Leinster Squad 20-21

[Peg Leg]

Very odd decision if true.
Especially given the IRFU’s current financial position and JS’ injury profile.

From a Leinster point of view this will likely mean that JS will be picked for all of the big games, which means that the Byrne brothers will have to bide their time to claim the 10 jersey.

Ross Byrne has been picked for plenty of big games in recent seasons and generally won them, but i'm sure you remember that.

And if Leinster are going to win the league this year it will be because of Harry.

Ok, my bad I should have been clearer.

When fit, you would have to suspect that as a centrally contracted player, and as a player who looks to be identified as the 10 to lead us to the RWC, that when fit JS will start, but I’m sure you already understood that.

If he gets two years, he will almost be exclusively an Irish team player

[munster#1]

Ross Byrne has been picked for plenty of big games in recent seasons and generally won them, but i'm sure you remember that.

And if Leinster are going to win the league this year it will be because of Harry.

Ok, my bad I should have been clearer.

When fit, you would have to suspect that as a centrally contracted player, and as a player who looks to be identified as the 10 to lead us to the RWC, that when fit JS will start, but I’m sure you already understood that.

If he gets two years, he will almost be exclusively an Irish team player

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
For Sexton to continue as first choice for Ireland he will need to be playing some high intensity games for Leinster.

That’s why I believe that he will start all HC games when fit.
This whole situation adds additional stress to Leo as the paymasters will be dictating what he can and can’t do at ten, even more so than before.

On the flip side of this, it will be interesting to see who loses a contract at the expense of Sexton.

[wixfjord]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

[mildlyinterested]

Ok, my bad I should have been clearer.

When fit, you would have to suspect that as a centrally contracted player, and as a player who looks to be identified as the 10 to lead us to the RWC, that when fit JS will start, but I’m sure you already understood that.

If he gets two years, he will almost be exclusively an Irish team player

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
For Sexton to continue as first choice for Ireland he will need to be playing some high intensity games for Leinster.

That’s why I believe that he will start all HC games when fit.
This whole situation adds additional stress to Leo as the paymasters will be dictating what he can and can’t do at ten, even more so than before.

On the flip side of this, it will be interesting to see who loses a contract at the expense of Sexton.

[munster#1]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

I hope that H Byrne lives up to the hype, if so then it may be problem solved.
However, he needs to overtake his brother first.

Playing league games is a good breeding ground, but for Harry to really be given a chance at staking a claim in the Irish 10 shirt, he needs to be starting against the best teams, he needs to learn how to play behind a beaten pack, how to win those tight games.

I don’t think any 10s have staked a claim on a central contract, but given the limited funds available, the money to cover Sexton’s contract will have a knock on effect on what is left in the pot to offer a central contract to another player, or to retain others on the ones that they already have.

For me offering Sexton a lucrative central contract is not the wisest place to be spending given his age, form and injury profile.

Do you believe that this is a good piece of business?

[hugonaut]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

This is against received wisdom of players having to play at certain levels at certain stages, but maybe Harry Byrne isn't a long way away from test level?

I don't think he is. He's exceptionally talented, has a very impressive age-grade background behind him and if he's not a rock-solid tackler, he's not a shrimp either [188cm/92kg]. His form for Leinster this season has been outstanding.

Andy Farrell selects the team. He could take the view that he thinks Harry Byrne is a better bet – in the immediate future, the mid-term and the long term – than any of the other outhalves available to him. He doesn't have to agree with the depth chart that provincial coaches have, or the way they select their teams. He has access to all the Irish-qualified players in Ireland and it's his prerogative to select who he wants to select. He could pick Aaron Sexton or Jack Crowley if he wanted.

My opinion is that the lad is an international waiting to happen, and Farrell is prolonging the wait through staid [or timid] selection. We are looking for talent in the position he plays, due to the incumbent's age and waning form and [as pertinently] the collapse of the replacement chain that Joe Schmidt tried to put in place [Jackson/Carbery/Madigan].

