Munster Away 26/12 19:35 Eir Sport 1

[mildlyinterested]

certainly amusing to hear that munster have "closed the gap" with Leinster.

where have we heard that before?

[LeinsterLeader]

certainly amusing to hear that munster have "closed the gap" with Leinster.

where have we heard that before?

They can "close" all the gaps thy want.

As long as there is a gap, I'm happy

[wixfjord]

I think it's a fair comment to say we've probably gone backwards slightly and Munster have progressed.

I think we're still clearly the best side on the island, but in a one off game that gap can be bridged.

[LeinsterLeader]

I think it's a fair comment to say we've probably gone backwards slightly and Munster have progressed.

I think we're still clearly the best side on the island, but in a one off game that gap can be bridged.

I think that's fair comment to be honest! I'd like to disagree with it but I don't think I'd have strong enough evidence to argue against it!

[neiliog93]

They have closed the gap. The pilfering of the Leinster squad and decline of Sexton have weakened Leinster's squad, while world class, expensive imported players from South Africa and (and a fair few players from Leinster) have strengthened Munster's.

[munster#1]

They have closed the gap. The pilfering of the Leinster squad and decline of Sexton have weakened Leinster's squad, while world class, expensive imported players from South Africa and (and a fair few players from Leinster) have strengthened Munster's.

Ah sure, only one of those expensive signings from South Africa and 1 player signed from Leinster have been getting decent gametime so far this season.
The resurgence has been fuelled by a fair few local lads stepping up to the plate.

[Serb]

The gap has definitely been narrowed. Munster have greatly improved, we, for the most part, have stayed the same. The same strengths and the same weaknesses as the last season.

It’s been a fascinating watch. So much investment has gone into the Munster project over the last few years with Carbery being moved there, securing two World Cup winning players who are likely the top two earners in the country now, and a whole host of World Cup winning and B&I Lions top tier coaching appointments, likely giving them the most expensive coaching ticket by a stretch. They’ve been given everything they wanted and then some.

Looking at it now however, the results of that investment have been very disappointing. Carbery and Snyman have barely featured (obviously through no fault of their own). For a marquee player on top tier cash, de Allende has not looked value for money, outshone by centres on half the cash. There’s been no sustained improvement in the back line from Larkham. van Graan has struggled to focus on anything but the immediate result, never deliberately built for the future.

Despite all this, from what looks like serendipity, the improvement has actually been delivered by the much maligned academy. Some truly excellent young players have emerged in Casey, Healy, Daly, Hodnett, both Wycherlys. Casey is a true leader and looks like he’ll surpass Murray sooner rather than later. Healy has kicked crucial points and has looked pretty comfortable overall. They finally have the squad depth that’s allowed them to win the games they used to lose when the internationals were away.

They have a collection of really excellent players somewhat succeeding despite very questionable coaching. Snyman is a genuine superstar and will elevate them next season. If they replaced van Graan with a good coach, I’d genuinely fear them.

[ronk]

Snyman was dropped from a line out. Highly reckless and it only took a few attempts to put him out long term.

Carbery did a run of games when he did a full preseason before he arrived. After that he got rushed back in time for marquee matches and was promptly injured.

There’s an element of luck in the sense that Munster signed Nick McCarthy ahead of Casey but at least they figured and and changed tack, so that’s an improvement.

[leinsterforever]

It's taking a bit of time to bed in this new playing style with more emphasis on a kicking game. I think it's too early to tell whether or not Leinster have disimproved.

The need for Covid bubbles could have more of an effect on training here than at other teams. Lancaster likes to have three teams swapping in and out of his sessions. Has that been curtailed somewhat because of a need for smaller groups?

[mildlyinterested]

It's taking a bit of time to bed in this new playing style with more emphasis on a kicking game. I think it's too early to tell whether or not Leinster have disimproved.

The need for Covid bubbles could have more of an effect on training here than at other teams. Lancaster likes to have three teams swapping in and out of his sessions. Has that been curtailed somewhat because of a need for smaller groups?

