Munster V Ulster HEC 2012

[artaneboy]

Anyone else just delighted that Munster don't get to take over our home ground and flood it in red for a day?

I pesonally will be delighted to welcome Ulster to Lansdowne Road and join them as an Ulster man for the day, but when it comes to Munster hosting a game there, it would just feel so wrong, feels like our home ground and no one elses.

SUFTUM. Well done lads. I'll be in Lansdowne for your semi, cheering you on.

No! Frankly I think that's a childish post.

The RDS is our home ground now (still have a soft spot for DB) and we only visit the Aviva for a day- just like everyone from the FAI to Michael Bublé.

So stop wumming! Leave that to the bitter and disappointed from ... err...another province.

[artaneboy]

Ronk wrote
Ulster's defence was immense, Munster had a lot of ball but very little quality possession and they usually wasted that soon enough. Munster's shape went, there are certain things that you don't want happening. Paul O'Connell carrying the ball 19 times is impressive and I wouldn't like to have to tackle him once, but when he carries that often, his side is liable to lose.

There's a good point there on POC's carrying style and what it says about Munster's game. Aside from the amount of carrying, it has to be said that his standard tactic is to ground for the recycle rather than the off-load. Just watched Nathan's off-load to Rougerie that led to Clermont's try. It's nothing outrageous, but for all his many undoubted talents, I could never see Paulie chancing that. The lack of a natural off-loading game between forwards and backs that is emblematic of Munster's prediciment.

[ronk]

Ronk wrote
Ulster's defence was immense, Munster had a lot of ball but very little quality possession and they usually wasted that soon enough. Munster's shape went, there are certain things that you don't want happening. Paul O'Connell carrying the ball 19 times is impressive and I wouldn't like to have to tackle him once, but when he carries that often, his side is liable to lose.

There's a good point there on POC's carrying style and what it says about Munster's game. Aside from the amount of carrying, it has to be said that his standard tactic is to ground for the recycle rather than the off-load. Just watched Nathan's off-load to Rougerie that led to Clermont's try. It's nothing outrageous, but for all his many undoubted talents, I could never see Paulie chancing that. The lack of a natural off-loading game between forwards and backs that is emblematic of Munster's prediciment.

That's not their game though and they'd need to start over to do it. They have players who are good at what they do and won't be nearly as good trying to be someone else. Donncha O'Callaghan is at his best when he does what he's good at. Waste of time trying to get him offloading like he's Nathan Hines. Same with Paul O'Connell, he doesn't need to offload, he can carry and if there's quick ball there's still a good attacking platform. It got them two Heineken Cups. They just need to do more with the quick ball, phase after phase only works if the defence can't reset often. There isn't nearly enough deception or the ability to exploit space fast enough, Munster are too easy to predict for a defense so they get lined up and defenders can concentrate their efforts rather than having the opposite happen. Foley can help with that a little, signings like Downey and Laulala will too because they can generate go forward ball before going wide but more is needed too.

Too often yesterday I saw space evaporating on Munster attacks due to prevarication, poor lines or just simply bad passing. The ball went to hand, but no damage was done to the defence. They're playing with incredibly pace and physicality but there are times when they look less organised than J2 teams I've played on. Not good enough for Ireland, not good enough for the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup.

[meinster]

Great post Ronk!

Good one too, artaneboy above. I'm not sure if the anti-Munster / anyone but Munster is growing, or just less people are responding to the obvious WUMs. Certainly, there seems to be an unhealthy balance of posts about Munster, rather than Leinster. One of the teams are through to a semi after a cracking display of rugby in an almost full house at the Aviva, scoring one of the best tries I've seen in years. At least there's some decent analysis/opinion in a few of the Munster-related posts (like Ronk's and those being objective in discussing Munster's problems); a refreshing change from the oft-posted "screw Munster [regardless of what's going on in our own house]" brigade.

[ronk]

There was by the way some good work by Munster for Zebo's try. Decent pace sustained for the build up play and some good linkup work for the move to get it wide. Hurley went in and acted scrumhalf so there was quick ball and Donnacha Ryan was first receiver and did the crucial deep pass behind to set up the Munster secondary line and buy the space out wide.

