6 Nations 2021

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Oldschool
Cian Healy
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Oldschool »

backrower8 wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 9:23 pm
Pat Lam or Andy Friend are our way to a brave, successful new future.

We need a once in 145 years re-engineering of the Irish style to a Japanese-French hybrid and away from bish, bosh, ruck.
We need things to change that's for sure however we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Ireland has been relatively successful in the professional era and a lot more successful than in the amateur era.
So we need to identify the issues that need to be addressed while holding on to the good things.
For example it's fair to say that nearly everyone posting here thinks that the system of Central Contracts handcuffs the coaches hands and needs re-engineering.
It results in sub optimal squad selection and hinders succession planning.
Is there a lack of ambition underlining our approach?
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Oldschool
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Oldschool »

JB1973 wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:56 am
Lam is the stand out coach in Europe right now for me, won the pro 14 with Connacht and looks like he will win the premiership with Bristol

His teams play great rugby, the players seem to love him and he carries himself well, just seems a proper leader.

I'm hoping wales ditch pivac and appoint him in the summer

Robertson cv with Canterbury is excellent, he seems a bit miffed he missed out on the NZ job and I reckon he'd jump at the chance to coach a major test nation (unless he thinks the ab's are going to ditch foster shortly)

Someone no body seems to mention is Baxter at Exeter done a great job wins trophy's and seems able to get the best out of players of all ranges of ability, not sure he'd leave but he must be one of the best coaches out there
Pivac's biggest problem is Gattie.
That's a very high ceiling for comparison.
Wales have to go through a major transition because Gattie's players are at or near the end of their careers.
Add in the fact the WRU invested on clearing the debt on the Millennium Stadium to the detriment of the game itself and it is going to take time, no matter who the coach is, to get Wales back up to trophy winning levels.
On the plus side, you (fans) have higher expectations than Irish fans and that feeds into your team's psyche.
Wales this season have a Triple Crown in sight and even in transition the players will respond.
Wales are nearly always better than the sum of their parts, Ireland are the opposite, rarely do we achieve our potential.
If you know how that last bit works please share your secret.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Twist
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6 Nations 2021

Post by Twist »

Andy Farrell is going nowhere because the Union cant afford to change even if they were inclined to.

I really like Farrell as a person and hope he comes good. In my opinion there’s been encouraging signs this year, but we’re still so bloody blunt in attack. Loads of posession with barely any tries to show for it. I think the coach under most pressure there is Mike Catt, especially if ROG is interested & affordable.

For what its worth, if we were looking for a new head coach then Scott Robertson and Pat Lam would be joint top of my list
Last edited by Twist on February 18th, 2021, 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dexter
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Dexter »

Twist wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 12:35 pm
Andy Farrell is going nowhere because the Union cant afford to change even if they were inclined to.

I really like Farrell as a person and hope he comes good. In my opinion there’s been encouraging signs this year, but we’re still so bloody blunt in attack. Loads of posession with bary any tries to show for it. I think the coach under most pressure there is Mike Catt, especially if ROG is interested & affordable.

For what its worth, if we were looking for a new head coach then Scott Robertson and Pat Lam would be joint top of my list
Agree.
At the same time, I like the idea of McFarland and Larkham, as it gets them out of Ulster and Munster too :wink:
Dont Panic!

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Twist
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Twist »

Dexter wrote:
Twist wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 12:35 pm
Andy Farrell is going nowhere because the Union cant afford to change even if they were inclined to.

I really like Farrell as a person and hope he comes good. In my opinion there’s been encouraging signs this year, but we’re still so bloody blunt in attack. Loads of posession with bary any tries to show for it. I think the coach under most pressure there is Mike Catt, especially if ROG is interested & affordable.

For what its worth, if we were looking for a new head coach then Scott Robertson and Pat Lam would be joint top of my list
Agree.
At the same time, I like the idea of McFarland and Larkham, as it gets them out of Ulster and Munster too :wink:
A win-win situation!

JB1973
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by JB1973 »

Oldschool wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 11:06 am
JB1973 wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:56 am
Lam is the stand out coach in Europe right now for me, won the pro 14 with Connacht and looks like he will win the premiership with Bristol

His teams play great rugby, the players seem to love him and he carries himself well, just seems a proper leader.

