Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[blockhead]

Well, Munster are the 3rd team in Ireland as of now. And that's official.

[munster#1]

The only thing consistent about Munster rugby is their record in semi finals over the last 10 years where they have proven, over and over again, that they are not “one of the best teams in Europe”.

Hold on, doesn't that record of getting to the last four not prove that they have been consistently one of the best teams in Europe?

What is it 5/6 semis and a quarter? How many other clubs have that record?

I mean getting to semis consistently points to them being top 4 and just unable to get over the likes of ourselves, Racing, Sarries etc.

I think the poster failed to grasp that, if you regularly make it in to the last 4, then surely you would be considered one of the top teams?
Once or even twice could be considered a blip, but you don’t regularly get there because you are lucky.

This year was very unfortunate in that we had 3 of the teams that would be expected to make the semi, were all drawn in one group.
Unfortunately for Munster they were the team that lost out, because unfortunately they were not good enough.

Next season’s format will be very interesting, I think we could see some big upsets.

[ronk]

Best of the rest rather than rest of the best

[wixfjord]

Once again, the total unwillingness to give any praise to Munster or see the objective reality on here sort of diminishes some of the points made.

How many other clubs have been in 6 semis and a quarter over the last decade?

Like clearly, no matter how strong your blue bias, you can see the objective reality that Munster have been at the top table because they've consistently been in the top four.

The problem, as it always has been over the last decade, is they don't have the extra quality and size to get over the line.

[blockhead]

Once again, the total unwillingness to give any praise to Munster or see the objective reality on here sort of diminishes some of the points made.

How many other clubs have been in 6 semis and a quarter over the last decade?

Like clearly, no matter how strong your blue bias, you can see the objective reality that Munster have been at the top table because they've consistently been in the top four.

The problem, as it always has been over the last decade, is they don't have the extra quality and size to get over the line.

We've just ended Munster season, again!
Now we're just sticking the boot in. It's all part of the fun.

[ronk]

Once again, the total unwillingness to give any praise to Munster or see the objective reality on here sort of diminishes some of the points made.

How many other clubs have been in 6 semis and a quarter over the last decade?

Like clearly, no matter how strong your blue bias, you can see the objective reality that Munster have been at the top table because they've consistently been in the top four.

The problem, as it always has been over the last decade, is they don't have the extra quality and size to get over the line.

Their achievements are well understood. How do Munster fans feel they have performed relative to their ambitions?

The problem is that they took the Toulon/Racing spending route without anything close to the budget. It may have briefly made sense when they still had some of the old guard left.

[munster#1]

Looking forward with a positive view, and risking the possibility of getting abused by the usual suspects, I will try to go through what I hope we see over the next few months.

Firstly, and most importantly, we need to keep this virus contained.
The whole league and the HC could be over before it begins if we see a massive second wave over the winter months.

From what is more controllable, I hope we see some further development in the way Munster plays and who the play.
This season we got to see the likes of Coombes, Fineen, Healy, Knox, Casey, JOS, Barron and Daly all get valuable minutes on the field.
Some of them showed just why they have been hyped up so much during their time in the underage system.

Munster need to continue building on this, allowing those players the opportunity to make the jersey their own, and push the player currently in possession of the jersey to improve.

The biggest positive of all would be to have Carberry fit for an entire season, and to not be selected for Ireland, giving him the chance to get good minutes on the field rather than warming the green bench.

As already said, Munster have a very good foundation. They are a very good team at the lineout and at the breakdown.
Some improvements can be made to the scrum, but even then it can’t be seen as a weakness.
There appears to be good progress made in widening the game, but more improvements are needed.

I would like to see the following:
Someone establish themselves as the nailed on 7,
Knox and/or Salanoa establish themselves as a regular in the match day 23 for the big games,
Daly to make the 15 jersey his own.
Nash to push on, to reach is obvious potential.
Fineen to become a starting player when all are fit.
Casey to really push Murray, and to start all games when Murray isn’t available.
One of the academy out halves to be given the minutes needed to progress.

[ronk]

Hard to plan with competition formats and schedules still being worked out.

Internationals will be away in key positions so development will be forced. Beyond that there is good scope for development but it involves planning. A key to prioritise development is out half. Use JJ and Scannell at 12 or off the bench and give guys a chance. You won’t have Carbery either way, plan without him.

