6 Nations 2021

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munster#1
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by munster#1 »

Peg Leg wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 10:15 am
When Farrell came to Ireland he implemented a rock solid defensive system. I'd like to have that back, please.
I don’t think that is a system failure.
For most of the tries that we have conceded to date, we have had numbers where they should be, but we have players either missing or falling off of tackles.

Lowe missed 4 of 7 tackles against France, that is not acceptable at international level.
It is a failing in his game, just like in Stockdale’s.

The failure is selecting defensively weak players because we believe that their offensive work outweighs this.

IMO, you should lock in your defence and then build your attack, and not the other way around.

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DartVader
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by DartVader »

Get Knoxy back from his teaching job in Oz and he'll get the backs some new plays!!!
:wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Oldschool
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Oldschool »

munster#1 wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 1:35 pm
Peg Leg wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 10:15 am
When Farrell came to Ireland he implemented a rock solid defensive system. I'd like to have that back, please.
I don’t think that is a system failure.
For most of the tries that we have conceded to date, we have had numbers where they should be, but we have players either missing or falling off of tackles.

Lowe missed 4 of 7 tackles against France, that is not acceptable at international level.
It is a failing in his game, just like in Stockdale’s.

The failure is selecting defensively weak players because we believe that their offensive work outweighs this.

IMO, you should lock in your defence and then build your attack, and not the other way around.
All the good teams look to defend the opposition into a mistake and then kill them on the counter.
That mistake comes in many forms.
France for example were sniffing for the intercept on a few occasions and, perhaps, on a dry day might have got one, it's something we've been prone to against top opposition.
The fear of conceding an intercept could in part explain the conservative, safety first mindset of our backs.
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Ruckedtobits
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Ruckedtobits »

As a sporting nation we certainly hype our winners and crucify our losers. A little realism might in order at this point, based on cold hard facts:

France have played 12 games against top ten ranked rugby nations since 1st Feb 2020. They won 10 of those games and lost 2. One of the losses was against England when they played the Autumn Cup Final without 22 first-choice players (by prior agreement with LNR).

V Eng 24-17 - W
V Ital 35-22. - W
V Wal 27-23 - W
V Sco 28-17 - L
V Ire 35-27 - W
V Wal 38-21 - W
V Fiji 28-0 - W
V Sco 15-22 -W
V Ita 36-5 - W
V Eng* 22-19 -L
V Ita 10-50 - W
V Ire 13-15 - W

We have just lost a game to the most improved nation in world rugby over the past 12 months. No team has conceded fewer points to them over the past 12 months and only the Scots have scored more points against them (28) in those 12 games.

We may not be where we'd like to be, but we are a long way ahead of where some commentators think. For those who doubt that assertion, it's well worth watching the game again - without the emotion but with an analytical mind. The Match Stats don't lie. We did lots of things well and the things we did badly were sometimes caused by strong French pressure.

We had only one bit of good luck all day, Dupont finding Williamse's head 3 metres from our line. For bad luck, think Henderson's blockdown missing 3 Irish players and finding the only Frenchman in a 20 metre circle; think Henderson's almost intercept of their long lineout throw 5 metres from their line; think Lowe's right boot being two sizes smaller.

If we had finished the second half playing like we did in the first half, maybe we'd all feel a bit happier. But, we scored the last 10 points of the game, without reply.

Team sports involve lots of emotion. National team sports in Ireland create emotional involvement. But let's put a little bit of realism up on the table. The 44-phase drop goal win in 2018 was rarer than hen's teeth. Such sequences can't be rehearsed in training or summoned up by willpower.

On Saturday we were missing some players of great experience, Sexton, Murray, O'Mahony, Ryan, Stockdale, Aki - all played in Paris and perhaps some might not play again for Ireland. But France had only three players in their Squad on Saturday who played in 2018. - Thomas, Jallibert and Vaahaminha. Times change, players change, fortune changes. Dan Leavy and Joey Carbury, who were both in that Squad in Paris could tell you how fortunes change.

Italy are next up. Much more difficult to beat than some think, especially in Rome despite the absense of an audience. Irish players and fans should respect what we now face and pick our best team to beat the Italians if we can. New players will be ready when they're ready, not because they are selected against an opponent we don't respect.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Oldschool »

Ruckedtobits wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 6:11 pm
As a sporting nation we certainly hype our winners and crucify our losers. A little realism might in order at this point, based on cold hard facts:

France have played 12 games against top ten ranked rugby nations since 1st Feb 2020. They won 10 of those games and lost 2. One of the losses was against England when they played the Autumn Cup Final without 22 first-choice players (by prior agreement with LNR).