If people want to reference Matthew Tait's debut as an example of what can go wrong when you put a talented but very young inexperienced player in above his head, then that is legitimate. It happened. There's a risk. So take a risk. It could go the other way and turn out like a player who played for England when he was even younger than Tait, Jonny Wilkinson.

[wixfjord]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

I hope that H Byrne lives up to the hype, if so then it may be problem solved.
However, he needs to overtake his brother first.

Playing league games is a good breeding ground, but for Harry to really be given a chance at staking a claim in the Irish 10 shirt, he needs to be starting against the best teams, he needs to learn how to play behind a beaten pack, how to win those tight games.

I don’t think any 10s have staked a claim on a central contract, but given the limited funds available, the money to cover Sexton’s contract will have a knock on effect on what is left in the pot to offer a central contract to another player, or to retain others on the ones that they already have.

For me offering Sexton a lucrative central contract is not the wisest place to be spending given his age, form and injury profile.

Do you believe that this is a good piece of business?

I would personally have given him a 1 year deal. It's a risk to give him 2 years, given how quickly the decline can come for an older player, as we saw with ROG.

But I can also understand that he is our captain and starting 10 as it stands.

Your original post talked about how this meant JS would be picked for all big Euro games for Leinster.

My point is, a new contract isn't the reason this, the fact he's our best 10 is.

If that changes, then we've seen more than enough examples of Leo & Stu selecting a younger guy to indicate they'll get the shot if they're good enough.

But the biggest issue here is that the tier of 10s behind Sexton (Madigan, Jackson, Carty, R. Byrne, Burns) just aren't going to be high test level options and even with an ageing JS there aren't properly challenging him.

[wixfjord]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

This is against received wisdom of players having to play at certain levels at certain stages, but maybe Harry Byrne isn't a long way away from test level?

I don't think he is. He's exceptionally talented, has a very impressive age-grade background behind him and if he's not a rock-solid tackler, he's not a shrimp either [188cm/92kg]. His form for Leinster this season has been outstanding.

Andy Farrell selects the team. He could take the view that he thinks Harry Byrne is a better bet – in the immediate future, the mid-term and the long term – than any of the other outhalves available to him. He doesn't have to agree with the depth chart that provincial coaches have, or the way they select their teams. He has access to all the Irish-qualified players in Ireland and it's his prerogative to select who he wants to select. He could pick Aaron Sexton or Jack Crowley if he wanted.

My opinion is that the lad is an international waiting to happen, and Farrell is prolonging the wait through staid [or timid] selection. We are looking for talent in the position he plays, due to the incumbent's age and waning form and [as pertinently] the collapse of the replacement chain that Joe Schmidt tried to put in place [Jackson/Carbery/Madigan].

If people want to reference Matthew Tait's debut as an example of what can go wrong when you put a talented but very young inexperienced player in above his head, then that is legitimate. It happened. There's a risk. So take a risk. It could go the other way and turn out like a player who played for England when he was even younger than Tait, Jonny Wilkinson.

His form has been great in league games that we've mostly been humping teams in. He's clearly an incredible talent.

But to me he has shown on a few more pressurised occasions that he doesn't yet have the control and maturity that may be needed at Euro and will be needed at test level imo (Glasgow and Ospreys away were slightly ropier performances in terms of his game management imo).

I would find it hard to reason that a guy who hasn't started in Europe or against a proper big side in the Pro14 should be in a test 23 personally, particularly at 10. (Obvious freaks like JR excepted!)

Clearly he's a test player in waiting, but would I want him benching for Ireland at the weekend? Not sure.

[munster#1]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

I hope that H Byrne lives up to the hype, if so then it may be problem solved.
However, he needs to overtake his brother first.

Playing league games is a good breeding ground, but for Harry to really be given a chance at staking a claim in the Irish 10 shirt, he needs to be starting against the best teams, he needs to learn how to play behind a beaten pack, how to win those tight games.