Develop the front row, don’t just flog Archer. Recruit no one. Use experienced players to partner and mentor young players. Give 2nd chances, everyone gets one. No more persona non grata selections.

[ronk]

The last sentence is surprisingly important. Guys like Gallagher and McCarthy are talented and still young. They will be a malign influence if they are left out in the cold for the sin of trusting Munster. If everyone gets a fair shot then most of them will give it everything.

[paddyor]

Radge had an interesting column in the Examiner recently, in which he wrote:
"Not every thought is red. I wonder sometimes about Leinster too. Their age profile, that ‘middle tier’ demographic. Loads of experience and plenty of freshman talent. Not so sure in between. There are perceived Leinster strengths which could be weaknesses before they know it."
[source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/c ... 43042.html ]

I think he's a superb analyst in general, so it was thought-provoking to hear him say that. I tend to bunch players into three, five-year age grades: young [20-24], prime [25-29] and veteran [30-34]. Unless I'm wrong, his 'middle tier' demographic refers to players between 25-29, i.e. born 1991-1995

There are 17 of those in the squad

1. Ed Byrne [b.1993] Pete Dooley [b.1994] at loosehead;
2. James Tracy* [b.1991] at hooker;
3. Tadgh Furlong*‡ [b.1992] at tighthead;
4/5. Ross Molony [b.1994] at lock
6/7/8. Jack Conan* [b.1992], Josh van der Flier* [b.1993], Dan Leavy* [b. 1994], Josh Murphy [b.1995] in the backrow;
9. Jamison Gibson-Park [b.1992] and Luke McGrath* [b.1993] at scrumhalf
10. Ross Byrne* [b.1995] at outhalf;
12/13. Robbie Henshaw*‡ [b.1993], Rory O'Loughlin* [b.1994] and Garry Ringrose* [b.1995] in the centres;
11/14/15. James Lowe [b.1992], Adam Byrne* [b.1994] and Cian Kelleher [b.1994] in the back three

I have to say that I don't know where ROG is coming from on this one. Lads like Furlong [44 Irish caps], Henshaw [43 caps], Ringrose [29 caps], van der Flier [26 caps], Luke McGrath [19 caps], Jack Conan [17 caps] and Leavy [11 caps] were pretty prominent at test level over the last three/four years.

The two areas where we look a little thin are lock [although you could put in Josh Murphy as a hybrid] and outhalf. Obviously Carbery is a Leinster product and was a loss not mitigated by "the good of Irish rugby" – becaues no f*cking good came of it – but we have Ciaran Frawley [b.1997] and Harry Byrne [b.1999] already playing regularly in the Pro14. We are even better off at lock, with James Ryan [b.1996] – the best rugby player in the country – Jack Dunne [b.1998] and Ryan Baird [b.1999] already in the mix.

It'd be something I'd be keen to see ROG expand on.

But would you be confident that they'll will be sufficent to replace the experienced players on their way out over the coming 12-24 months is what he means I think? You make a good counter point but I suppose you don't really know until it happens. When it came to the crunch in last years HEC final coaches opted for an out of form McGrath over Dooley/Byrne at LH(unless oth injured I can't remember).

It's not inconceivable we get 3 more years out of Healy but does that raise questions about the quality of his successors?

It's a lot to swap out with no hiccups.
This season: Kearney, McFadden
12-24 Months: Sexton, Healy, Bent, Cronin, Toner, Fardy,
Already gone: Heaslip, SOB, Strauss

i'd be quite surprsied if it went smoothly.

[Keith]

Looking forward with a positive view, and risking the possibility of getting abused by the usual suspects, I will try to go through what I hope we see over the next few months.

Firstly, and most importantly, we need to keep this virus contained.
The whole league and the HC could be over before it begins if we see a massive second wave over the winter months.

From what is more controllable, I hope we see some further development in the way Munster plays and who the play.
This season we got to see the likes of Coombes, Fineen, Healy, Knox, Casey, JOS, Barron and Daly all get valuable minutes on the field.
Some of them showed just why they have been hyped up so much during their time in the underage system.