No, training hasn't been limited by smaller groups. They are all in a big bubble.

[Ruckedtobits]

This is a very subjective topic but Leiinster have certainly added / developed a number of players in their Squad during the Season so far:

• • Hugo Keenan and Jimmy O'Brien at full-back are both vastly improved;
  • Cian Kelleher's improvement and Dave Kearney's return to form are both notably additions
    • Tommy O'Brien's form in the centre has been a valuable addition;
    • Harry Byrne and Ciaran Frawley have both grown in experience since last season
    • Peter Dooley & Michael Bent are now genuine European level Squad players
    • Kelleher & Sheehan have both improved rapidly as top-quality hookers
    • Ryan Baird has become a top quality 5/6 and Molony & Dunne have improved in experience and performance
    • Doris, Penny, Connors, Ruddock & Leavy are all playing better than last season
    .
    Conversely we have lost players to retirement (Kearney, McFadden) and players to long-term injury Adam Byrne, Furlong, Deegan, Conor O'Brien among the most notable.
    
    IMO, Leinster has improved their Squad substantially since last Season but we still have uncertainty / lack of depth at wing, scrum-half, tight-head and loose-head
    
    I acknowledge that Munster have also improved by both addition of new players and experience for their younger players but I am not prepared to enter the comparative field until we have seen them field their strongest Squads in hand to hand competition.

[wixfjord]

For a marquee player on top tier cash, de Allende has not looked value for money, outshone by centres on half the cash.

Wouldn't agree with that at all. I think he has been really good.

[wixfjord]

This is a very subjective topic but Leiinster have certainly added / developed a number of players in their Squad during the Season so far:

• • Hugo Keenan and Jimmy O'Brien at full-back are both vastly improved;
  • Cian Kelleher's improvement and Dave Kearney's return to form are both notably additions
    • Tommy O'Brien's form in the centre has been a valuable addition;
    • Harry Byrne and Ciaran Frawley have both grown in experience since last season
    • Peter Dooley & Michael Bent are now genuine European level Squad players
    • Kelleher & Sheehan have both improved rapidly as top-quality hookers
    • Ryan Baird has become a top quality 5/6 and Molony & Dunne have improved in experience and performance
    • Doris, Penny, Connors, Ruddock & Leavy are all playing better than last season
    .
    Conversely we have lost players to retirement (Kearney, McFadden) and players to long-term injury Adam Byrne, Furlong, Deegan, Conor O'Brien among the most notable.
    
    IMO, Leinster has improved their Squad substantially since last Season but we still have uncertainty / lack of depth at wing, scrum-half, tight-head and loose-head
    
    I acknowledge that Munster have also improved by both addition of new players and experience for their younger players but I am not prepared to enter the comparative field until we have seen them field their strongest Squads in hand to hand competition.

Jaysus there's a lot of stretching there RTB. Don't know how you can say our squad has improved 'substantially' when we've lost depth through leavers and injuries and were down to academy players in the backs for a few games.

A lot of the guys you mention there were arguably in better form last year.

DK has been in excellent form for a few seasons now. Nothing new about that.

Keenan/Bent/CK/Doris/Connors/Kelleher/JOB have played better than last season? I'd argue the opposite for a good few of those. Many were starting in Europe and in similar form over a year ago.

Kelleher in particular has arguably gone backwards.

Not sure how we can say Baird/Molony/Dunne have improved greatly since start of the season either.

Some young guys have come through, and H Byrne/TOB/Sheehan in particular look like they can move up a level.

But we've also seen the decline of our captain and starting 10, the rapid decline of our marquee second row NIQ, along with the loss of three test backs in Tomane, MCF and RK.

Like can we not just acknowledge that our form has been patchier and Munster have improved both in terms of results and squad depth

[munster#1]

The gap has definitely been narrowed. Munster have greatly improved, we, for the most part, have stayed the same. The same strengths and the same weaknesses as the last season.

