carlow man wrote: ↑January 28th, 2021, 2:28 pm
Kleyn is bang average. Anytime he come up against a big powerful pack hes been put in his box. He's miles off international standard. His attributes are hitting rucks and clearouts. All locks are capable of doing that. Doesn't mean it makes you top quality because of your body shape. Plus he's not the smartest lad on the pitch.
You could say something similar about Quinn Roux to be fair.
I'm not extolling the virtues of Kleyn here btw, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of average residency players who have been capped across the years.
The only reason Kleyn is such a lightning rod for criticism is because he took Dev's place.
Not true and I'm not sure why you are always such a contrarian. Kleyn wouldn't be in the top 4 locks in Leinster (Ryan, Fardy, Dev (although I worry about Dev's decline) and Molony. I haven't seen enough of Baird or Dunne to class them. He does nothing to a really high standard. Perhaps he is a strong scrummager but so is Roux and QR is a better carrier and more effective in defence. Yes, there have been average players capped but in nearly all cases it was in relatively meaningless games (Robbie Diack) or in an emergency (Ah You). Nathan White was a decent prop who could scrummage on the TH in a time when we were struggling for TH.
I mean it's a discussion forum right? If you put such a hardline opinion out there you should be prepared to have it challenged.
You said capping Kleyn was the issue, you didn't mention the RWC.
My point was Kleyn is certainly better than some of the other dross we've capped over the years, and to me Kleyn, like Strauss or White, is a guy who can do a job at Euro level and perhaps isn't good enough to be a test starter.
So again, I think the main reason you've such an issue with Kleyn isn't him being capped but him taking Dev's place?
Kleyn was capped in a (late) warm up game but went straight into the RWC squad.
The 2 things get conflated. No one would talk about Kleyn getting capped if he hadn’t gone to the RWC. He did though, it looked like a bad decision at the time and it still looks that way.
There was almost no upside for Joe. Kleyn wasn’t an option to start in the big games, Toner could have been. Every opposition coach was glad to not have to prepare for Toner being picked. There was squad disharmony coming from provincial fallout and parachuting in a newly qualified residency player in place of an ever present, especially with no obvious form or versatility benefits, was always going to be badly received inside and outside the squad. Why put your neck out for a very mediocre player, who needs to learn the system.
EOS put his neck out for Brian Carney but that was an experienced league legend trying to make a switch. Kleyn was a known quantity.
Schmidt was always big on having a strong-scrummaging lock behind the tighthead. Maybe he got too hung up on it and when Roux went down with a virus looked for the nearest like-for-like replacement when Toner could actually have done the job as well and been better in other aspects of play. Toner scrummed behind the tighthead for Ireland a good bit around 2016.
But who knows. Maybe Kleyn's bulk would have been an asset in a quarter final against South Africa.
Kleyn has played good rugby this season for Munster. Obviously a very physically strong and large guy and he has made a big improvement in terms of his handling, which is getting towards being adequate. It used to be so bad that I would genuinely feel a twinge of pity for him when the ball came towards him; you could sense the panic.
Now, he was absolutely f*cking cr*p at the World Cup. Appalling. Our [all-Munster front five] scrum got pushed around by a Russian pack of semi-pros who we outweighed by an average of 9kg/man and he was just terrible. From all the press reaction, it must have seemed like very few people in Ireland wanted him in the World Cup squad, or even playing for Ireland, which must be sh*t for your confidence. And that certainly showed, because he corpsed.
hugonaut wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 6:44 am
Kleyn has played good rugby this season for Munster. Obviously a very physically strong and large guy and he has made a big improvement in terms of his handling, which is getting towards being adequate. It used to be so bad that I would genuinely feel a twinge of pity for him when the ball came towards him; you could sense the panic.
Now, he was absolutely f*cking cr*p at the World Cup. Appalling. Our [all-Munster front five] scrum got pushed around by a Russian pack of semi-pros who we outweighed by an average of 9kg/man and he was just terrible. From all the press reaction, it must have seemed like very few people in Ireland wanted him in the World Cup squad, or even playing for Ireland, which must be sh*t for your confidence. And that certainly showed, because he corpsed.
With that said ... he didn't pick himself.
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
hugonaut wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 6:44 am
Kleyn has played good rugby this season for Munster. Obviously a very physically strong and large guy and he has made a big improvement in terms of his handling, which is getting towards being adequate. It used to be so bad that I would genuinely feel a twinge of pity for him when the ball came towards him; you could sense the panic.
