Pro 14 2020-2021 season

[Oldschool]

Does anyone understand what the change in direction for the SA teams is all about.
Why (if they are) are they breaking their links with Super Rugby for example.
Is it just money or are there other issues.
Will they be allowed to qualify for the HCC.
Presumably yes and would that be more lucrative.
As a result this will bring pressure to increase the number of teams that qualify for the HCC while actually improving its quality.
How do the French and English (in particular) feel about a stronger? Pro14/16 competition.
Has SARU got designs on a place in the 6?Ns.
Whither NZ and Aus Rugby.
Was this their reason for driving a global competition.
Are SA a sort of Trojan Horse to bring this about.
????????????

[neiliog93]

Does anyone understand what the change in direction for the SA teams is all about.
Why (if they are) are they breaking their links with Super Rugby for example.
Is it just money or are there other issues.
Will they be allowed to qualify for the HCC.
Presumably yes and would that be more lucrative.
As a result this will bring pressure to increase the number of teams that qualify for the HCC while actually improving its quality.
How do the French and English (in particular) feel about a stronger? Pro14/16 competition.
Has SARU got designs on a place in the 6?Ns.
Whither NZ and Aus Rugby.
Was this their reason for driving a global competition.
Are SA a sort of Trojan Horse to bring this about.
????????????

SA breaking links due to money and timezone compatibility. This could make the Pro 14/16 a much better league, if it can avoid the pitfalls of post-expansion Super Rugby.

[blockhead]

You gotta think CVC is behind the scenes pulling the strings to get these big 4 into the Heino asap too.

[neiliog93]

I remember hearing the head of SARU speaking very candidly last year. He said that everyone in SA was surprised by the strength of the better teams in the Pro 14, and that they had expected the South African sides to dominate.

There is a lot of arrogance in South African and New Zealand rugby about their domestic rugby being superior to European domestic rugby (which, unlike in the international game, I don't think is necessarily the case) - I would love to see the South African sides join European club rugby, because I think their superiority complex would quickly look very silly.

[Dave Cahill]

You gotta think CVC is behind the scenes pulling the strings to get these big 4 into the Heino asap too.

Really? I think that CVC would be happy if there were never another Champions Cup match played. Nothing in it for them and it undermines their properties.

[LeinsterLeader]

I remember hearing the head of SARU speaking very candidly last year. He said that everyone in SA was surprised by the strength of the better teams in the Pro 14, and that they had expected the South African sides to dominate.

There is a lot of arrogance in South African and New Zealand rugby about their domestic rugby being superior to European domestic rugby (which, unlike in the international game, I don't think is necessarily the case) - I would love to see the South African sides join European club rugby, because I think their superiority complex would quickly look very silly.

I think the thousands of miles travel is a huge leveller too! I could see a scenario (post covid) where SA teams find an away win as rare as Hen's teeth and vice versa when teams from this side of the world go over there.

[hugonaut]

I might be in the minority here, but I think this is ridiculous. The idea that you make a 19,000km round trip [Durban to Dublin, return] to fulfil a regular season fixture is absolutely crazy. It is mind-boggling. On an environmental basis alone it is irresponsible.

To my eyes, this is a Celtic Tiger type of idea – just excess and financial greed. "It makes sense because they're [almost] in the same timezone." No, it doesn't make sense because South Africa is at the far end of a different continent, about 9500km away.

You could justify the inclusion of Italian teams in the Celtic League because Italy is a relatively short trip away, they're a European country who play in the Six Nations, and there was a general acceptance amongst fans in Ireland, Scotland and Wales that including Italian clubs in the competition would help to grow the game in Italy.

The Springboks don't play in the same competitions as the other teams in the league. So if, for example, Leinster get drawn for a tour of South Africa in February or March [during the Six Nations] you'll have a team stripped of anybody near the international set-up playing against full-strength SA Super Rugby teams. Academy lads versus World Cup winners. The integrity of the league isn't damaged, it doesn't even exist.

South Africa is a huge country with an enormously strong rugby culture - 650,000 registered players. They don't need help growing their game. They're the f*cking champions of the world!

They have a long standing [120+ years old] competition in the Currie Cup, which they can easily format to regain pride of place in their domestic rugby calendar. Super Rugby Aotearoa and Super Rugby AU demonstrated recently that national competitions can be very successful in terms of playing standard, support, atmosphere and media coverage.

On the other hand, Super Rugby grew to be a bloated, transcontinental mess of a tournament which became less and less relevant as it expanded. Apparently the model we are now trying to follow. For. F*ck's. Sake.

[leinsterforever]

They wouldn't be jetting off every second week or something, though. Non-SA teams would probably have two games in SA (so one trip a season) and SA teams would probably have 6 games in Europe (so maybe two mini tours of three games each?)

Maybe they could schedule SA derbies around 6N time so it's not weakened European sides going over.

[Oldschool]

The SA teams have done a fair bit of traveling for Super Rugby so they probably don't see travelling to Europe too big an ask.
Follow the money is probably the real story.
It would be interesting to hear views on what the impact on Oceanic Rugby is going to be.

[leinsterforever]

The SA teams have done a fair bit of traveling for Super Rugby so they probably don't see travelling to Europe too big an ask.
Follow the money is probably the real story.
It would be interesting to hear views on what the impact on Oceanic Rugby is going to be.

