Leinster v Cardiff

[ceemec]

*slaps Thornley*

Cave has 2 caps. Interesting comments on Hagan. Definitely seen as a long term project and they seem to have faith in him and are willing to invest the time and effort in his development.

[ronk]

Thorley is worth reading just for the comments by Feek.

[Degz]

Don't get all this crying about the Welsh. We're going to be without a load of internationals too. We were without a load of internationals last weekend. Munster fielded an entirely 2nd string side against Embra. Ulster left out Best and Ferris, etc. We're no better than anyone else when it comes to taking the league seriously.

Could not disagree more with you. Last season the top 3 ML teams in the regular season were Irish, and as we know two Irish teams made it into the Grand Final. In the prior season 2 of the top 4 teams in the regular season were Irish, while the Ospreys finished second they went on to beat us in the Grand Final. Going back to the 2008/09 season, Munster won it, Edinburgh were second and Leinster third. 2007/08 season Leinster won it, Cardiff second and Munster third. Even going back as far as the 2005/06 season the top three teams were all from Ireland, I could go on but I think you get my point. To say that the Irish teams don't take the league seriously is just plain wrong. Especially considering the success of them in the H Cup during this period. 4 wins, in 6 seasons.
Fair play to Munster for fielding a side with 13 changes to their H Cup team , with only one of Saturdays match day squad iNIQ and still they gained a 4 try bonus point win against Edinburgh.
As for the Wales v Australia game, like it or not, the International matches drive and fund the Provincial / club sides in all bar two countries, 50k plus will turn up for the game this weekend. If we want professional rugby in then 'fundraiser' Internationals will continue to be played. Think Philip Browne mentioned in a recent interview, that if 3 Irish Provinces got to the H Cup SF and two went on to contest the Final it would contribute less than 10% to IRFU coffers comparedto just one game in the 6N.

Sorry, but all of what you say only confirms, in my mind, the dreadful underperormance of team Ireland over the last decade. All (3!) of the provinces have serious strength in depth, and that is why we are able to continually rotate players in and out of the team and still win games against the other Celtic opposition. We play our frontliners in the interpros, as do the welsh. I don't see how we can be seen to take it more seriously.

[Mauler]

Sorry, but all of what you say only confirms, in my mind, the dreadful underperormance of team Ireland over the last decade. All (3!) of the provinces have serious strength in depth, and that is why we are able to continually rotate players in and out of the team and still win games against the other Celtic opposition. We play our frontliners in the interpros, as do the welsh. I don't see how we can be seen to take it more seriously.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in relation to Ireland's supposed lack of success in relation to the clubs wins in the H Cup & ML in the past decade or so.

In the past 11 seasons of The 6 Nations Championship since 2000/01 France have won 41 games in it, Ireland have won 39, England 35, Wales 25, Scotland 15 & Italy 7

With the exception of the 2007/08 season Ireland have not finished outside of the top 3 in these 11 years of the 6 Nations. Finishing 2nd six times & obviously winning it in '08/'09.

Wales on the other hand have won the 6 Nations twice in this period, however, those two wins were the only time that they have featured in the top 3. And they have infact finished fourth 5 times, fifth 3 times and actually last in the '02/'03 season.

Scotland are even worse, finishing last twice and fifth on 5 occasions, but have actually managed to come third twice (2000/01 & 2005/06).

France have clearly the best record - 5 wins and only once being outside the top 3 (2000/01)

From where Irish Rugby came from in the 1990s these results are a remarkable turn around. Not to mention Leinster getting 14k average crowds in the RDS, over 45k in the Aviva 4 times last season and Munster getting 25k for their H Cup and big ML/Pro12 games the IRFU have done a magnificent job in developing, growing and promoting Irish Rugby. The Pro12 is the third tier of the pyramid, but players such as Heislip, O'Brien, Fitzgerald, Earls, Healy all cut their teeth in the ML, and younger guys like O'Mahony, Spence, O'Malley, Madigan etal are all gaining great experience and they will be the fellas representing Ireland at the 2015 & 2019 RWC.

[bails]

Might there be a whiff of cordite on Friday night so !

[West Brit]

Sorry, but all of what you say only confirms, in my mind, the dreadful underperormance of team Ireland over the last decade. All (3!) of the provinces have serious strength in depth, and that is why we are able to continually rotate players in and out of the team and still win games against the other Celtic opposition. We play our frontliners in the interpros, as do the welsh. I don't see how we can be seen to take it more seriously.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in relation to Ireland's supposed lack of success in relation to the clubs wins in the H Cup & ML in the past decade or so.

