality squad.
Good first post. Level headed. You'll do well around these parts
Agreed. This was our bench in Bilbao

16. James Tracy
17. Jack McGrath
18. Andrew Porter
19. Rhys Ruddock
20. Jack Conan
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Joey Carbery
23. Rory O’Loughlin

Not many of those lads would weaken you and I don't think Josh made the squad that day.
vd Flier was injured
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by LeinsterLeader »

For what its' worth.... I'd take a home draw in the semi-final next time over having to 2 Skeltons in the second row and having to go to anywhere in France (and certain places in England). Away in semi-final in France is just so so hard.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by ronk »

LeinsterLeader wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 12:29 pm
For what its' worth.... I'd take a home draw in the semi-final next time over having to 2 Skeltons in the second row and having to go to anywhere in France (and certain places in England). Away in semi-final in France is just so so hard.
Yeah. Very true. If we play better, we win.

A monster lock might have helped us play better. So would being at home.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by backrower8 »

Dave Cahill wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 8:41 am
carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 7:06 am

It does come down to money. If it didn't then why did munster get snyman and dda? They knew they needed world class players to improve. They couldn't do that with Irish players so they bought 2 world cup winners. We are arguing about bringing in 1 world class overseas player. Its double standards unfortunately. The IRFU and nucifora in particular seem desperate to get munster back to the summit of European rugby. At our expense. Its beyond embarrassing.
Money (in the normal non-COVIDworld run of things) isn't the issue. Firstly, have the Leinster coaching team ever shown any sign whatsoever than they want to sign this kind of player? No, they haven't. Secondly, and more importantly, there's the opportunity cost of such a signing. What do we, and more importantly to the IRFU - the national team, lose elsewhere by making this signing. In Munster's case, signing RGS and DDA had nothing like this attached. Munster have one current senior international lock,one promising academy lock, and Kleyn. RGS is not going to be a blocker, coz there is no one really to block. Leinster have Ryan, Baird, Dunne plus Toner, Maloney (and Fardy). There would be a real cost to the national team. Similar with DDA - Munster have Farrell and maybe Sean French, we have the first choice international pairing, plus half a dozen others.
Its not double standards, its the exact same standard the IRFU have always applied. Nationalmannschaft uber alles. Whether thats directly or indirectly. When Leinster were dropping off a bit we got a world cup winning side switching prop, the best non all black in New Zealand and the force of nature that was Rocky Elson - similarly for Ulster a couple of years later, they got Pienaar, Muller, Wannenburg, Afoa and (eventually) Piutau. Even Connacht got Bundee Aki. Those signings weren't made so that the teams could get to European finals, they were made so the national team players could play at the highest sub-international level (HEC knockouts) to be ready for international rugby.
When? Leinster have signed Hines and Thorn to fill gaps and deliver European Champuions Cup wins on the double - that's when.

As for, 'we are overstocked with second rows': we have RyRy away with Irish camp for large chunks of the year, Toner (a fast fading force) and Dunne and Molony. All 3 will need to tog-out for every PRO16 match while internationals are away and resting. Only Dunne arguably has a shot at developing to wear the green and, if he does, it is probably 3+ years away. Every one of them is lightweight compared to Neilog's list at the start of this thread.

Enough of the puritanical "its all about style" or IRFU conformists, It's not even a close analysis as regards our 2nd row stocks. We need and deserve a large 2nd row unit of pedigree.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by joooooe »

But that's all moot. With Carter, Jenkins and Snyman all in Ireland we won't be allowed to sign one. We can "need", "want" and "deserve" all we like but it's not going to happen. A scrum half, though. That could be made to happen.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by Dave Cahill »

In the decade or so since we signed Hines (and Thorn on a medical joker) the Leinster coaching team has changed at least twice, the NSSSD has come in (and it hasn't gone away you know), the national coaching team has changed at least twice and a High Performance director has been appointed. So to compare now to then you may as well compare bananas and goats. The current Leinster coaching team, and I can't believe I have to make it clear that I mean the current one, have never shown any interest in signing that kind of player.

The provinces exist solely to serve irish rugby. What we want, need or deserve doesn't matter. If it doesn't benefit Ireland, then it won't happen.
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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by backrower8 »

Dave Cahill wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 3:01 pm
In the decade or so since we signed Hines (and Thorn on a medical joker) the Leinster coaching team has changed at least twice, the NSSSD has come in (and it hasn't gone away you know), the national coaching team has changed at least twice and a High Performance director has been appointed. So to compare now to then you may as well compare bananas and goats. The current Leinster coaching team, and I can't believe I have to make it clear that I mean the current one, have never shown any interest in signing that kind of player.

The provinces exist solely to serve irish rugby. What we want, need or deserve doesn't matter. If it doesn't benefit Ireland, then it won't happen.
Yes, yes you do need to specify that you think there is no connection between coaching tickets in the one club in the same decade. The Liverpool Boot Room now applies in Leinster whereby players move to coaching (Leo, Felipe, Fogs, Girv), players who witnessed or were part of decisions by coaches all under the same CEO for the last couple of decades.

Leo has shown his propensity as a coach to go for overseas signings - Lowe, Fardy, Alaalatoa

Your 'bananas and goats' says that you doth protest too much. Continuity of culture from Cheika to Scmidt to....Leo and Stu dictates that Joe was no goat then and Leo is no banana now.

As for the Irish provinces existing for Irish rugby - Munster are driving a cart and horses through that and Ulster did it before with Afrikaaners. Rules can be bent....but Nucifora must be broken/go before we get any flexibility.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by backrower8 »

RoboProp wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:44 am
Hoofhearted wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 11:09 am
Buying in muscle is a short term fix and would be a stick id use to beat Munster and French/English teams. We have to be realistic, we cant win the European Cup every year. We need to develop our own players and compete that way. Lets develop Baird and Dunne etc. Yes it will take time and they will make mistakes, but its only a game at the end of the day.

Look at the players we were missing on Sunday, we did very well considering. A team with a fully fit and firing Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors etc and not just back from injury Ryan and Ringrose would have won that game. I think a lack of top class bench was the downfall, not a lack of power per say and that was down to bad luck with injuries not a lack of a quality squad.
Good first post. Level headed. You'll do well around these parts
1. We don't win it every year. We do lose to the same formula for the last 3 consecutive years though.

2. It is not just a game, it is a business that needs to be successful to live, survive and thrive and is 90% resourced to do so. We are talking about the various ways to bridge the last 10%.

3. You referenced Leavy, Sexton, Deegan, Cronin, Connors as big solutions to our squad issues on the day. Only 2 of the five are relevant as Cronin is not even first or second choice Hooker and we would only have had one of the 3 backrowers, that you mention, involved based on form. Same applies if you add Doris to the mix. We didn't lose the game at back row. We lost for a range of reasons:

A. With front 5 power the main one
B. Half backs the second, and
C. Lack of precision on the day also a telling factor (big moments with Baird and McGrath try chances).

The Lowe yellow was very surprising.

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Re: Enforcer Second-Row Options

Post by CiaranIrl »

carlow man wrote:
May 4th, 2021, 10:52 am
Thats fine. Just dont expect us to win Europe next year is all. Our current second rows aren't good enough at the business end of Europe, maybe JR excluded. That's fine if we just want to get to quarters or semi finals but it wont get us a fifth star as every other side is spending money on the top level players. I didn't say we are getting a second row. I need we need a second row.
The way you say that, you would swear it was the people on this message board preventing any signings.
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