I don’t think any 10s have staked a claim on a central contract, but given the limited funds available, the money to cover Sexton’s contract will have a knock on effect on what is left in the pot to offer a central contract to another player, or to retain others on the ones that they already have.

For me offering Sexton a lucrative central contract is not the wisest place to be spending given his age, form and injury profile.

Do you believe that this is a good piece of business?

I would personally have given him a 1 year deal. It's a risk to give him 2 years, given how quickly the decline can come for an older player, as we saw with ROG.

But I can also understand that he is our captain and starting 10 as it stands.

Your original post talked about how this meant JS would be picked for all big Euro games for Leinster.

My point is, a new contract isn't the reason this, the fact he's our best 10 is.

If that changes, then we've seen more than enough examples of Leo & Stu selecting a younger guy to indicate they'll get the shot if they're good enough.

But the biggest issue here is that the tier of 10s behind Sexton (Madigan, Jackson, Carty, R. Byrne, Burns) just aren't going to be high test level options and even with an ageing JS there aren't properly challenging him.

I agree, a one year contract with an option of a second would have been about right, or even have him move to a provincial contract for what ever duration Leinster see fit.

The problem that I envisage is that Farrell will be building his squad around sexton, and is going to want sexton play as many big games as possible to keep him sharp.

As the paymaster the IRFU can simply tell Leo who’s playing in the big games.
If that doesn’t happen and we get to see both or either of the Byrne brothers given every chance to overtake Sexton at Leinster then there is no real issue.

I agree that the players behind are not pushing him, but that doesn’t eliminate the issue that right now Sexton doesn’t appear to be at the level required for Ireland to beat the best, and I doubt that in 2 years time he will suddenly regain form.

[wixfjord]

I agree, a one year contract with an option of a second would have been about right, or even have him move to a provincial contract for what ever duration Leinster see fit.

The problem that I envisage is that Farrell will be building his squad around sexton, and is going to want sexton play as many big games as possible to keep him sharp.

As the paymaster the IRFU can simply tell Leo who’s playing in the big games.
If that doesn’t happen and we get to see both or either of the Byrne brothers given every chance to overtake Sexton at Leinster then there is no real issue.

I agree that the players behind are not pushing him, but that doesn’t eliminate the issue that right now Sexton doesn’t appear to be at the level required for Ireland to beat the best, and I doubt that in 2 years time he will suddenly regain form.

But Farrell won't be building his squad around Sexton because he has signed a new two year contract. He'll be doing it because he's our captain and best 10.


The contract part isn't relevant to that. Likewise, whether Sexton is on top form at the moment is another moot point. He is clearly currently our best option.

A two year contract doesn't stop Farrell picking someone else.

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

Keenan, Baird, Connors, Doris, Larmour would all be examples of that.

H.Byrne will get the same treatment.

[Ruckedtobits]

Apparently for whatever reasons, Carty and Cooney have received the blackball from Farrell. However, Burns has provided two excellent cameos for Ireland and will do an excellent job if needed. He isn't the ruthless driver than is J10, he doesn't knock down the door, he picks the lock.

Burns can do a job for Ireland but isn't a 90% test match kicker. So give that role to Murray and let's see how we go.

[Ruckedtobits]

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

They do if he has a Central Contract - that's the deal.

[wixfjord]

Apparently for whatever reasons, Carty and Cooney have received the blackball from Farrell. However, Burns has provided two excellent cameos for Ireland and will do an excellent job if needed. He isn't the ruthless driver than is J10, he doesn't knock down the door, he picks the lock.

Burns can do a job for Ireland but isn't a 90% test match kicker. So give that role to Murray and let's see how we go.

Burns is a nice player who can do a job, but isn't the first cousin of a level test 10 imo (Farrell, Russell, Biggar, Ntamack).

Carbery is but clearly can't be relied on to stay fit.

PJ could've been...

Carty/Madigan are too inconsistent at this stage.

Ross B probably doesn't have the attacking game/athleticism to do it.

H.Byrne and Healy can get there and should be prioritised imo.

