IRFU Jeopardise the future of schools rugby !!

[kicktee]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Schools game is been very badly controlled by the IRFU ?

As a fan\coach, I have become very disillusioned with how the schools game is been managed by the IRFU
& through them the branches.

An accumulation of many small factors have now brought matters to a position that I believe people need to
speak out and say enough. I firmly believe that the interests of the schools game and, in particular, the players
as individuals are not been ‘managed’ properly by the IRFU.

I am sure you are aware of the growing disquiet amongst the schools that they are been marginalised. Many
of the people making the decisions seem to have no experience or knowledge of the long history that schools
rugby plays within Irish Rugby. From what I have heard, meetings are held with employees of the IRFU
(often with overseas accents) who take no cognisance, have no knowledge and express no interest in the
role that schools have played in the development of the game in Ireland. One would also question whether
the long term development of the school player as a student \individual, as he moves towards adulthood,
is being properly prioritised in the overall scheme.

At the same time, a number of people who have given a lifetime of service to the schools game at a
provincial & national level seem to have been marginalised as full time employees of the IRFU take
control and in fact dictate what is occurring.

I firmly believe a debate on what is occurring within the schools game and the dictatorial role from
the IRFU needs to be started.

As somebody said to me recently, if things continue in this vein, the only Schools cup match we will be
watching re Clongowes\'ROCK\Belvo\’Nure ..... etc will be Gaelic Football in Parnell Park … half in jest,
whole in earnest ?

[groundhog]

One could argue the schools have held Irish rugby back,I mean how many abject years of failure was there before the Grand Slam in 2009? Undecided myself...

[Darce]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Schools game is been very badly controlled by the IRFU ?

As a fan\coach, I have become very disillusioned with how the schools game is been managed by the IRFU
& through them the branches.

An accumulation of many small factors have now brought matters to a position that I believe people need to
speak out and say enough. I firmly believe that the interests of the schools game and, in particular, the players
as individuals are not been ‘managed’ properly by the IRFU.

I am sure you are aware of the growing disquiet amongst the schools that they are been marginalised. Many
of the people making the decisions seem to have no experience or knowledge of the long history that schools
rugby plays within Irish Rugby. From what I have heard, meetings are held with employees of the IRFU
(often with overseas accents) who take no cognisance, have no knowledge and express no interest in the
role that schools have played in the development of the game in Ireland. One would also question whether
the long term development of the school player as a student \individual, as he moves towards adulthood,
is being properly prioritised in the overall scheme.

At the same time, a number of people who have given a lifetime of service to the schools game at a
provincial & national level seem to have been marginalised as full time employees of the IRFU take
control and in fact dictate what is occurring.

I firmly believe a debate on what is occurring within the schools game and the dictatorial role from
the IRFU needs to be started.

As somebody said to me recently, if things continue in this vein, the only Schools cup match we will be
watching re Clongowes\'ROCK\Belvo\’Nure ..... etc will be Gaelic Football in Parnell Park … half in jest,
whole in earnest ?

Is that you, Wardy?

[Logorrhea]

Apart from pushing school administrators to the back ground exactly what is the problem? You havent mentioned one negative impact of the changes so its hard to get pissed off about it.

[Armchair]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Schools game is been very badly controlled by the IRFU ?

You seem to be

[Darce]

I think he means that the people who have given so much to schools rugby are being marginalised in the decision making process, by people who have no tradition or understanding of the vagaries of the inner workings of schools rugby.

[Theboss]

I think maybe the IRFU are aware of the many years of Social Class divisions within Rugby and in particular the big Schools. By focusing on the Clubs and underage rugby, they are including the wider community who could not all access the private Schools.

[kicktee]

Just a few points….

Having 16 year olds turning up at 08.00 on a Monday morning during the summer holidays
for weight training & putting them under pressure to ensure they will be
there ??? …. At that stage, the game is already becoming too demanding for them.
Is the thinking behind this purely about the potential of the ‘one’ player that could
make it through to the professional game … never mind the wastage & fall-out
factor with the others.

Turning around to an under-age international player in the middle of an
(international) training session and a ‘professional’ coach telling him to
tog in he is not needed any longer !!!! …. Is this the way to handle
a top class young player ?

Dictating to the schools when some of their players can train & play with the
school. This starting from a younger & younger age. There are many issues
around this not by any means all rugby related.

Insisting the competitive nature of the game be removed without any
consultation with the schools from their many years experience !!!.

Games from Under 11 down, now to be played with 10 players not
with 11, as has been the way for many many years …. No consultation,
nor taking into account the views within the schools.

Under 12 teams now to play with 13 players not 15 as in the past and
threatening to bring this further …. Up to Under 15 level (yes, JCT !!!)
No discussions nor consultation …..

Wanting to change the age structures without taking into account
the huge logistical problems this causes within the schools.