V Eng 24-17 - W
V Ital 35-22. - W
V Wal 27-23 - W
V Sco 28-17 - L
V Ire 35-27 - W
V Wal 38-21 - W
V Fiji 28-0 - W
V Sco 15-22 -W
V Ita 36-5 - W
V Eng* 22-19 -L
V Ita 10-50 - W
V Ire 13-15 - W

We have just lost a game to the most improved nation in world rugby over the past 12 months. No team has conceded fewer points to them over the past 12 months and only the Scots have scored more points against them (28) in those 12 games.

We may not be where we'd like to be, but we are a long way ahead of where some commentators think. For those who doubt that assertion, it's well worth watching the game again - without the emotion but with an analytical mind. The Match Stats don't lie. We did lots of things well and the things we did badly were sometimes caused by strong French pressure.

We had only one bit of good luck all day, Dupont finding Williamse's head 3 metres from our line. For bad luck, think Henderson's blockdown missing 3 Irish players and finding the only Frenchman in a 20 metre circle; think Henderson's almost intercept of their long lineout throw 5 metres from their line; think Lowe's right boot being two sizes smaller.

If we had finished the second half playing like we did in the first half, maybe we'd all feel a bit happier. But, we scored the last 10 points of the game, without reply.

Team sports involve lots of emotion. National team sports in Ireland create emotional involvement. But let's put a little bit of realism up on the table. The 44-phase drop goal win in 2018 was rarer than hen's teeth. Such sequences can't be rehearsed in training or summoned up by willpower.

On Saturday we were missing some players of great experience, Sexton, Murray, O'Mahony, Ryan, Stockdale, Aki - all played in Paris and perhaps some might not play again for Ireland. But France had only three players in their Squad on Saturday who played in 2018. - Thomas, Jallibert and Vaahaminha. Times change, players change, fortune changes. Dan Leavy and Joey Carbury, who were both in that Squad in Paris could tell you how fortunes change.

Italy are next up. Much more difficult to beat than some think, especially in Rome despite the absense of an audience. Irish players and fans should respect what we now face and pick our best team to beat the Italians if we can. New players will be ready when they're ready, not because they are selected against an opponent we don't respect.
Fair comment however if we are so afraid of our own shadows that we can't make one or two experimental selections against Italy then we are on a slippery slope towards undermining any attempt at introducing new talent.
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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

Oldschool wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 9:47 pm
Fan with smartphone wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 9:25 pm
MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 6:59 pm


Leaving aside his defensive flaws....I think Lowe has an abundance of plus points. I always prefer when he's starting for Leinster.
Can't help but wonder if he is too eager to be the hero in defence being new to the green jersey...instead of holding his mark and trusting the guys on the inside.

In the same breath...you maybe right OldSchool. Who would you have in, instead? and would you like to see him dropped from the leinster team as well? or do we have a special strategy to cover his weaknesses in defence?
Agree with this view. You can make a good defender out of anyone. You can’t make an attacker like Lowe so easily.

I also ageee he is trying to make his mark and be the hero yeah. I really feel there is a theme in a lack of composure like that in a lot of areas in the team. Sexton, when captain, has been too hyped himself, feels like he can’t see the wood for the trees; O’Mahony’s clear out. There’s your captain and vice. The Burns kicks, Burns and Ringrose decisions highlighted by Murray kinsella, even Beirne trying to force turnovers in the lineout, some of the penalties given away (the first day moreso). There’s a real air of desperation at times and I’m not sure there’s the need for it. The best players we’ve had have been good when they’ve done the simple things well. Porter, Henshaw, Beirne, Henderson, Keenan. Just cool the hell down. I think we are good but if we are a good team playing really badly, then we are what we are - bad.

I saw some things I liked in the attacking game. We tried to dummy one way off a scrum then used the double playmaker. That has real potential for us, but it ended in just running out of play this time. I also liked the offloads among a trio of forwards in midfield. It’s something you see a lot out of (I think) the highlanders in super rugby. But we weren’t as sharp doing it as France were defending it at the weekend. But that is the way forward for us I really do believe. We have the skills in the pack to play that way. With the platform out forwards are giving us and wrinkles like that, there is the start of a gameplan but not much more than that. As someone said above our attacking game is less than ineffective - it’s actually hurting us at the minute. I don’t think it would take a whole lot to change that though.
As I pointed out already, I was suggesting that i wanted Lowe to go on the Lions tour in the hope that Gattie would sort out his defence.
I wasn't suggesting that Lowe should be dropped by either Ireland or Leinster.
my mistake OS...when you said "go" I didn't realise you meant on the lions tour.
I think we're all in agreement so...Lowe to do some extra curricular on defense.