Probably because during the period where Irish domestic teams were plundering everything in sight the national team has won bugger all. Coming second or third in the Six Nations doesn't really count as success in comparison.

[Edna Kenny]

The only team that has blocked Irish dominance over the last 10 years is France, we seem incabable of beating them for some reason.

[TerenureJim]

Sorry, but all of what you say only confirms, in my mind, the dreadful underperormance of team Ireland over the last decade. All (3!) of the provinces have serious strength in depth, and that is why we are able to continually rotate players in and out of the team and still win games against the other Celtic opposition. We play our frontliners in the interpros, as do the welsh. I don't see how we can be seen to take it more seriously.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in relation to Ireland's supposed lack of success in relation to the clubs wins in the H Cup & ML in the past decade or so.

Probably because during the period where Irish domestic teams were plundering everything in sight the national team has won bugger all. Coming second or third in the Six Nations doesn't really count as success in comparison.

I think given where we were starting from and going from the inital position of having to get the players back from English clubs and building from there it has been a success. We've gone to winning against SA and Aus in Dublin pretty regularly, bar '08 and the RWC warm up England haven't beaten us since they were unstoppable in winning the grand slam and RWC in '03, we've run NZ closer (in NZ) then we've ever run them and probably should have won down there twice and we can regularly expect to beat Scotland and Wales at will. To top this off we also topped a tough enough RWC group considering we beat Aus (one of the pre-season favourites for the tournament) and Italy very convincingly. Granted we went out to Wales but they had to play out of their skin and even then despite playing very poorly we could easily have snatched that game.

Trophies will come we've got one grand slam and were a TMO/bounce of a ball away in 2007. Trophies will come.

[Degz]

Sorry, but all of what you say only confirms, in my mind, the dreadful underperormance of team Ireland over the last decade. All (3!) of the provinces have serious strength in depth, and that is why we are able to continually rotate players in and out of the team and still win games against the other Celtic opposition. We play our frontliners in the interpros, as do the welsh. I don't see how we can be seen to take it more seriously.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in relation to Ireland's supposed lack of success in relation to the clubs wins in the H Cup & ML in the past decade or so.

In the past 11 seasons of The 6 Nations Championship since 2000/01 France have won 41 games in it, Ireland have won 39, England 35, Wales 25, Scotland 15 & Italy 7

With the exception of the 2007/08 season Ireland have not finished outside of the top 3 in these 11 years of the 6 Nations. Finishing 2nd six times & obviously winning it in '08/'09.

Wales on the other hand have won the 6 Nations twice in this period, however, those two wins were the only time that they have featured in the top 3. And they have infact finished fourth 5 times, fifth 3 times and actually last in the '02/'03 season.

Scotland are even worse, finishing last twice and fifth on 5 occasions, but have actually managed to come third twice (2000/01 & 2005/06).

France have clearly the best record - 5 wins and only once being outside the top 3 (2000/01)

From where Irish Rugby came from in the 1990s these results are a remarkable turn around. Not to mention Leinster getting 14k average crowds in the RDS, over 45k in the Aviva 4 times last season and Munster getting 25k for their H Cup and big ML/Pro12 games the IRFU have done a magnificent job in developing, growing and promoting Irish Rugby. The Pro12 is the third tier of the pyramid, but players such as Heislip, O'Brien, Fitzgerald, Earls, Healy all cut their teeth in the ML, and younger guys like O'Mahony, Spence, O'Malley, Madigan etal are all gaining great experience and they will be the fellas representing Ireland at the 2015 & 2019 RWC.

Not really all too clear in my original post sorry.

In essence, what I am saying is that the Irish teams are rotating their front-line players out of the provincial first-teams just as much as the Welsh are, and to therefore say that we take the league more seriously is flawed. We just happen to be lucky that the generation coming through over the last 6 or seven years has been better than the Welsh, Scottish, and nw obv the Italians. I don't think winning (or doing well in) the league, by default or luck, means that we take it more seriously.

Moving onto the International side, the whole point of resting our star players in the Celtic/Magners/Rabid league was to ensure optimum performance for the national team. Wales have won more, and gone further in the WC, than Ireland, despite our "golden generation" and a similar stance on league importance.

[Degz]

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from in relation to Ireland's supposed lack of success in relation to the clubs wins in the H Cup & ML in the past decade or so.