I'm hoping wales ditch pivac and appoint him in the summer

Robertson cv with Canterbury is excellent, he seems a bit miffed he missed out on the NZ job and I reckon he'd jump at the chance to coach a major test nation (unless he thinks the ab's are going to ditch foster shortly)

Someone no body seems to mention is Baxter at Exeter done a great job wins trophy's and seems able to get the best out of players of all ranges of ability, not sure he'd leave but he must be one of the best coaches out there
Pivac's biggest problem is Gattie.
That's a very high ceiling for comparison.
Wales have to go through a major transition because Gattie's players are at or near the end of their careers.
Add in the fact the WRU invested on clearing the debt on the Millennium Stadium to the detriment of the game itself and it is going to take time, no matter who the coach is, to get Wales back up to trophy winning levels.
On the plus side, you (fans) have higher expectations than Irish fans and that feeds into your team's psyche.
Wales this season have a Triple Crown in sight and even in transition the players will respond.
Wales are nearly always better than the sum of their parts, Ireland are the opposite, rarely do we achieve our potential.
If you know how that last bit works please share your secret.

helps when the opposition get men sent off, I have a uncomfortable feeling when we play a full game vs 15 men the results will alter :(

Ruckedtobits
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Oldschool wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 10:23 am
backrower8 wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 9:23 pm
Pat Lam or Andy Friend are our way to a brave, successful new future.

We need a once in 145 years re-engineering of the Irish style to a Japanese-French hybrid and away from bish, bosh, ruck.
We need things to change that's for sure however we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Ireland has been relatively successful in the professional era and a lot more successful than in the amateur era.
So we need to identify the issues that need to be addressed while holding on to the good things.
For example it's fair to say that nearly everyone posting here thinks that the system of Central Contracts handcuffs the coaches hands and needs re-engineering.
It results in sub optimal squad selection and hinders succession planning.
Is there a lack of ambition underlining our approach?
Partially agree about Central Contracts. The problem is if you ditch them, can Provinces afford to create the necessary differential to hold onto key players without aliknating a large proportion of their Squad?

The answer in the past was No. They also found the same problem in the Premiership. It's not easy to solve and it's not like other sports. Rugby is vitually the only field sport (possibly also Cricket) in which the highest earning level is international not Club.

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ronk
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by ronk »

I don’t see the problem with central contracts. They’re not perfect and they get blame when people don’t like selections. Are there really that many genuine examples of guys getting picked because of the contract?

Players like SOB and Henshaw played uneconomic numbers of games in recent years, for Leinster. That would be a factor in a provinces willingness to prioritise investment but in Henshaw you’re also talking about a guy who’s switching positions for the benefit of the Irish team.

Sexton has been out of Leinster’s price range. We can manage Furlong and Porter in the same squad only because of central contracts.

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munster#1
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by munster#1 »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:06 pm
Oldschool wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 10:23 am
backrower8 wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 9:23 pm
Pat Lam or Andy Friend are our way to a brave, successful new future.

We need a once in 145 years re-engineering of the Irish style to a Japanese-French hybrid and away from bish, bosh, ruck.
We need things to change that's for sure however we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Ireland has been relatively successful in the professional era and a lot more successful than in the amateur era.
So we need to identify the issues that need to be addressed while holding on to the good things.
For example it's fair to say that nearly everyone posting here thinks that the system of Central Contracts handcuffs the coaches hands and needs re-engineering.
It results in sub optimal squad selection and hinders succession planning.
Is there a lack of ambition underlining our approach?
Partially agree about Central Contracts. The problem is if you ditch them, can Provinces afford to create the necessary differential to hold onto key players without aliknating a large proportion of their Squad?

The answer in the past was No. They also found the same problem in the Premiership. It's not easy to solve and it's not like other sports. Rugby is vitually the only field sport (possibly also Cricket) in which the highest earning level is international not Club.
The central contract program should be a live program where it is continuously reviewed and improved to match a changing landscape.

Provincial fans need to understand that the provinces were created in their professional form based on an existing structure for one reason, and that was to create professional players for the Irish team.

The provinces are little more than academies for the national team, and it the national team have little care about how successful their franchises are as long as they provide them with players.