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outcast eddie
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by outcast eddie »

f%~king depressing!
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Morf »

JB1973 wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 11:13 am
There is one guy who stands out a mile for me, he has a razor sharp rugby brain , was a top class player and would have the respect of everyone in the camp immediately and that is BOD.

Not sure he would want to get involved but I think he would be an ideal backs coach for any rugby side in the world but most of all for Ireland

If not him Glesson at wasps seems to have them playing a very entertaining brand of rugby and scoring lost of trys and he had Salford playing some great rugby when he was part of the set up there
I'd be sceptical. He's never looked to coach or seemed to have deeply studied the game outside his own play or seemed to work incredibly hard to eek out an extra % in his game compared to others. With such natural talent he didn't need to.

Many of the traits that were presented in support Paul O'Connell as a prospective forwards coach haven't been evident in media work or books etc.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Peg Leg »

Morf wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 2:47 am
JB1973 wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 11:13 am
There is one guy who stands out a mile for me, he has a razor sharp rugby brain , was a top class player and would have the respect of everyone in the camp immediately and that is BOD.

Not sure he would want to get involved but I think he would be an ideal backs coach for any rugby side in the world but most of all for Ireland

If not him Glesson at wasps seems to have them playing a very entertaining brand of rugby and scoring lost of trys and he had Salford playing some great rugby when he was part of the set up there
I'd be sceptical. He's never looked to coach or seemed to have deeply studied the game outside his own play or seemed to work incredibly hard to eek out an extra % in his game compared to others. With such natural talent he didn't need to.

Many of the traits that were presented in support Paul O'Connell as a prospective forwards coach haven't been evident in media work or books etc.
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brenno
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by brenno »

blaker wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 9:47 am
the spoofer wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 9:40 am
Lets be honest lads and ladies. Does anyone really think that our coaching set up are capable of getting more out of the Irish squad than Joe did?
Not at all. And I think that’s what underpins the frustration people have. At a macro level, running Wales close, away, with 14 men and losing by 2 v a much better France despite loads of injuries isn’t the end of the world.

But deep down you know that we have regressed quite a bit and the above is kind of papering over the cracks. Our coaching ticket is materially worse than why went before and, arguably, worse than 2 of the 4 provinces while individual unit components of Conn and Ulster are better too.
I'd go further than that - the Ireland coaching team is arguably weaker than any of the provinces and definitely weaker in some of the key positions. Look at the lineups.

Ireland - Farrell, Catt, Easterby, Fogarty, O'Connell
Leinster - Cullen, Lancaster, Contepomi, McBryde
Munster - Van Graan, Larkham, Ferreira, Rowntree
Ulster - McFarland, Peel, Grant, Payne
Connahct - Friend, Carolan, Duffy, Wilkins

I'd have any of the provincial head coaches ahead of Farrell, I'd have any of the provincial attack coaches ahead of Catt, I'd have any of the provincial defence coaches ahead of Easterby. It's only up front that Ireland has effective coaches and the line out, scrum and maul run by Fogarty and POC is clearly not the problem. Whoever had the final decision bringing in somebody with a minima;l track record like Catt should be shown the door - Larkham and Contepomi are far superior imho.

And then look at Irish coaches doing well in England and France - McCall, ROG, Muldoon, Prendergast, Davidson - and others with recent Irish links like Lam.

There's a top rate coaching team among all of those, but will never happen as Nucifora and the blazers will never accept they made a big mistake elevating Farrell beyond his station, and bringing in somebody as useless as Catt in the one coaching position where we need a real pro. The only good thing they have done is bring in POC to sort out the line out and leave Fogarty to do a pretty decent job with the forwards.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by JB1973 »

Morf wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 2:47 am
JB1973 wrote:
February 16th, 2021, 11:13 am
There is one guy who stands out a mile for me, he has a razor sharp rugby brain , was a top class player and would have the respect of everyone in the camp immediately and that is BOD.