I could go on and on…. While the development of the game in a wider
context through clubs, development officers etc etc needs to be
applauded …. The issue is the genuine concern within the schools game,
on a number of levels, not purely rugby, of the dictatorial changes been made.
The IRFU have lost and continue to loose a considerable amount of
support within the schools, that will inevitably have repercussions
for them.

[combatlogo]

The schools lobby in this country is a joke, the sooner it loses its power, the better. A 6 million quid white elephant in Donnybrook is but one example.

[lummix]

Donnybrook was redeveloped for leinster not for schools rugby, Just so happens Leinster outgrew it in the mean time.

Schools rugby is a vital part of developin players, its not perfect but remember for every shane Horgan or trevor Brennan produced by the clubs the schools game will produce ten players of equal/better ability.

People are too quick to sh!t on the schools game in my opinion.

[Darce]

Schools rugby is a vital part of developin players, its not perfect but remember for every shane Horgan or trevor Brennan produced by the clubs the schools game will produce ten players of equal/better ability.

Pretty spot on

[Logorrhea]

People are too quick to sh!t on the schools game in my opinion.

Sorry I'm probably being slow here but who is shitting on the schools game?

From what I've read a couple of blazers are being pushed out by another couple of blazers? Where exactly does that mean shitting on the schools game? Am I reading it wrong or is this a case of 2+2=497.3?

[the spoofer]

Schools rugby is a vital part of developin players, its not perfect but remember for every shane Horgan or trevor Brennan produced by the clubs the schools game will produce ten players of equal/better ability.

Pretty spot on

Not so sure that its as cut and dried as that anymore.

I'm on both sides of the fence, ex schools rugby but heavily involved in club youths. Previously club players saw no future for them in working their butts off but the pyramid structure through to Irish youths, Leinster Youths and regional develoment squads is producing far better players.I see kids in our club who do a lot of their own practice to try and reach these squads. These kids are getting specialist coaching that they never got before.

Schools players have a huge advantage in trainging 5/6 a week but clubs are producing better and better players.On top of that they are not been "hot housed" like the schools players and will probably continue to enjoy the game past the age of 18.

[combatlogo]

Donnybrook was redeveloped for leinster not for schools rugby, Just so happens Leinster outgrew it in the mean time.

Schools rugby is a vital part of developin players, its not perfect but remember for every shane Horgan or trevor Brennan produced by the clubs the schools game will produce ten players of equal/better ability.

People are too quick to sh!t on the schools game in my opinion.

We'd already moved to the RDS, it was built for schoolboys and is 6 million notes I'd much rather have seen spent on RDO's, developing the game in new areas etc etc. There's hardly been a level playing field between clubs and schools in the past for your compariosn to be valid.

[hugonaut]

Donnybrook was redeveloped for leinster not for schools rugby, Just so happens Leinster outgrew it in the mean time.

Schools rugby is a vital part of developin players, its not perfect but remember for every shane Horgan or trevor Brennan produced by the clubs the schools game will produce ten players of equal/better ability.

People are too quick to sh!t on the schools game in my opinion.

We'd already moved to the RDS, it was built for schoolboys and is 6 million notes I'd much rather have seen spent on RDO's, developing the game in new areas etc etc. There's hardly been a level playing field between clubs and schools in the past for your compariosn to be valid.

Donnybrook was held up in pre-planning and planning for years, mainly dues to observations from the neighbours, and especially the tennis club. There was also supposed to be an apartment complex on the site to defray the costs, which would have made sense any time up to 2006-07. I agree that it's not particularly been money well spent, though, although it does get used.

As for the schools and youths argument, maybe it hasn't been a level playing field, but his comparison is still very valid because it's based on facts. I'd share his opinion as well: people are far too quick to sh¡t on schools rugby.

[Durkah Durkah]

I've often wondered how good could we be at provincial and international levels if the schools coached for the benefit of the player and not the school. I argue that it is the schools who have let down the IRFU. The IRFU have an LTPD in place for all ages and I am yet to come across a school that adheres to it as it does not suit the school. I believe the term is holistic development of the student....unless it gets in the way of winning the Senior Cup

[silly punt]

I've often wondered how good could we be at provincial and international levels if the schools coached for the benefit of the player and not the school. I argue that it is the schools who have let down the IRFU. The IRFU have an LTPD in place for all ages and I am yet to come across a school that adheres to it as it does not suit the school. I believe the term is holistic development of the student....unless it gets in the way of winning the Senior Cup

+1

The schools interest begins and ends at the school gate, they are not interested in developing players for the long-term future of Irish rugby they are interested in winning the schools cup (I am referiing section b/c schools). It could easily be argued that the lack of Irish props can be laid directly at the feet of the schools. Since the scrummage laws were changed to allow restricted pushing, the type of player the schools are using is totally different. Cian Healy would be the exact model that is required by the schools, strong, fast and mobile. Prior to that it was in the schools interest to develop big strong scrummaging props, in fact the current President of the IRFU Caleb Powell had great success in Kings hospital producing both Angus McKean and Emmet Byrne in very quick succession.