There's talk of a 10-team comp featuring the five NZ franchises, a Pacific Island team and some Aussie teams. Naturally enough, the Aussies are pushing for all five of their teams to be involved.

[TerenureJim]

I'd say an Asiatic Pro 12 with five NZ, five AU a Jpn team and an island side will line up nicely with a chance to grow "provinces" in a second islands team and possibly HK and Shanghai may be a runner. Biggest loser here with the SA move to Pro14/16 is the Argentine set up, Jaguares were decent and really drove the national side improvements.

[backrower8]

I might be in the minority here, but I think this is ridiculous. The idea that you make a 19,000km round trip [Durban to Dublin, return] to fulfil a regular season fixture is absolutely crazy. It is mind-boggling. On an environmental basis alone it is irresponsible.

To my eyes, this is a Celtic Tiger type of idea – just excess and financial greed. "It makes sense because they're [almost] in the same timezone." No, it doesn't make sense because South Africa is at the far end of a different continent, about 9500km away.

You could justify the inclusion of Italian teams in the Celtic League because Italy is a relatively short trip away, they're a European country who play in the Six Nations, and there was a general acceptance amongst fans in Ireland, Scotland and Wales that including Italian clubs in the competition would help to grow the game in Italy.

The Springboks don't play in the same competitions as the other teams in the league. So if, for example, Leinster get drawn for a tour of South Africa in February or March [during the Six Nations] you'll have a team stripped of anybody near the international set-up playing against full-strength SA Super Rugby teams. Academy lads versus World Cup winners. The integrity of the league isn't damaged, it doesn't even exist.

South Africa is a huge country with an enormously strong rugby culture - 650,000 registered players. They don't need help growing their game. They're the f*cking champions of the world!

They have a long standing [120+ years old] competition in the Currie Cup, which they can easily format to regain pride of place in their domestic rugby calendar. Super Rugby Aotearoa and Super Rugby AU demonstrated recently that national competitions can be very successful in terms of playing standard, support, atmosphere and media coverage.

On the other hand, Super Rugby grew to be a bloated, transcontinental mess of a tournament which became less and less relevant as it expanded. Apparently the model we are now trying to follow. For. F*ck's. Sake.

[ronk]

Fair point Hugo. I havent given enough consideration to the possibility of SA clubs going their own way.

They may be happy folding all and going full on for the Currie Cup but in that case they'd also want to pull the Cheetahs and the Kings to consolidate.

[johng]

So would people prefer a B&I league ahead of a League including SA sides? Because it seems to be going in one of those 2 directions.

I'm not welded to either idea personally. But jumping into bed with the PRL is probably slightly worse for me. At the end of the day as long as we get to see Rugby I'll be happy.

[wixfjord]

As a spectacle, a B&I league would be the far greater attraction for all involved.

But it would play havoc with our ability to rest players and manage game time, especially if there was relegation involved.

I agree with Hugo above FWIW, the 'Pro 16' is a frankenstein league with no real logic behind it and too much of a priority put on the 'SA have money and are in our time zone' argument.

[Dave Cahill]

Lots of good and valid points being made here. One point that hasn't yet been made is that the South African ownership model is more compatible with the IRFU's than that of the GP.

[paddyor]

As a spectacle, a B&I league would be the far greater attraction for all involved.

But it would play havoc with our ability to rest players and manage game time, especially if there was relegation involved.

I agree with Hugo above FWIW, the 'Pro 16' is a frankenstein league with no real logic behind it and too much of a priority put on the 'SA have money and are in our time zone' argument.

What would CVC get out of that though? They're looking to get their foot in the door in the HEC as well apparently. They'd be condensing 3 properties into 1 and loosing access to the SA market.

Plus if you think Super Rugby was a bloated and unwieldy what would a B&I league look like. We've run thru the permutations here a few times and they're all a bit convoluted. 22-24 teams won't work.

[Twist]

A major drawback with the B&I League idea, to my mind, is the damage it would do to European rugby. The European competitions would essentially just involve teams from two leagues. The same fixtures would repeat across the season too often.

Was there really that much wrong with the old (pre-champions cup and BT) system?

[Dexter]

Ulster allowing supporters back this weekend. A limited number, 600. They are taking applications from their version of the season-ticket/membership holders and balloting for 300 to get 2 tickets each (£20 each)
There'll be a total of 850 in the stadium.

[dropkick]

There are pros and cons with everything. Adding SA teams to the pro12 was a bit of a Frankenstein move alright and hasn't worked out for anyone mainly because (in my opinion) the quality of the kings and to a lesser extent the cheetahs were not good enough to make up for the Frankenstein expansion.


Having the big 4 SA sides in the league is a different matter. If they can attract a decent amount of fans it's going to be good optics and give the league a lift rather than the bad optics of Cheetahs and Kings that are dragging the league down. To the average NH fan, they can only name 2 or 3 players between the 2 squads. The big 4 SA teams will be loaded with world cup winning springboks.


It will be good for Irish teams to face these teams. There'll be about 16 games between Irish teams and SA's big 4 depending on the structure of the league. Thats 16 games that's more exciting for fans than the current games Vs Kings and Cheetahs although the Cheetahs are tough to beat at home.


Imo the pro16 should keep things simple regarding the structure. Play everyone once except for derbies with will be played home and away (Italy and Scotland can combine) and have one table. That's 18 regular season games. The pro14 has that advantage over super rugby which turned into a mess that no-one could understand.