Not sure he would want to get involved but I think he would be an ideal backs coach for any rugby side in the world but most of all for Ireland

If not him Glesson at wasps seems to have them playing a very entertaining brand of rugby and scoring lost of trys and he had Salford playing some great rugby when he was part of the set up there
I'd be sceptical. He's never looked to coach or seemed to have deeply studied the game outside his own play or seemed to work incredibly hard to eek out an extra % in his game compared to others. With such natural talent he didn't need to.

Many of the traits that were presented in support Paul O'Connell as a prospective forwards coach haven't been evident in media work or books etc.
Ive heard some welsh players especially the likes of Roberts and Stephen jones laud BOD for his onfield advice during lions tours, both have pointed out how vocal he was and how well he read the game.

I think he's spot on as a pundit and he offers good insight into the game, his book is very meh but I think he deliberately low key to avoid controversy and risk any impact on his media career

As you say though he doesn't seem to have any great desire to get involved , he is on a good number with less hassle so can't blame him.


What's the view on fc or larkham being brought into the irish national team set up?

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by arsebiscuits1 »

brenno wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 2:02 pm
blaker wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 9:47 am
the spoofer wrote:
February 15th, 2021, 9:40 am
Lets be honest lads and ladies. Does anyone really think that our coaching set up are capable of getting more out of the Irish squad than Joe did?
Not at all. And I think that’s what underpins the frustration people have. At a macro level, running Wales close, away, with 14 men and losing by 2 v a much better France despite loads of injuries isn’t the end of the world.

But deep down you know that we have regressed quite a bit and the above is kind of papering over the cracks. Our coaching ticket is materially worse than why went before and, arguably, worse than 2 of the 4 provinces while individual unit components of Conn and Ulster are better too.
I'd go further than that - the Ireland coaching team is arguably weaker than any of the provinces and definitely weaker in some of the key positions. Look at the lineups.

Ireland - Farrell, Catt, Easterby, Fogarty, O'Connell
Leinster - Cullen, Lancaster, Contepomi, McBryde
Munster - Van Graan, Larkham, Ferreira, Rowntree
Ulster - McFarland, Peel, Grant, Payne
Connahct - Friend, Carolan, Duffy, Wilkins

I'd have any of the provincial head coaches ahead of Farrell, I'd have any of the provincial attack coaches ahead of Catt, I'd have any of the provincial defence coaches ahead of Easterby. It's only up front that Ireland has effective coaches and the line out, scrum and maul run by Fogarty and POC is clearly not the problem. Whoever had the final decision bringing in somebody with a minima;l track record like Catt should be shown the door - Larkham and Contepomi are far superior imho.

And then look at Irish coaches doing well in England and France - McCall, ROG, Muldoon, Prendergast, Davidson - and others with recent Irish links like Lam.

There's a top rate coaching team among all of those, but will never happen as Nucifora and the blazers will never accept they made a big mistake elevating Farrell beyond his station, and bringing in somebody as useless as Catt in the one coaching position where we need a real pro. The only good thing they have done is bring in POC to sort out the line out and leave Fogarty to do a pretty decent job with the forwards.

I'd sooner have Giovanni Trappattoni as head coach over Van Grann. Insanely short sighted to assume he's a better option than Farrell. Unsure what you've seen of Larkham to say he's a better attack coach than Catt too.

Friend is also rapidly approaching the realm of getting found out. Capable of a good win and a performance followed by struggling to beat Dragons in Rodney Parade with a largely first choice team.

And the less said about defence the better. Only Dragons, Zebre and Benetton have conceded more this season thus far
He's gotten awfully fond of that brick

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Oldschool »

outcast eddie wrote:
February 17th, 2021, 12:24 am
f%~king depressing!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
However if you're a glass half full or great minds think alike type of person then perhaps not so depressing.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Dexter »

I think Dan McFarland is the man for the head job.
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backrower8
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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by backrower8 »

Pat Lam or Andy Friend are our way to a brave, successful new future.

We need a once in 145 years re-engineering of the Irish style to a Japanese-French hybrid and away from bish, bosh, ruck.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by Fan with smartphone »

Is there the money to do change? Nucifora seemed to be turning up the heat on the coaching ticket pre-tournament, but money is tight so even if there was the will to change, it may not be viable. Hopefully the current coaching set up and players will get on top of this. We will get some momentum out of the Italy game, to take into the last 2 games, but you do have to start preparing and thinking about worst case scenarios.