Probably because during the period where Irish domestic teams were plundering everything in sight the national team has won bugger all. Coming second or third in the Six Nations doesn't really count as success in comparison.

I think given where we were starting from and going from the inital position of having to get the players back from English clubs and building from there it has been a success. We've gone to winning against SA and Aus in Dublin pretty regularly, bar '08 and the RWC warm up England haven't beaten us since they were unstoppable in winning the grand slam and RWC in '03, we've run NZ closer (in NZ) then we've ever run them and probably should have won down there twice and we can regularly expect to beat Scotland and Wales at will. To top this off we also topped a tough enough RWC group considering we beat Aus (one of the pre-season favourites for the tournament) and Italy very convincingly. Granted we went out to Wales but they had to play out of their skin and even then despite playing very poorly we could easily have snatched that game.

Trophies will come we've got one grand slam and were a TMO/bounce of a ball away in 2007. Trophies will come.

I'm sorry to say, but I think you're sorely mistaken if you think 6 Nations or Grand Slams are going to be won more frequently in the immediate future. France are still clear of us (mainly a mental thing but we've had that problem for an age and nobody has been able to shift it), Wales are a coming force, and England can't be sh1t forever.

Gloomy? Yes. Realistic? I'm afraid so.

[Mauler]

Probably because during the period where Irish domestic teams were plundering everything in sight the national team has won bugger all. Coming second or third in the Six Nations doesn't really count as success in comparison.

I take your point WB. But, in the H Cup the French talent is spread over 14 teams (admittedly not all will play in the H Cup, but there are still lots of very talented players with Perpignan, Stade Francaise, Toulon etc who are not in this years H Cup). Likewise in the AP, there are 12 teams and the English team is spread amongst most of them.

At this years RWC, 9 of the English AP clubs had English players in the 30 man RWC squad. (Wilko, Haskell & Tom Palmer being with non English teams).

The Munster & Leinster H Cup teams rarely contains less than one or two non-Internationals, as Irish Qualified playing talent is condensed in just three teams. Where there are deficiencies - they buy in first class talent (providing the PAG sanctions it) - Think Elsom, Howlett, Hines, Isa, BJ, CJ (when fit), Ruan Pienaar etc etc

There was a recent thread on here hypothesising if the Leinster H Cup winning team would actually beat the Ireland RWC team. Whether or not it could, that is the reason why the Irish clubs have been so successful in the past decade.

[slum]

Probably because during the period where Irish domestic teams were plundering everything in sight the national team has won bugger all. Coming second or third in the Six Nations doesn't really count as success in comparison.

I take your point WB. But, in the H Cup the French talent is spread over 14 teams (admittedly not all will play in the H Cup, but there are still lots of very talented players with Perpignan, Stade Francaise, Toulon etc who are not in this years H Cup). Likewise in the AP, there are 12 teams and the English team is spread amongst most of them.

At this years RWC, 9 of the English AP clubs had English players in the 30 man RWC squad. (Wilko, Haskell & Tom Palmer being with non English teams).

The Munster & Leinster H Cup teams rarely contains less than one or two non-Internationals, as Irish Qualified playing talent is condensed in just three teams. Where there are deficiencies - they buy in first class talent (providing the PAG sanctions it) - Think Elsom, Howlett, Hines, Isa, BJ, CJ (when fit), Ruan Pienaar etc etc

There was a recent thread on here hypothesising if the Leinster H Cup winning team would actually beat the Ireland RWC team. Whether or not it could, that is the reason why the Irish clubs have been so successful in the past decade.

Ah come on the frenchies by and large get in top imports too. It's also a question of player numbers. France could probably field at least 2 different teams that would beat an Irish team on their day. The problem with the english club game is probably the self inflicted salary caps.

[fourthirtythree]

The problem with the english club game is probably the self inflicted salary caps.

No it's not. No more than it's the problem with the English national team. Their problem is the brand of conservative rugby they play which no amount of Sky Sports money or hype is going to make world beating.

They suffer from the spread of players that France does at the club level (compared to us) but with the added handicap of outdated tactics. To that the English national team adds mismanagement. Unfortunately they will sort that out sooner or later.

[Mauler]

Moving onto the International side, the whole point of resting our star players in the Celtic/Magners/Rabid league was to ensure optimum performance for the national team. Wales have won more, and gone further in the WC, than Ireland, despite our "golden generation" and a similar stance on league importance.