It’s been a fascinating watch. So much investment has gone into the Munster project over the last few years with Carbery being moved there, securing two World Cup winning players who are likely the top two earners in the country now, and a whole host of World Cup winning and B&I Lions top tier coaching appointments, likely giving them the most expensive coaching ticket by a stretch. They’ve been given everything they wanted and then some.

Looking at it now however, the results of that investment have been very disappointing. Carbery and Snyman have barely featured (obviously through no fault of their own). For a marquee player on top tier cash, de Allende has not looked value for money, outshone by centres on half the cash. There’s been no sustained improvement in the back line from Larkham. van Graan has struggled to focus on anything but the immediate result, never deliberately built for the future.

Despite all this, from what looks like serendipity, the improvement has actually been delivered by the much maligned academy. Some truly excellent young players have emerged in Casey, Healy, Daly, Hodnett, both Wycherlys. Casey is a true leader and looks like he’ll surpass Murray sooner rather than later. Healy has kicked crucial points and has looked pretty comfortable overall. They finally have the squad depth that’s allowed them to win the games they used to lose when the internationals were away.

They have a collection of really excellent players somewhat succeeding despite very questionable coaching. Snyman is a genuine superstar and will elevate them next season. If they replaced van Graan with a good coach, I’d genuinely fear them.

You have covered a lot in that post, but it is good to see that you acknowledge Munster’s improvement and that Munster have a collection of really excellent players.

On the investment comments, it is worth noting that at the time of signing South Africa we not World Cup winners, which would have an impact on players salary’s.

The figures that I have heard is around the €350k-€400k mark, which I’d say are not too far off Leinster’s signing of Henshaw and Fardy.

I am not sure on what any of the coaches are on, Van Grann is unlikely to be a top paid coach?
Rowntree joined from Georgia, so I doubt he was on big money either?
Granted Larkham is probably well paid, but again I doubt it is massive money, probably similar to Lancaster if not less given that Lancaster is English and is a former international head coach.

On your comments on DeAllande, I would suggest that you are probably a highlights reel spectator? Go back and watch some of the Munster games and just watch what DeAllande brings to the table. IMO he has been brilliant.

On the serendipity thing and Van Grann never deliberately building for the future, every signing that he has made has been about building for the future.
This is a comment that has been thrown around on here far too often. Just look at the clear out that Van Grann has performed since his arrival which includes a large number of players from the academy.
Munster will never compete with Leinster when it comes to academy given the population and the sheer number of ready made rugby players coming through professional rugby set ups at school level.
But they are doing a very good job at the moment.

Munster decided to concentrate on a smaller number of higher quality prospects in their academy about 2 years ago, and the fruits of that labour are clear to see this season with some quality graduates coming through as well as some current academy players stepping up to the mark.

Munster are yet to hit their stride on a regular basis, but there has been a marked improvement in how Munster have played. At times the interplay between the forwards and the backs has been unreal, and some of the tries have been top class IMO.
To say that they have succeeded despite questionable coaching is nuts. You don’t go to Clermont and win with a poorly coached team.


Munster are still behind Leinster IMO, and may remain that way for a number of years, but that does not detract from what Munster are developing at the moment.
Munster have the ability to nick a few wins against Leinster, and hopefully they do that when it really matters.

[riocard911]

Having gotten off to a patchy start i.e. at the end of the 2019/2020 season, I think Allende has been very good for Munster - not just in terms of playing ability, but also in terms of leadership and commitment. Along with Healy, Casey, Daley and Larkham's coaching starting to bear fruit I think he has contributed massively to the improvement in Munster's backline play. The Clermont match has given the Munster players and coaches a lot of self-belief. I'd be delighted but quite surprised, if we manage to win in Thomond next week. I'd like to see Munster come up against Clermont in the KO stages of the Heino to see how the current "self-belief" of our Southern Brethren holds up.......