Have just heard Franno making the case for O’Gara, so I’m gonna get into this a bit. On O’Gara - Munster might end up being a better path into it for him. The pathway should be through the provinces I do believe. Farrell and Cat are arguably suffering a bit for being lifted into these roles. Having said that O’Gara keeps such an eye on Irish rugby, as his play for Crowley conveniently shows! So it could be a runner.

O’Driscoll...it’s totally pie in the sky and not gonna happen, but i was always disappointed that he didn’t want to get into coaching. On top of everything else he was such an intelligent player. As JB1973 says he was well respected in lions tours for his knowledge and I would add (as I often do) he has mentored Henshaw as a 13. and did a fine job. Henshaw, when in it, still defends that 13 channel like O’Driscoll. Remember the takedown in open country on Nadolo a few years ago? Pointed, communicated and hunted him down. He’d make a great backs coach for someone, but there’s no way he’s going to walk into the international set up, or at least I can’t see it. For what it’s worth, I also always thought Darcy would make a great coach too, but he said he didn’t want to really go down that road either. Kearney might want to you know if/when he comes home from Australia.

McFarland has ambitions i would think and seems enthusiastic and gregarious, which might suit international rugby well. I like Friend’s outlook too. A positive take on the game would improve us at the moment.

Lancaster stepping up would be very weird for him, given history involved, but he keeps his cards very close to his chest. His credentials are very strong for this job and he ticks a lot of boxes.
How France have divvied up duties is interesting in that they seem to be letting the coaches coach and you imagine that’s similar to what he would want.

Lam is in the midst of a very lucrative project, I’m not sure that could happen, though again I approve of his “it’s a big pitch, they can’t defend it all” attitude.

Van Grann is too similar to what we are seeing at the moment, but Larkham has shown innovation with the Brumbies in the past. You imagine he’d be a useful guide for these young 10s we are going to have to develop. Australia was up and down though and he has a bit more to prove at Munster.

One outside person I would recommend pursuing, possibly moreso for the next time a provincial position opens up, is brad Thorn. He has been doing to my mind a superb job with the Queensland reds which involves developing young players and has had his hand weakened with any experienced players they had going overseas - Samu Kerevi, Liam Gill among others. He knows Irish rugby, tries to play a positive brand of rugby, and commands respect. The results have been mixed and he has got it in the neck a fair bit, but when he took that job on it was a total nightmare. Now, Queensland prior to Covid were positioned to become the driving force of an Aussie renaissance in my opinion with some superb young players. He’s been a steady hand at the tiller, whilst playing a great brand of rugby and developing good, young forwards and backs. A lot to like there.

We could be doing with growing our own too. It’s good to have voices from around the world to learn from, but most coaches in New Zealand are home-grown. It is a governance failure that we have so few.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by leinsterforever »

NZ have an excellent structure in place for coach development with their three-tier provincial competition set up. Coaches who do well at that level then become options for jobs higher up. It's funny, in Ireland the majority of players come from schools but there aren't a whole lot of coaches going from schools jobs into bigger coaching positions. That was Kidney's path, but what's the route nowadays for someone like Johne Murphy who's doing well as a schools coach? - assuming they'd be interested in a provincial or national role (maybe they'd prefer to have job security). Would they even be considered?

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by wixfjord »

What exactly has Andy Friend done to indicate he's remotely close to an international head coach besides being a nice lad?

You'd have the exact same issue as Faz.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by riocard911 »

wixfjord wrote:
February 18th, 2021, 8:46 am
What exactly has Andy Friend done to indicate he's remotely close to an international head coach besides being a nice lad?

You'd have the exact same issue as Faz.
I agree. I think anyone, who gets the top job to coach a top Test side has to have proven at club level, that they can win stuff, and have silverwear to show for it - à la Gatland (the Wales version), Kidney and Schmidt. Therefore my current preferences for a possible Faz successor would be McCall, Robertson or Lam.

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Re: 6 Nations 2021

Post by JB1973 »

Lam is the stand out coach in Europe right now for me, won the pro 14 with Connacht and looks like he will win the premiership with Bristol

His teams play great rugby, the players seem to love him and he carries himself well, just seems a proper leader.

I'm hoping wales ditch pivac and appoint him in the summer

Robertson cv with Canterbury is excellent, he seems a bit miffed he missed out on the NZ job and I reckon he'd jump at the chance to coach a major test nation (unless he thinks the ab's are going to ditch foster shortly)

Someone no body seems to mention is Baxter at Exeter done a great job wins trophy's and seems able to get the best out of players of all ranges of ability, not sure he'd leave but he must be one of the best coaches out there

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