The Welsh performance against Ireland in the RWC was excellent, and they seemed to get their tactics right on the day. However, there were plenty of opportunities for us to have won that game and with the amount of possession we had should have put up more of a challenge.

But, that was the pinnacle of the Welsh efforts in the RWC, while they did get to the Semi Finals, they were beaten by South Africa, France & Australia and made very heavy weather of beating Samoa (17 v 10). Being down 9 v 10 with 20 to go and being fortunate with Priestlands pen which hit the cross bar and bounced over. The only Tier 1 country that Wales beat on the way to the RWC Semi Final was Ireland.

But yes I do take your point that they were better than us on the day. And the history books will say that they got to the last 4.

[slum]

The problem with the english club game is probably the self inflicted salary caps.

No it's not. No more than it's the problem with the English national team. Their problem is the brand of conservative rugby they play which no amount of Sky Sports money or hype is going to make world beating.

They suffer from the spread of players that France does at the club level (compared to us) but with the added handicap of outdated tactics. To that the English national team adds mismanagement. Unfortunately they will sort that out sooner or later.

i watched a bit of premiership rugby over the last few days. their competency at the "conservative game" is actually very poor. things like accuracy at the breakdown are beyond awful.

[ronk]

*slaps Thornley*

Cave has 2 caps. Interesting comments on Hagan. Definitely seen as a long term project and they seem to have faith in him and are willing to invest the time and effort in his development.

He's a 24 year old Irish qualified tighthead with 59 senior appearances. There's no one else in Ireland who looks to have half as much potential in that position at the moment. Ross has saved our bacon in terms of not having to rely on Hayes, because we'd be totally snookered.

Ross is almost 32, so it's an almost 8 year gap in the depth chart. In a key position.

[jezzer]

Court is worrying me too recently, as our sub prop. For Ireland on the LH side and at ulster since Botha left, he looks too tall and a bit lacking in technique to be a top level LH. He was always going to be a stopgap sub on the TH side, but he's regressed in the scrum in the last year, if you ask me, even on his favoured LH side.

[Danthefan]

Don't get all this crying about the Welsh. We're going to be without a load of internationals too. We were without a load of internationals last weekend. Munster fielded an entirely 2nd string side against Embra. Ulster left out Best and Ferris, etc. We're no better than anyone else when it comes to taking the league seriously.

Could not disagree more with you. Last season the top 3 ML teams in the regular season were Irish, and as we know two Irish teams made it into the Grand Final. In the prior season 2 of the top 4 teams in the regular season were Irish, while the Ospreys finished second they went on to beat us in the Grand Final. Going back to the 2008/09 season, Munster won it, Edinburgh were second and Leinster third. 2007/08 season Leinster won it, Cardiff second and Munster third. Even going back as far as the 2005/06 season the top three teams were all from Ireland, I could go on but I think you get my point. To say that the Irish teams don't take the league seriously is just plain wrong. Especially considering the success of them in the H Cup during this period. 4 wins, in 6 seasons.
Fair play to Munster for fielding a side with 13 changes to their H Cup team , with only one of Saturdays match day squad iNIQ and still they gained a 4 try bonus point win against Edinburgh.
As for the Wales v Australia game, like it or not, the International matches drive and fund the Provincial / club sides in all bar two countries, 50k plus will turn up for the game this weekend. If we want professional rugby in then 'fundraiser' Internationals will continue to be played. Think Philip Browne mentioned in a recent interview, that if 3 Irish Provinces got to the H Cup SF and two went on to contest the Final it would contribute less than 10% to IRFU coffers comparedto just one game in the 6N.

That all points to the fact Munster and Leinster in particular are better than the Welsh sides. We have bigger and higher quality squads. There's not much doubt over that. This weekend Cardiff internationals have been withdrawn to play for Wales. Leinster internationals will be withdrawn for nothing at all, other than to rest. Which is worse?

[bails]

So with all this negativity about would it be fair to say that the Ireland team may be "Hors de combat" in the future, as Gerry would say !

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Court is worrying me too recently, as our sub prop. For Ireland on the LH side and at ulster since Botha left, he looks too tall and a bit lacking in technique to be a top level LH. He was always going to be a stopgap sub on the TH side, but he's regressed in the scrum in the last year, if you ask me, even on his favoured LH side.

Me too. Apparently he was sick towards the end of last season which may explain why he was poor then but I'm assuming he's better now yet is still playing pretty badly. Think he played well against Clermont but aside from that he's been brutal from what I've seen.