When we look at breakdown work a key moment was Chris Henry's tackle and jackel move on 18 minutes. Wallace is right up in Jones' face 15m behind the gainline which shows how much little trouble their passing was giving Ulster. Jones steps him but goes immediately into contact with Henry. Mafi tries to clear but he's not low enough and they get into a wrestle, Henry starts to win. Tuohy considers joining but takes point in the defensive line. Ryan and O'Gara go in to help Mafi but not especially effectively. It's now 4 Munster players with just one Ulster player, 5 if you count Murray who's too slow while his window to get the ball away closes. Ferris senses trouble and piles in, kicking the ball out of the ruck. O'Connell dives on it first but is on his own on the ground for 4-5 seconds against Tuohy, Ferris and Wannenburg. The biased ref blows for a penalty eventually. Pienaar kicks a monster penalty 16-0 after 20 minutes

[artaneboy]

There was by the way some good work by Munster for Zebo's try. Decent pace sustained for the build up play and some good linkup work for the move to get it wide. Hurley went in and acted scrumhalf so there was quick ball and Donnacha Ryan was first receiver and did the crucial deep pass behind to set up the Munster secondary line and buy the space out wide.

When we look at breakdown work a key moment was Chris Henry's tackle and jackel move on 18 minutes. Wallace is right up in Jones' face 15m behind the gainline which shows how much little trouble their passing was giving Ulster. Jones steps him but goes immediately into contact with Henry. Mafi tries to clear but he's not low enough and they get into a wrestle, Henry starts to win. Tuohy considers joining but takes point in the defensive line. Ryan and O'Gara go in to help Mafi but not especially effectively. It's now 4 Munster players with just one Ulster player, 5 if you count Murray who's too slow while his window to get the ball away closes. Ferris senses trouble and piles in, kicking the ball out of the ruck. O'Connell dives on it first but is on his own on the ground for 4-5 seconds against Tuohy, Ferris and Wannenburg. The biased ref blows for a penalty eventually. Pienaar kicks a monster penalty 16-0 after 20 minutes

Jesus- do you go through the matches of opposition (evenb those we're not playing soon) frame by frame? Good analysis though.

[Dexter]

Hugh Farrelly of the Indo can I offer a massive, gargantuan f%~k YOU!!!!!!

+1

But don't forget that it was bad result for Team Ireland, due to all those greedy, mercenary, foreign lads in Ulster....

[ronk]

meinster:
In an Irish rugby context the Munster-Ulster game was always going to be far more important. Cardiff didn't show up, as Leinster fans we don't want to get ahead of ourselves and get complacent. Shouldn't read too much into it except that Leinster appear to be hitting form.

Ulster's result officially changes the balance somewhat between the provinces and we now need to consider the implications of this. A strong Ulster is the best possible thing that can happen for Ireland. A team drawn mostly of two provinces isn't ever going to be as strong. More competition for places from Northern players is a very important thing, both for depth and for first XV strength. I want a strong Munster too. I'm not anti Munster (I went to both games), I just don't like what Kidney is doing with the Irish team. A more conservative (selection) coach is more of a drawback when we have more depth.

They're good players and I'm glad to see development taking place in the Ireland team, but there are 3 players who've become squad regulars for Ireland in the last 12 months (Ryan, O'Mahony, Murray). All of them are Munster players who got in by getting a Munster jersey ahead of other Irish regulars and therefore automatically jumped players in other provinces who weren't given the same chances. The same thing was starting to happen with Zebo but he was still behind Earls. Given a(n extremely rare) chance to show what they could do without having to rely on Kidney's nod, the relevant Ulster players took their chance. Henry and Tuohy were some of Ulster's better performers. Gilroy raised questions about whether he should be getting a chance soon. Cave looked like someone who should be being developed for Ireland. Court looked a different player to the guy who got such criticism recently.

[artaneboy]

Great post Ronk!