If the central contract program were scrapped, then no doubt the provinces would lose a large number of quality players.
Looking at Leinster as an example, for Leinster to retain the likes of Furlong, Healy, Ryan, Sexton etc. with their own budget, then they would have to increase their income to the tune of 3-4 million, which is not going to happen.

Thankfully, the current franchise structure has provided all 4 provinces with silverware, with 3 of the 4 being crowned as European champions, which was definitely unimaginable back in the 90s when I was following Shannon in the AIL.

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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

munster#1 wrote:
February 19th, 2021, 1:57 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:06 pm
Oldschool wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 10:23 am

We need things to change that's for sure however we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Ireland has been relatively successful in the professional era and a lot more successful than in the amateur era.
So we need to identify the issues that need to be addressed while holding on to the good things.
For example it's fair to say that nearly everyone posting here thinks that the system of Central Contracts handcuffs the coaches hands and needs re-engineering.
It results in sub optimal squad selection and hinders succession planning.
Is there a lack of ambition underlining our approach?
Partially agree about Central Contracts. The problem is if you ditch them, can Provinces afford to create the necessary differential to hold onto key players without aliknating a large proportion of their Squad?

The answer in the past was No. They also found the same problem in the Premiership. It's not easy to solve and it's not like other sports. Rugby is vitually the only field sport (possibly also Cricket) in which the highest earning level is international not Club.
The central contract program should be a live program where it is continuously reviewed and improved to match a changing landscape.

Provincial fans need to understand that the provinces were created in their professional form based on an existing structure for one reason, and that was to create professional players for the Irish team.

The provinces are little more than academies for the national team, and it the national team have little care about how successful their franchises are as long as they provide them with players.

If the central contract program were scrapped, then no doubt the provinces would lose a large number of quality players.
Looking at Leinster as an example, for Leinster to retain the likes of Furlong, Healy, Ryan, Sexton etc. with their own budget, then they would have to increase their income to the tune of 3-4 million, which is not going to happen.

Thankfully, the current franchise structure has provided all 4 provinces with silverware, with 3 of the 4 being crowned as European champions, which was definitely unimaginable back in the 90s when I was following Shannon in the AIL.
Honestly not having a dig, but I always pictured you as a cookie...

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munster#1
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by munster#1 »

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
February 19th, 2021, 8:06 pm
munster#1 wrote:
February 19th, 2021, 1:57 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:06 pm


Partially agree about Central Contracts. The problem is if you ditch them, can Provinces afford to create the necessary differential to hold onto key players without aliknating a large proportion of their Squad?

The answer in the past was No. They also found the same problem in the Premiership. It's not easy to solve and it's not like other sports. Rugby is vitually the only field sport (possibly also Cricket) in which the highest earning level is international not Club.
The central contract program should be a live program where it is continuously reviewed and improved to match a changing landscape.

Provincial fans need to understand that the provinces were created in their professional form based on an existing structure for one reason, and that was to create professional players for the Irish team.

The provinces are little more than academies for the national team, and it the national team have little care about how successful their franchises are as long as they provide them with players.

If the central contract program were scrapped, then no doubt the provinces would lose a large number of quality players.
Looking at Leinster as an example, for Leinster to retain the likes of Furlong, Healy, Ryan, Sexton etc. with their own budget, then they would have to increase their income to the tune of 3-4 million, which is not going to happen.

Thankfully, the current franchise structure has provided all 4 provinces with silverware, with 3 of the 4 being crowned as European champions, which was definitely unimaginable back in the 90s when I was following Shannon in the AIL.
Honestly not having a dig, but I always pictured you as a cookie...
That’s like saying no offence but you are fat and ugly
:lol: :lol:

No, Shannon through and through.

heno
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by heno »

I assume when people say scrap the central contracts, they don't mean and then spend the money on brandy and cigars. Keep the money in the system but come up with a different finding model, be it match bonuses, tournament bonuses, or more funding for the provinces, etc. so that current form is more easily rewarded rather than commiting money to a smaller group of players a long time into the future.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


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ronk
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by ronk »

heno wrote:
February 19th, 2021, 8:47 pm
I assume when people say scrap the central contracts, they don't mean and then spend the money on brandy and cigars. Keep the money in the system but come up with a different finding model, be it match bonuses, tournament bonuses, or more funding for the provinces, etc. so that current form is more easily rewarded rather than commiting money to a smaller group of players a long time into the future.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

But that’s the whole point of central contracts, ensure that a small pool of elite players get competitive contracts to stay in Ireland during the prime of their careers. There’s a little messiness at the edges, the system has been refined a few times.