[wixfjord]

IRFU don't tell Leo who to play in Euro games btw, and every Leinster player is given a fair chance to overtake senior players and get significant game time to push their case.

They do if he has a Central Contract - that's the deal.

Not for Euro games afaik.

[Peg Leg]

Apparently for whatever reasons, Carty and Cooney have received the blackball from Farrell. However, Burns has provided two excellent cameos for Ireland and will do an excellent job if needed. He isn't the ruthless driver than is J10, he doesn't knock down the door, he picks the lock.

Burns can do a job for Ireland but isn't a 90% test match kicker. So give that role to Murray and let's see how we go.

Burns is a nice player who can do a job, but isn't the first cousin of a level test 10 imo (Farrell, Russell, Biggar, Ntamack).

Carbery is but clearly can't be relied on to stay fit.

PJ could've been...

Carty/Madigan are too inconsistent at this stage.

Ross B probably doesn't have the attacking game/athleticism to do it.

H.Byrne and Healy can get there and should be prioritised imo.

Fit or otherwise Carbery is no J10 and as with his time at Leinster, I preferred to see RB in the 10 jersey for the big games.

[Oldschool]

Johnny Sexton closing in on Leinster and Ireland deal until 2023

"Hopefully I'll have something sorted in the next few weeks."

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/johnny-s ... ons-223921

No. No. No. Surely not. 1 year only and review at the end of 2021/2 season, based on his questionable physical durability and advancing time.

A year at Leinster should be the offer.
A central contract of any kind would be an absolute disaster.

[Oldschool]

Very odd decision if true.
Especially given the IRFU’s current financial position and JS’ injury profile.

From a Leinster point of view this will likely mean that JS will be picked for all of the big games, which means that the Byrne brothers will have to bide their time to claim the 10 jersey.

Ross Byrne has been picked for plenty of big games in recent seasons and generally won them, but i'm sure you remember that.

And if Leinster are going to win the league this year it will be because of Harry.

I suspect that Byrne junior and Hawkshaw will be our best two OHs come the start of next season with Ross very good back up.

[Oldschool]

Strange and disappointing attitude from some on here.

He’s a legend and it’s not like there’s even a selection controversy right now. If the IRFU think he’s worth a punt only 2 years out from a World Cup and he’s up for it then it’s all good.

Ross Byrne is Ross Byrne. He’s better off without the scrutiny. He’ll be as ready with Sexton there as without. Harry Byrne is better off without the pressure and attention. Carbery would be one for the rivalry but he’s a bigger risk than Sexton. Carty and Burns will be learning off Sexton in Ireland camp.

If Sexton is still the guy in 2 years then great. If he’s not someone else will be. It won’t be like Kidney and ROG circling the drain together.

A legend is just that - past tense.
There's nothing shameful in facing facts.
The valuable game time that the pretenders need will be dribbled away and 2019 could be repeated all over again.
We end up going to a RWC with two injured OH and the next player off the rank with virtually no international experience.

[Oldschool]

Ross Byrne has been picked for plenty of big games in recent seasons and generally won them, but i'm sure you remember that.

And if Leinster are going to win the league this year it will be because of Harry.

Ok, my bad I should have been clearer.

When fit, you would have to suspect that as a centrally contracted player, and as a player who looks to be identified as the 10 to lead us to the RWC, that when fit JS will start, but I’m sure you already understood that.

If he gets two years, he will almost be exclusively an Irish team player

Well that wouldn't be too bad.

[Oldschool]

Sexton will start HEC games for Leinster and start only 10% of league games anyway, irrespective of his Irish contract status. That isn't going to change.

The issue here isn't Johnny. It's what's coming behind him to take the jersey. H. Byrne looks to be the main contender, but is still a long way away from test level. He needs league games to build his case, which he is getting plenty of.

As for who 'loses out' on a central contract, which current Irish 10 deserves a central contract?

Sexton isn't at test level anymore so Harry is already a lot closer to replacing him than you are suggesting.
That's a combination of Sexton's decline and Harry's improvement.