Good one too, artaneboy above. I'm not sure if the anti-Munster / anyone but Munster is growing, or just less people are responding to the obvious WUMs. Certainly, there seems to be an unhealthy balance of posts about Munster, rather than Leinster. One of the teams are through to a semi after a cracking display of rugby in an almost full house at the Aviva, scoring one of the best tries I've seen in years. At least there's some decent analysis/opinion in a few of the Munster-related posts (like Ronk's and those being objective in discussing Munster's problems); a refreshing change from the oft-posted "screw Munster [regardless of what's going on in our own house]" brigade.

I'm not saying that you are claiming it- but (for the record) I am not anti-Munster! Some of their fans though.... well they don't make being balanced easy.

Look- it's in all our interests forthere tobe at least 3 (ideally 4) competing provinces in the Rabo and ERC. That means Munster needs to come back as a force-and they will.

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them- or one of the other two porvinces the nod in such circumstances too. But as I say- some of their chippy fan base make it hard to love the whole 'Nation of Munster' thing.

[ronk]

There was by the way some good work by Munster for Zebo's try. Decent pace sustained for the build up play and some good linkup work for the move to get it wide. Hurley went in and acted scrumhalf so there was quick ball and Donnacha Ryan was first receiver and did the crucial deep pass behind to set up the Munster secondary line and buy the space out wide.

When we look at breakdown work a key moment was Chris Henry's tackle and jackel move on 18 minutes. Wallace is right up in Jones' face 15m behind the gainline which shows how much little trouble their passing was giving Ulster. Jones steps him but goes immediately into contact with Henry. Mafi tries to clear but he's not low enough and they get into a wrestle, Henry starts to win. Tuohy considers joining but takes point in the defensive line. Ryan and O'Gara go in to help Mafi but not especially effectively. It's now 4 Munster players with just one Ulster player, 5 if you count Murray who's too slow while his window to get the ball away closes. Ferris senses trouble and piles in, kicking the ball out of the ruck. O'Connell dives on it first but is on his own on the ground for 4-5 seconds against Tuohy, Ferris and Wannenburg. The biased ref blows for a penalty eventually. Pienaar kicks a monster penalty 16-0 after 20 minutes

Jesus- do you go through the matches of opposition (evenb those we're not playing soon) frame by frame? Good analysis though.

When I was at the match it stood out for me and I had intended to watch it again. It was shown on the youtube highlights on the Munster thread page. It was just such a perfect example of the skills, smarts and commitment Ulster were playing at compared to Munster at that point in the game. Munster had 79% territory and over 70% possession (source: scrum.com). How did they lose? It wasn't even like Ulster were wracking up points off counterattacking from loose kicks or turnovers. Ulster scored a try from a lineout, they were just clinical and able to contain Munster.

[Oldschool]

There was by the way some good work by Munster for Zebo's try. Decent pace sustained for the build up play and some good linkup work for the move to get it wide. Hurley went in and acted scrumhalf so there was quick ball and Donnacha Ryan was first receiver and did the crucial deep pass behind to set up the Munster secondary line and buy the space out wide.

When we look at breakdown work a key moment was Chris Henry's tackle and jackel move on 18 minutes. Wallace is right up in Jones' face 15m behind the gainline which shows how much little trouble their passing was giving Ulster. Jones steps him but goes immediately into contact with Henry. Mafi tries to clear but he's not low enough and they get into a wrestle, Henry starts to win. Tuohy considers joining but takes point in the defensive line. Ryan and O'Gara go in to help Mafi but not especially effectively. It's now 4 Munster players with just one Ulster player, 5 if you count Murray who's too slow while his window to get the ball away closes. Ferris senses trouble and piles in, kicking the ball out of the ruck. O'Connell dives on it first but is on his own on the ground for 4-5 seconds against Tuohy, Ferris and Wannenburg. The biased ref blows for a penalty eventually. Pienaar kicks a monster penalty 16-0 after 20 minutes

Jesus- do you go through the matches of opposition (evenb those we're not playing soon) frame by frame? Good analysis though.