[arsebiscuits1]

Jaysus there's a lot of stretching there RTB. Don't know how you can say our squad has improved 'substantially' when we've lost depth through leavers and injuries and were down to academy players in the backs for a few games.

A lot of the guys you mention there were arguably in better form last year.

DK has been in excellent form for a few seasons now. Nothing new about that.

Keenan/Bent/CK/Doris/Connors/Kelleher/JOB have played better than last season? I'd argue the opposite for a good few of those. Many were starting in Europe and in similar form over a year ago.

Kelleher in particular has arguably gone backwards.

Not sure how we can say Baird/Molony/Dunne have improved greatly since start of the season either.

Some young guys have come through, and H Byrne/TOB/Sheehan in particular look like they can move up a level.

But we've also seen the decline of our captain and starting 10, the rapid decline of our marquee second row NIQ, along with the loss of three test backs in Tomane, MCF and RK.

Like can we not just acknowledge that our form has been patchier and Munster have improved both in terms of results and squad depth

I'd be siding more with RTB on their points.

Keenan - 2 European starts plus 2 international caps. 1 European start last season (against Sarries - arguably out of position at 14). Unquestionably performing better in higher stakes games this season

Bent - 2 European inclusions this season compare to 1 last season. 80 minutes compared to 7. Probably on par with last season. You always know what you're going to get with Benty - pure reliability

Cian Kelleher - big stretch to say he's "significantly regressed". He's already chalked up nearly as many minutes as his total for last season (383 so far this season vs 455 in total last season) and he's missed the last 2 games which he'd have had a good chance of playing in both (in the case of Connacht - guaranteed). I don't really see how you could argue regression. I think the truth is both this season and last season he hasn't been delivering on the promised showed when we lost him to Connacht initially.

Doris - Regressed from last season? His most recent performance against Ulster would suggest this not to be the case. He was phenomenal. I think he has brought last seasons stratospheric form into this season and the only thing that's changed is peoples perception. Last season he was a young fella with potential beating the door down. This season he is an established player in blue and green that people expect high standards from.

Connors - Internationally capped this season. Was (allegedly) pencilled in for a cap last season before covid. Hasn't featured too much for Leinster this season. Hard to argue he has gone backwards off the back of international starts.

JOB - Least amount of discussion necessary. He is playing some of the best rugby of his career. He looks at home in the 15 shirt. It would be apples and oranges comparing this year and last year in any case as he started at 13 for 6 games last season where as he has started at 15 7 times this season

Baird - unquestionably has improved. He is now an established European player and would be an internationally capped player if not for an untimely injury. His performances have been to an extremely high standard. The only difference is peoples perception

Molony and Dunne are as they were. Especially regarding Molony, you know what you'll get with him. He is a solid squad player who will do what is required of him. Expecting more of him is setting yourself up for disappointment. Jack Dunne is a more unknown quantity who's had very little senior rugby this year - 3 sub appearances so far for 40 minutes. But keep in mind he only had 2 sub appearances for 16 minutes last season. Hard to argue either a progression or regression in his case.

To be honest I don't think we can draw any conclusions that our form has been patchier. This season is the most disruptive season in the history of the pro game. If we dissect any teams performance I think you will find similar arguments across the board.

[wixfjord]

Jaysus there's a lot of stretching there RTB. Don't know how you can say our squad has improved 'substantially' when we've lost depth through leavers and injuries and were down to academy players in the backs for a few games.

A lot of the guys you mention there were arguably in better form last year.

DK has been in excellent form for a few seasons now. Nothing new about that.

Keenan/Bent/CK/Doris/Connors/Kelleher/JOB have played better than last season? I'd argue the opposite for a good few of those. Many were starting in Europe and in similar form over a year ago.

Kelleher in particular has arguably gone backwards.

Not sure how we can say Baird/Molony/Dunne have improved greatly since start of the season either.