As somebody who was educated in the schools system and is now involved in the provincial club game, I believe that Irish rugby survives despite the schools system not because of it.....

[lebowski]

The schools interest begins and ends at the school gate, they are not interested in developing players for the long-term future of Irish rugby they are interested in winning the schools cup (I am referiing section b/c schools). It could easily be argued that the lack of Irish props can be laid directly at the feet of the schools. Since the scrummage laws were changed to allow restricted pushing, the type of player the schools are using is totally different. Cian Healy would be the exact model that is required by the schools, strong, fast and mobile. Prior to that it was in the schools interest to develop big strong scrummaging props, in fact the current President of the IRFU Caleb Powell had great success in Kings hospital producing both Angus McKean and Emmet Byrne in very quick succession.

As somebody who was educated in the schools system and is now involved in the provincial club game, I believe that Irish rugby survives despite the schools system not because of it.....

Irish rugby survives because of the schools and club set up. We have the smallest player base of the top 10 countries yet produce European champions and Grand Slam Winners. The top two tiers of the game (professional and AIL)are very much dependent on the schools system with the vast majority of these players learning and developing their skills in schools. The Under 19s games in Donnybrook show the gulf between schools and clubs. Both were amalgamated and 90% of both squads came from the schools system. This is because of the importance that schools put on cup rugby, whether we like it or not.

The majority of Leinster Section B schools (there is no such thing as section c as has been pointed out by other posters in the past) cannot have any ambition of winning Senior Cups and the coaches in these schools are very much interested in the holistic and long term development of these students. All you need to do is check out the websites of say Kings Hos or Wesley College or St Gerards and the latest Leinster representative will most likely take pride of place.

I coach in a local Section B school as well as at the local AIL club and I can tell you that all the vast majority of the Junior players in the club came from one school in particular. The school makes the effort to send the players out to us and not the other way around and we have no real link with that school. It is very easy to knock the schools game but they keep many cubs alive with the players they produce.

I also believe that the Leinster Branch is beginning to take the work of the schools and clubs for granted. I went into Donnybrook on Saturday to watch the youths and Under 19s play Ulster. They charged me €10 in. This despite the fact that I had coached 5 players in total in the three teams. I brought them to be screened by Leinster on three different occasions and gave a hand out with the screening twice. I was told by the guy on the gate that he didn't give a sh*t who I coached, I wasn't on "the list" As I argued with them, three teachers from a well known south Dublin school walked in with a welcome from the same guy. Apparently, they were on the list!! I got talking to them inside with a teacher from Newbridge and Pres Bray (who were also charged in). They said (tongue in cheek I hope) that they wouldn't dare charge in teachers from any of the "Big Schools".

[Durkah Durkah]

Why didn't you just show your LB Schools card that is sent out to all schools? That's what got me in. And school websites are advertising boards for schools, trophies are shown more than individuals e.g. Just to take the schools you've mentioned: Gerards league win is more prominent than their representative players, same with KHs senior cricket win, same with wesley umpteen hockey wins. Since you work at an AIL club tell me the major difference between the players that went through the schools system and those who went through the club system? My opinion is that IN GENERAL club players have a greater ability to learn and question what they are trying to do, schools players have been told what to do from an early age and believe they have finished learning about the game. It is not their fault but they have just been told what to do for the good of their team as opposed to putting them in decision making scenarios to allow them to figure out the options in different situations.
The bigger problem is that all schools coaches have their hands tied. There are competitions from U13 on. If you follow the LTPD the benefits won't bear fruit until it is too late for the school and your teams have received beatings along the way and that's not good for kids either. The only way it would change would be for all schools comps to be binned until senior level, no chance of that happening.

[ronk]

It could easily be argued that the lack of Irish props can be laid directly at the feet of the schools. Since the scrummage laws were changed to allow restricted pushing, the type of player the schools are using is totally different. Cian Healy would be the exact model that is required by the schools, strong, fast and mobile. Prior to that it was in the schools interest to develop big strong scrummaging props, in fact the current President of the IRFU Caleb Powell had great success in Kings hospital producing both Angus McKean and Emmet Byrne in very quick succession.

That fact could be used to support the exact opposite argument. The foible in the school system shows just how much it is relied on for every other position. Perhaps changing the schools situation subtly would be the best solution.

Schools can draw on resources that clubs can only dream of. Clubs have other advantages, we don't have the player pool to ignore either. Both systems are capable of improvement. For my own part, I seriously doubt that I would ever have played rugby if I hadn't been encouraged to start training with my school team.

Schools do have an interest in alumni though. Rugby can be a very significant bond between alumni and the school, so there is a motive for schools to want their players to stick with the game. Maybe some don't do so well on that front though.