It is my suspicion that Ronk does a bit of coaching himself and what better way to learn than from actual match situations where properly coached players do what properly coached players should do in a variety of different situations.
Either that or he's an anorak and there's nothing wrong with that either.

[Munsterboy]

I think you're missing point lad.

If you're honest, POM/TOD wouldn't have got the game time he has this year if Wallace and Leamy were not injured.

Take Nagle for example, has only featured in 7 games in the Rabo this season (5 starts), meanwhile, Micko is clogging up the system contributing nothing particular special other than honest effort. Do we have to wait till he's 27 to make cement his place like DRyan? Meanwhile, Mark Flanagan for example has figured on 5 games this season and he's a year younger.

There's guys like Will Chambers and Save Tokula being brought in who are complete muck and they are blocking development of guys like Luke O'Dea or Ivan Dineen.

The (mis)management of the development of Keatley and Cusack has been nothing sort of lamentable. If Hagan coming back to Leinster was a bad move for his development, then the move to Munster has been nothing short of catastrophic for Keatley. 2 substitute appearances for the chap. Contrast with Madigan....

What are guys like Tom Gleeson, Denis Hurley, Niall Ronan bringing to the table....not a whole pile I'd say. They aren't good enough and frankly they aren't going to get a whole pile better. Like Gleeson is 27 this year....It's not gonna happen for him.

Put the young guys in there. Leinster have, Ulster have, Connacht are doing it. It's just not happening quick enough in Munster and it's because the management would rather take punts on the likes of Peter Borlase or Willy Chambers or whoever.



BTW, winning a game by 7 points after extra time is hardly ripping anyone a new one.....

Ok, I'll address the players you mention:

POM was selected on merit and has been mapped for a long time.

You are correct that TOD probably would not have been selected in the HEC but for Ronan's injury, which is fair given that Ronan was in better form (the best he's shown for Munster in fact and a bit of a revelation this year).

Nagle has had a few injuries and still lacks bulk. Our depth at lock is making it difficult for him and he's lost out a bit to Dave Foley but that's life. MOD is retiring.

Btw, can you honestly claim Flanagan would have gotten so many games if Leinster didn't have injuries? You didn't take long to sign a stop-gap and he's now back in the A team (and Toner's sitting on the bench behind a 37 year-old Kiwi).

Chambers and Tokula are 13s. O'Dea's an out-and-out winger and Dineen has been injured most of the season. The one young player to be potentially blocked by them was Barnes but he actually got loads of Pro12 games this season and a couple of HEC starts too.

Cusack is a very ordinary player and has not been worthy of much game time - have you honestly even seen him play?

Keatley has had as many Pro12 starts as Madigan this season (13) but has simply failed to deliver consistently (I really wish he had). He may regret his decision to come to Munster but he can't say he wasn't given opportunities. Madigan has grabbed his with both hands. That's the difference.

Tom Gleeson has lost his place in the pecking order to a younger, better player (the aforementioned Barnes). I doubt he'll get a new contract.

Denis Hurley has lost out to a younger player (Jones) but is a very decent HEC level 15 and worth his place in the squad.

Munster blooded Archer, POM, TOD, Murray, Barnes, Zebo and Jones in the HEC this season. 6 of the 7 started at least one HEC game and 5 started the QF. Sherry also got his first start in the HEC this season in a QF.

When you say "put the young guys in there", how many more would you suggest?

[Sauvignon Blank]

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them the nod in such circumstances too.

FFS

[artaneboy]

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them the nod in such circumstances too.

FFS

Well obviously I wasn't including you in that cohort. Reasonableness and YOU! Perish the thought.

[nelly the elephant]

Great post Ronk!

Good one too, artaneboy above. I'm not sure if the anti-Munster / anyone but Munster is growing, or just less people are responding to the obvious WUMs. Certainly, there seems to be an unhealthy balance of posts about Munster, rather than Leinster. One of the teams are through to a semi after a cracking display of rugby in an almost full house at the Aviva, scoring one of the best tries I've seen in years. At least there's some decent analysis/opinion in a few of the Munster-related posts (like Ronk's and those being objective in discussing Munster's problems); a refreshing change from the oft-posted "screw Munster [regardless of what's going on in our own house]" brigade.