Some young guys have come through, and H Byrne/TOB/Sheehan in particular look like they can move up a level.

But we've also seen the decline of our captain and starting 10, the rapid decline of our marquee second row NIQ, along with the loss of three test backs in Tomane, MCF and RK.

Like can we not just acknowledge that our form has been patchier and Munster have improved both in terms of results and squad depth

I'd be siding more with RTB on their points.

Keenan - 2 European starts plus 2 international caps. 1 European start last season (against Sarries - arguably out of position at 14). Unquestionably performing better in higher stakes games this season

Bent - 2 European inclusions this season compare to 1 last season. 80 minutes compared to 7. Probably on par with last season. You always know what you're going to get with Benty - pure reliability

Cian Kelleher - big stretch to say he's "significantly regressed". He's already chalked up nearly as many minutes as his total for last season (383 so far this season vs 455 in total last season) and he's missed the last 2 games which he'd have had a good chance of playing in both (in the case of Connacht - guaranteed). I don't really see how you could argue regression. I think the truth is both this season and last season he hasn't been delivering on the promised showed when we lost him to Connacht initially.

Doris - Regressed from last season? His most recent performance against Ulster would suggest this not to be the case. He was phenomenal. I think he has brought last seasons stratospheric form into this season and the only thing that's changed is peoples perception. Last season he was a young fella with potential beating the door down. This season he is an established player in blue and green that people expect high standards from.

Connors - Internationally capped this season. Was (allegedly) pencilled in for a cap last season before covid. Hasn't featured too much for Leinster this season. Hard to argue he has gone backwards off the back of international starts.

JOB - Least amount of discussion necessary. He is playing some of the best rugby of his career. He looks at home in the 15 shirt. It would be apples and oranges comparing this year and last year in any case as he started at 13 for 6 games last season where as he has started at 15 7 times this season

Baird - unquestionably has improved. He is now an established European player and would be an internationally capped player if not for an untimely injury. His performances have been to an extremely high standard. The only difference is peoples perception

Molony and Dunne are as they were. Especially regarding Molony, you know what you'll get with him. He is a solid squad player who will do what is required of him. Expecting more of him is setting yourself up for disappointment. Jack Dunne is a more unknown quantity who's had very little senior rugby this year - 3 sub appearances so far for 40 minutes. But keep in mind he only had 2 sub appearances for 16 minutes last season. Hard to argue either a progression or regression in his case.

To be honest I don't think we can draw any conclusions that our form has been patchier. This season is the most disruptive season in the history of the pro game. If we dissect any teams performance I think you will find similar arguments across the board.

I was talking about Ronan Kelleher there, who has imo regressed quite a bit from his performances at the start of last year, certainly in terms of confidence.

As for the rest I'm not saying these guys have 'regressed' just that many were putting in equal if not better performances last year.

Doris was playing as well if not better at start of last year (Northampton away being an example).

Likewise with Keenan, Baird and Connors. All of whom were capped based on last years performances and starting big games at the end of last season.

Bent is Bent. He has been as solid as he usually has been for us.

JOB might've been given an opportunity at a higher level, but was again regularly putting in those types of performances last year.

And there's also an argument to say we've lost a huge amount of experience and there's evidence our form has dipped since the return to action (Connacht, Northampton and the games at the end of last season.)

You've also ignored the points about Sexton, Fardy and the leavers I mentioned! (Plus our lineout woes...)

[TrapperChamonix]

For a marquee player on top tier cash, de Allende has not looked value for money, outshone by centres on half the cash.

Wouldn't agree with that at all. I think he has been really good.

Agreed

[arsebiscuits1]

I was talking about Ronan Kelleher there, who has imo regressed quite a bit from his performances at the start of last year, certainly in terms of confidence.

As for the rest I'm not saying these guys have 'regressed' just that many were putting in equal if not better performances last year.

Doris was playing as well if not better at start of last year (Northampton away being an example).