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blockhead
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by blockhead »

Ireland is the only rugby nation on the planet that has managed (up to now) to resist massive player haemorrhage to the Top 14 and to the english prem.
We must be doing something right.
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sunshiner1
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by sunshiner1 »

Two more trys by Alex Wootton for Connacht. If he was playing for any other team but Connacht I'd imagine he'd be in the Irish Squad by now. I know this is a weird year with Covid but surely he has to be worth a look soon?

leinsterforever
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by leinsterforever »

What sets him apart is that he's a threat from long range. How many Irish players have demonstrated an ability to score from virtually their own goal line? I would say his tackling needs to improve before he'd get a shot with Ireland.

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Dave Cahill
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Dave Cahill »

Ireland Squad Round 3 2021 Guinness Six Nations Championship
Backs
Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 30 caps
Billy Burns (Ulster) 5 caps
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 12 caps
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon) uncapped
Andrew Conway (Munster/Garryowen) 24 caps
Shane Daly (Munster/Cork Con) 1 cap
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 90 caps
Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 14 caps
Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 7 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 49 caps
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 8 caps
Jordan Larmour (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 26 caps
James Lowe (Leinster) 4 caps
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 4 caps
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 88 caps
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD) 32 caps
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 96 caps

Forwards
Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University) uncapped
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 19 caps
Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 4 caps
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 17 caps
Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 7 caps
Ultan Dillane (Connacht/Corinthians) 18 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 46 caps
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 106 caps
Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 5 caps
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 60 caps
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 18 caps
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 8 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians) 40 caps
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch) uncapped
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 34 caps
Rhys Ruddock (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 27 caps
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 33 caps
CJ Stander (Munster/Shannon) 48 caps
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 30 caps
I have Bumbleflex

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Morf
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Morf »

Whether you think Earls or Lowe or Conway or Larmour are subpar it just seems odd to keep McCloskey when he's not getting within an asses roar of Henrose/Aki and won't be subbing.

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Flash Gordon
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Flash Gordon »

munster#1 wrote:
February 19th, 2021, 1:57 pm
Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 9:06 pm
Oldschool wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 10:23 am

We need things to change that's for sure however we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Ireland has been relatively successful in the professional era and a lot more successful than in the amateur era.
So we need to identify the issues that need to be addressed while holding on to the good things.
For example it's fair to say that nearly everyone posting here thinks that the system of Central Contracts handcuffs the coaches hands and needs re-engineering.
It results in sub optimal squad selection and hinders succession planning.
Is there a lack of ambition underlining our approach?
Partially agree about Central Contracts. The problem is if you ditch them, can Provinces afford to create the necessary differential to hold onto key players without aliknating a large proportion of their Squad?

The answer in the past was No. They also found the same problem in the Premiership. It's not easy to solve and it's not like other sports. Rugby is vitually the only field sport (possibly also Cricket) in which the highest earning level is international not Club.
The central contract program should be a live program where it is continuously reviewed and improved to match a changing landscape.

Provincial fans need to understand that the provinces were created in their professional form based on an existing structure for one reason, and that was to create professional players for the Irish team.

The provinces are little more than academies for the national team, and it the national team have little care about how successful their franchises are as long as they provide them with players.

If the central contract program were scrapped, then no doubt the provinces would lose a large number of quality players.
Looking at Leinster as an example, for Leinster to retain the likes of Furlong, Healy, Ryan, Sexton etc. with their own budget, then they would have to increase their income to the tune of 3-4 million, which is not going to happen.

Thankfully, the current franchise structure has provided all 4 provinces with silverware, with 3 of the 4 being crowned as European champions, which was definitely unimaginable back in the 90s when I was following Shannon in the AIL.
The IRFU strategic Plan has always had objectives for the provinces. Understand how revenue comes from the national team primarily but your comment on provinces is not really fair. Ireland and the game of rugby in general would not exist without the provinces.

From an economic perspective we need to follow other sports and move away from a commercial model that relies so heavily on attendances.
Flash ahhhh ahhh, he'll save every one of us

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blockhead
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by blockhead »

Scot/France game could be cancelled
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!

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