Munster need to continue building on this, allowing those players the opportunity to make the jersey their own, and push the player currently in possession of the jersey to improve.

The biggest positive of all would be to have Carberry fit for an entire season, and to not be selected for Ireland, giving him the chance to get good minutes on the field rather than warming the green bench.

As already said, Munster have a very good foundation. They are a very good team at the lineout and at the breakdown.
Some improvements can be made to the scrum, but even then it can’t be seen as a weakness.
There appears to be good progress made in widening the game, but more improvements are needed.

I would like to see the following:
Someone establish themselves as the nailed on 7,
Knox and/or Salanoa establish themselves as a regular in the match day 23 for the big games,
Daly to make the 15 jersey his own.
Nash to push on, to reach is obvious potential.
Fineen to become a starting player when all are fit.
Casey to really push Murray, and to start all games when Murray isn’t available.
One of the academy out halves to be given the minutes needed to progress.

I don't get the hype for Fineen to be honest he looks under powered and can't force Billy Holland out of an average pack. There are some exciting prospects there though with the likes of Ahern and Crowley put in some of the most impressive performances I've seen at u20 level from Irish players.

[blockhead]

From what I've heard, and I have my sources, there is a schism between Van Grann/Ferriera and Larkham/Rowntree.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Well it sure a fucx wasn’t Larkham who designed a game plan that led to Keith Earls and Andrew Conway running a combined total of three metres...

[munster#1]

Looking forward with a positive view, and risking the possibility of getting abused by the usual suspects, I will try to go through what I hope we see over the next few months.

Firstly, and most importantly, we need to keep this virus contained.
The whole league and the HC could be over before it begins if we see a massive second wave over the winter months.

From what is more controllable, I hope we see some further development in the way Munster plays and who the play.
This season we got to see the likes of Coombes, Fineen, Healy, Knox, Casey, JOS, Barron and Daly all get valuable minutes on the field.
Some of them showed just why they have been hyped up so much during their time in the underage system.

Munster need to continue building on this, allowing those players the opportunity to make the jersey their own, and push the player currently in possession of the jersey to improve.

The biggest positive of all would be to have Carberry fit for an entire season, and to not be selected for Ireland, giving him the chance to get good minutes on the field rather than warming the green bench.

As already said, Munster have a very good foundation. They are a very good team at the lineout and at the breakdown.
Some improvements can be made to the scrum, but even then it can’t be seen as a weakness.
There appears to be good progress made in widening the game, but more improvements are needed.

I would like to see the following:
Someone establish themselves as the nailed on 7,
Knox and/or Salanoa establish themselves as a regular in the match day 23 for the big games,
Daly to make the 15 jersey his own.
Nash to push on, to reach is obvious potential.
Fineen to become a starting player when all are fit.
Casey to really push Murray, and to start all games when Murray isn’t available.
One of the academy out halves to be given the minutes needed to progress.

I don't get the hype for Fineen to be honest he looks under powered and can't force Billy Holland out of an average pack. There are some exciting prospects there though with the likes of Ahern and Crowley put in some of the most impressive performances I've seen at u20 level from Irish players.

Fineen is 22, and has played a fair amount of rugby, both in Europe and the league.
He was selected behind Billy, as Billy is a very valuable player in the lineout. Much like the selection of Baird behind Toner.

One thing I wouldn’t say about Fineen is that he is underpowered? Care to elaborate on that comment?
I really don’t understand the average pack comment either. That average pack gave the Leinster pack a fair bit of trouble. They came out on top at the breakdown and the lineout in both games.

Agreed on the exciting prospects, especially looking at Crowley and Ahern. Rare that I’ve seen 2 more promising prospects at U20 level. If they can fulfil their promise then Munster could be well served in 2 very important positions for a long time to come.

[Keith]

Looking forward with a positive view, and risking the possibility of getting abused by the usual suspects, I will try to go through what I hope we see over the next few months.

Firstly, and most importantly, we need to keep this virus contained.
The whole league and the HC could be over before it begins if we see a massive second wave over the winter months.

From what is more controllable, I hope we see some further development in the way Munster plays and who the play.
This season we got to see the likes of Coombes, Fineen, Healy, Knox, Casey, JOS, Barron and Daly all get valuable minutes on the field.
Some of them showed just why they have been hyped up so much during their time in the underage system.