I'm not saying that you are claiming it- but (for the record) I am not anti-Munster! Some of their fans though.... well they don't make being balanced easy.

Look- it's in all our interests forthere tobe at least 3 (ideally 4) competing provinces in the Rabo and ERC. That means Munster needs to come back as a force-and they will.

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them- or one of the other two porvinces the nod in such circumstances too. But as I say- some of their chippy fan base make it hard to love the whole 'Nation of Munster' thing.

Ah but Artaneboy......"For the brave and the faithful nothing is impossible!"

[suisse]

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them the nod in such circumstances too.

FFS

Well obviously I wasn't including you in that cohort. Reasonableness and YOU! Perish the thought.

I wouldn't secretly, or openly, support Munster, tbh. I fail to see how Munster winning or losing a HEC Q/F will have any impact on the development of the game in the province and country, nor will Munster losing to Ulster have any bearing on Team Ireland. I have a lot of respect for what they achieved, and I was jealous of their campaigns, even the losing ones, for so long, but I still wouldn't support them. I'd never support Leicester or Ospreys, over them, but then, I wouldn't support Munster in the same game.

Perhaps I am without reason too, but I feel this competition will be a much more enjoyable spectacle now they are gone. Just my thought!

[Sauvignon Blank]

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them the nod in such circumstances too.

FFS

Well obviously I wasn't including you in that cohort. Reasonableness and YOU! Perish the thought.

So, it's now unreasonable if you don't somehow support Munster and secretly we are all closet turnip fans?

Get a grip.

[Munsterboy]

Whisper it- but unless it compromises Leinster's chances- I do support Munster. I'm guessing that secretly most reasonable Leinster fans will give them the nod in such circumstances too.

FFS

Well obviously I wasn't including you in that cohort. Reasonableness and YOU! Perish the thought.

And most reasonable Munster fans support Leinster (and Ulster too) when they play other sides, although there are Leinster fans who make it difficult at times.

[Dave Cahill]

Thornley gives Farrelly a bit of a back in your box in the IT today

[artaneboy]

I wouldn't secretly, or openly, support Munster, tbh. I fail to see how Munster winning or losing a HEC Q/F will have any impact on the development of the game in the province and country, nor will Munster losing to Ulster have any bearing on Team Ireland. I have a lot of respect for what they achieved, and I was jealous of their campaigns, even the losing ones, for so long, but I still wouldn't support them. I'd never support Leicester or Ospreys, over them, but then, I wouldn't support Munster in the same game.

Perhaps I am without reason too, but I feel this competition will be a much more enjoyable spectacle now they are gone. Just my thought!

And it's a fair enough position; just not mine. I refuse to suscribe to this soccer mentality that we hate our neighbouring rivals, because they are your neighbours. That way madness lies! Just look at the Celtic fans in Glasgow glorying that Rangers are bust and hopefully gone- and not appreciating that the two clubs are build and sustainded by an manichean allianace, that only works as long as both of them continue to exist and flurish at some level. I don't want that rubbish to become the norm in our relationships with our neighbouring Irish provinces.

And I do think that strong Munster, Ulster and Connaught will have a major impact on the development of the Ireland team. Can't see how that cannot be.. Now I want Leinster to dominate the others, of course! But I realise that there will be waxing and waning of the provinces over the years too- and I'm prepared to accept that there will be times when we are in transition, etc. BTW, I was never jealous of Munster's success- just tired of the often phony shite that attended them; 'real people', 'working-class fan base', 'more genuine'; all that cr@p. But much of it was a media invention- and only the dim in even Munster really believed it. But there are enough decent Munster fans out there who recoignise the excesses of those times- and while I'll continue to celebrate every wim we have over them, I won't be joining any movements that claim that our neighbours fortunes are of no concern to us. Just my thoughts too!