Likewise with Keenan, Baird and Connors. All of whom were capped based on last years performances and starting big games at the end of last season.

Bent is Bent. He has been as solid as he usually has been for us.

JOB might've been given an opportunity at a higher level, but was again regularly putting in those types of performances last year.

And there's also an argument to say we've lost a huge amount of experience and there's evidence our form has dipped since the return to action (Connacht, Northampton and the games at the end of last season.)

You've also ignored the points about Sexton, Fardy and the leavers I mentioned! (Plus our lineout woes...)

I don't need to address points I agree with.

I was addressing your points I feel are wide of the mark.

Keenan, Baird and Connors were not capped based on last years performances. That's not how it works. You're capped based on your current performances.

Jimmy did have an excellent breakout season last year. But he has hit different heights this year. I don't know how this can be argued. Again, it's likely perception. Last season any decent performance by him was exceeding expectations as there was no benchmark. This season it's expected. For me he is still far exceeding these expectations.

Doris has not been putting in lesser performances this season. It's perception.

Connacht and Northampton games were outliers. Northampton we lost 2 starters before the game and had to reshuffle our bench from a 6-2 to a 5-3 split. We subsequently lost Jimmy after 8 minutes and Garry had to play through a (re)broken jaw.

The Connacht game was even more disruptive. So much chopping and changing.

Obviously there is an argument that teams should be above disruption, next man up etc etc etc. But I believe there is a point where it's reasonable to accept there will be a dip in standard due to factors we can't control. These 2 games are prime examples

[wixfjord]

I was talking about Ronan Kelleher there, who has imo regressed quite a bit from his performances at the start of last year, certainly in terms of confidence.

As for the rest I'm not saying these guys have 'regressed' just that many were putting in equal if not better performances last year.

Doris was playing as well if not better at start of last year (Northampton away being an example).

Likewise with Keenan, Baird and Connors. All of whom were capped based on last years performances and starting big games at the end of last season.

Bent is Bent. He has been as solid as he usually has been for us.

JOB might've been given an opportunity at a higher level, but was again regularly putting in those types of performances last year.

And there's also an argument to say we've lost a huge amount of experience and there's evidence our form has dipped since the return to action (Connacht, Northampton and the games at the end of last season.)

You've also ignored the points about Sexton, Fardy and the leavers I mentioned! (Plus our lineout woes...)

I don't need to address points I agree with.

I was addressing your points I feel are wide of the mark.

Keenan, Baird and Connors were not capped based on last years performances. That's not how it works. You're capped based on your current performances.

Jimmy did have an excellent breakout season last year. But he has hit different heights this year. I don't know how this can be argued. Again, it's likely perception. Last season any decent performance by him was exceeding expectations as there was no benchmark. This season it's expected. For me he is still far exceeding these expectations.

Doris has not been putting in lesser performances this season. It's perception.

Connacht and Northampton games were outliers. Northampton we lost 2 starters before the game and had to reshuffle our bench from a 6-2 to a 5-3 split. We subsequently lost Jimmy after 8 minutes and Garry had to play through a (re)broken jaw.

The Connacht game was even more disruptive. So much chopping and changing.

Obviously there is an argument that teams should be above disruption, next man up etc etc etc. But I believe there is a point where it's reasonable to accept there will be a dip in standard due to factors we can't control. These 2 games are prime examples

Each of Baird, Connors and Keenan were brought into the Irish squad named on October 8th. Only Keenan had any game time in a Leinster jersey this season at that stage - 1 game against Dragons. So yeah, they were capped based on last year's performances!

Once again, I said 'Doris was playing as well if not better at start of last year'. Didn't say anything about 'lesser performances'.

To go back to the RTB point, I don't believe our squad has improved 'substantially' and I think you can't just say games in which we played poorly are 'outliers'. That's the sort of mentality that lulls you into a false sense of superiority and causes results like the Sarries game.

If you look at our form since the return, there have been signs of regression in quite a few areas of our game.