Munster need to continue building on this, allowing those players the opportunity to make the jersey their own, and push the player currently in possession of the jersey to improve.

The biggest positive of all would be to have Carberry fit for an entire season, and to not be selected for Ireland, giving him the chance to get good minutes on the field rather than warming the green bench.

As already said, Munster have a very good foundation. They are a very good team at the lineout and at the breakdown.
Some improvements can be made to the scrum, but even then it can’t be seen as a weakness.
There appears to be good progress made in widening the game, but more improvements are needed.

I would like to see the following:
Someone establish themselves as the nailed on 7,
Knox and/or Salanoa establish themselves as a regular in the match day 23 for the big games,
Daly to make the 15 jersey his own.
Nash to push on, to reach is obvious potential.
Fineen to become a starting player when all are fit.
Casey to really push Murray, and to start all games when Murray isn’t available.
One of the academy out halves to be given the minutes needed to progress.

I don't get the hype for Fineen to be honest he looks under powered and can't force Billy Holland out of an average pack. There are some exciting prospects there though with the likes of Ahern and Crowley put in some of the most impressive performances I've seen at u20 level from Irish players.

Fineen is 22, and has played a fair amount of rugby, both in Europe and the league.
He was selected behind Billy, as Billy is a very valuable player in the lineout. Much like the selection of Baird behind Toner.

One thing I wouldn’t say about Fineen is that he is underpowered? Care to elaborate on that comment?
I really don’t understand the average pack comment either. That average pack gave the Leinster pack a fair bit of trouble. They came out on top at the breakdown and the lineout in both games.

Agreed on the exciting prospects, especially looking at Crowley and Ahern. Rare that I’ve seen 2 more promising prospects at U20 level. If they can fulfil their promise then Munster could be well served in 2 very important positions for a long time to come.

Toner is an international quality 2nd row and has done it all really. Baird would have to be pretty special to displace him so quick. I'll be happy to be proven wrong by Fineen but I just don't see it at the minute.

Fair enough maybe average is the wrong word as Munster are still a top team but still quite a way off Europe's elite. The pack has been shown up numerous times over the last few seasons, they really struggle to get over the gain line against top teams (as proven on friday) Winning a few turnovers and lineouts doesn't change that.

[offshorerules]

The only thing consistent about Munster rugby is their record in semi finals over the last 10 years where they have proven, over and over again, that they are not “one of the best teams in Europe”.

Hold on, doesn't that record of getting to the last four not prove that they have been consistently one of the best teams in Europe?

What is it 5/6 semis and a quarter? How many other clubs have that record?

I mean getting to semis consistently points to them being top 4 and just unable to get over the likes of ourselves, Racing, Sarries etc.

No it doesn’t and that’s part of the problem. It shows that consistently, and repeatedly they have failed to reach the standard required to be considered one of the best sides. If you want to be considered one of the best sides in Europe you actually need to be in contention to win something. Being incapable of winning a semi... well that just makes you poor. How many finals have Ulster made in the same time? Are 5hey one of 5he best sides in Europe?

[munster#1]

I don't get the hype for Fineen to be honest he looks under powered and can't force Billy Holland out of an average pack. There are some exciting prospects there though with the likes of Ahern and Crowley put in some of the most impressive performances I've seen at u20 level from Irish players.

Fineen is 22, and has played a fair amount of rugby, both in Europe and the league.
He was selected behind Billy, as Billy is a very valuable player in the lineout. Much like the selection of Baird behind Toner.

One thing I wouldn’t say about Fineen is that he is underpowered? Care to elaborate on that comment?
I really don’t understand the average pack comment either. That average pack gave the Leinster pack a fair bit of trouble. They came out on top at the breakdown and the lineout in both games.

Agreed on the exciting prospects, especially looking at Crowley and Ahern. Rare that I’ve seen 2 more promising prospects at U20 level. If they can fulfil their promise then Munster could be well served in 2 very important positions for a long time to come.

Toner is an international quality 2nd row and has done it all really. Baird would have to be pretty special to displace him so quick. I'll be happy to be proven wrong by Fineen but I just don't see it at the minute.