Now, he was absolutely f*cking cr*p at the World Cup. Appalling. Our [all-Munster front five] scrum got pushed around by a Russian pack of semi-pros who we outweighed by an average of 9kg/man and he was just terrible. From all the press reaction, it must have seemed like very few people in Ireland wanted him in the World Cup squad, or even playing for Ireland, which must be sh*t for your confidence. And that certainly showed, because he corpsed.
With that said ... he didn't pick himself.
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
At the time Kleyn was picked he was playing better than Moloney who wasn’t playing in any games of substance. People need to get a grip
hugonaut wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 6:44 am
Kleyn has played good rugby this season for Munster. Obviously a very physically strong and large guy and he has made a big improvement in terms of his handling, which is getting towards being adequate. It used to be so bad that I would genuinely feel a twinge of pity for him when the ball came towards him; you could sense the panic.
Now, he was absolutely f*cking cr*p at the World Cup. Appalling. Our [all-Munster front five] scrum got pushed around by a Russian pack of semi-pros who we outweighed by an average of 9kg/man and he was just terrible. From all the press reaction, it must have seemed like very few people in Ireland wanted him in the World Cup squad, or even playing for Ireland, which must be sh*t for your confidence. And that certainly showed, because he corpsed.
With that said ... he didn't pick himself.
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
At the time Kleyn was picked he was playing better than Moloney who wasn’t playing in any games of substance. People need to get a grip
You are adding 2 + 2 and getting 5. I said earlier that Kleyn shouldn't have been capped by Ireland because in my view he isn't international standard and hadn't shown any form worthy of getting capped.
I then put forward my view that he would be hard pushed to rank in the top 4 second rows at Leinster. I'd prefer Molony to Kleyn on current form and for what he offers to the team. I haven't seen anyone suggest that Molony should have been brought to the World Cup.
the spoofer wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 11:02 am
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
They're complementary players, I think I'd see too many differences between them to say that one is better than the other. They would be a good partnership.
Kleyn's strengths lean to the physical, Molony's to the technical. Kleyn is a tighthead scrummager, Molony is a lineout caller. Kleyn is abrasive, Molony is more stoic. Kleyn is a willing trooper, Molony is a leader ... you get the picture.
the spoofer wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 11:02 am
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
They're complementary players, I think I'd see too many differences between them to say that one is better than the other. They would be a good partnership.
Kleyn's strengths lean to the physical, Molony's to the technical. Kleyn is a tighthead scrummager, Molony is a lineout caller. Kleyn is abrasive, Molony is more stoic. Kleyn is a willing trooper, Molony is a leader ... you get the picture.
I hate to disagree with you but Molony has developed many of the qualities that you hold as Kleyns. Molony has, this season to my biased eye, become a lot more abrasive and physical. I regard him as one of the best latch merchants in the business.
the spoofer wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 11:02 am
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
They're complementary players, I think I'd see too many differences between them to say that one is better than the other. They would be a good partnership.
Kleyn's strengths lean to the physical, Molony's to the technical. Kleyn is a tighthead scrummager, Molony is a lineout caller. Kleyn is abrasive, Molony is more stoic. Kleyn is a willing trooper, Molony is a leader ... you get the picture.
I hate to disagree with you but Molony has developed many of the qualities that you hold as Kleyns. Molony has, this season to my biased eye, become a lot more abrasive and physical. I regard him as one of the best latch merchants in the business.
Agree with this. I never rated Moloney more than being a very good option in the league, who you wouldn't mind seeing in the team on euro weekends, but the guy has really stepped up a level this season. His physicality this season has really shocked me.
the spoofer wrote: ↑January 29th, 2021, 11:02 am
Hence the reason I said that it's a black mark against Joe for the decision. Would you rate Kleyn over Molony?
They're complementary players, I think I'd see too many differences between them to say that one is better than the other. They would be a good partnership.
Kleyn's strengths lean to the physical, Molony's to the technical. Kleyn is a tighthead scrummager, Molony is a lineout caller. Kleyn is abrasive, Molony is more stoic. Kleyn is a willing trooper, Molony is a leader ... you get the picture.
Kleyn is mediocre at best, Molony is sometimes better than mediocre?
Schmidt always had a weakness for a big, limited, lump of a tighthead lock. Remember all the games away that Browne got selected for? Doubt many coaches would have had him in that Leinster squad. He went to the ERC because Roux was injured.
Don't see how he and Molony can be in the same discussion. Such different players. Complementary rather than in competition.