Fair enough maybe average is the wrong word as Munster are still a top team but still quite a way off Europe's elite. The pack has been shown up numerous times over the last few seasons, they really struggle to get over the gain line against top teams (as proven on friday) Winning a few turnovers and lineouts doesn't change that.

Care to explain what you see wrong with Fineen’s game?

I don’t want to have this conversation dragged into a blue v red conversation, so I don’t really want to get into the performance of the Munster pack over the 2 games against Leinster, as I feel that any comments I do make will be misconstrued.

[Keith]

Fineen is 22, and has played a fair amount of rugby, both in Europe and the league.
He was selected behind Billy, as Billy is a very valuable player in the lineout. Much like the selection of Baird behind Toner.

One thing I wouldn’t say about Fineen is that he is underpowered? Care to elaborate on that comment?
I really don’t understand the average pack comment either. That average pack gave the Leinster pack a fair bit of trouble. They came out on top at the breakdown and the lineout in both games.

Agreed on the exciting prospects, especially looking at Crowley and Ahern. Rare that I’ve seen 2 more promising prospects at U20 level. If they can fulfil their promise then Munster could be well served in 2 very important positions for a long time to come.

Toner is an international quality 2nd row and has done it all really. Baird would have to be pretty special to displace him so quick. I'll be happy to be proven wrong by Fineen but I just don't see it at the minute.

Fair enough maybe average is the wrong word as Munster are still a top team but still quite a way off Europe's elite. The pack has been shown up numerous times over the last few seasons, they really struggle to get over the gain line against top teams (as proven on friday) Winning a few turnovers and lineouts doesn't change that.

Care to explain what you see wrong with Fineen’s game?

I don’t want to have this conversation dragged into a blue v red conversation, so I don’t really want to get into the performance of the Munster pack over the 2 games against Leinster, as I feel that any comments I do make will be misconstrued.

There is nothing "wrong" with his game, I just find it bizarre seeing numerous comments from Munster fans on various forums basically claiming he is Munsters saviour. JVG obviously sees that he's not quite at the required standard yet too. But like you said he is still young and could certainly (and hopefully) prove me wrong and go on to play numerous times for Ireland.

[ronk]

.
I don't get the hype for Fineen to be honest he looks under powered and can't force Billy Holland out of an average pack. There are some exciting prospects there though with the likes of Ahern and Crowley put in some of the most impressive performances I've seen at u20 level from Irish players.

Fineen’s future is at 6. But he’ll get time in the row for a while because Munster don’t have an issue with small locks.

Hard to pick him there consistently right now for Munster without causing complications with another player who gives good angry face.

He’s a decent player and could develop to a higher level.

[munster#1]

Toner is an international quality 2nd row and has done it all really. Baird would have to be pretty special to displace him so quick. I'll be happy to be proven wrong by Fineen but I just don't see it at the minute.

Fair enough maybe average is the wrong word as Munster are still a top team but still quite a way off Europe's elite. The pack has been shown up numerous times over the last few seasons, they really struggle to get over the gain line against top teams (as proven on friday) Winning a few turnovers and lineouts doesn't change that.

Care to explain what you see wrong with Fineen’s game?

I don’t want to have this conversation dragged into a blue v red conversation, so I don’t really want to get into the performance of the Munster pack over the 2 games against Leinster, as I feel that any comments I do make will be misconstrued.

There is nothing "wrong" with his game, I just find it bizarre seeing numerous comments from Munster fans on various forums basically claiming he is Munsters saviour. JVG obviously sees that he's not quite at the required standard yet too. But like you said he is still young and could certainly (and hopefully) prove me wrong and go on to play numerous times for Ireland.

Well I definitely wouldn’t be touting him as Munster’s saviour, and I haven’t really seen anyone claim that to be the case?

There is no doubting that he is a very talented player for such a young player.
You don’t get that number of games as a young forward unless you have something to offer.
The one thing that you said, that I completely disagree with is that he is underpowered. For me, he is very powerful, and still has some growing to do.

I’m not sure that he will go on to collect a high number of Irish caps, but he is definitely one for the future.
His height is the biggest concern, at 6’4” he is too small for a top end second row, so he may have to adjust his game to play in the back row, at either 6 or 8, and that area may be a bit congested.