Schools Rugby 2009-10 - SCT

[lebowski]

Unbelievable precedent set by the Leinster branch. The red card stands but no punishment was given because of a lack of clear video evidence (allegedly). The touch judge, appointed by the branch is ignored (allegedly).

I have never played in front of the tv cameras like 99.9% of rugby players in Leinster so we can all now appeal sendings off on this basis and they will be in a position where the appeals may have to be accepted. Any appeal would be won in court on this basis.

[backrower8]

Declaration: I will be supporting Michael's with my every fibre on the 17th.

My point: I find the sort of carping on this topic symptomatic and reflective of a sad fall in basic decency around schools rugby from supporters to players. Red cards, yellow cards, ambulances, supporters being frisked for booze going into games, stewards who have to stand and monitor 'supporrters' for a whole match with their backs to the pitch (a la pro soccer), increased Garda presence, team captains badgering referees, barristers at disciplinary hearings, gutteral name-calling on on-line discussion boards, soccer chants taunting other fans and worse still young guys on the field of play......blah, blah, blah

I am a rugby nut. Its my passion, pastime for over 30 years. Ireland's Grand Slam win was one of the 10 happiest days in my life - behind the birth of my kids but not too far behind! I marvel at the talent on show from JCTand SCT players nowadays BUT.....

The Leinster Schools Rugby scene is too serious....has been for decades but what I see now is the sport boiling over....too many coaches living vicariously through their charges.....thug-like behaviour on the sidelines......increased professional fouls on the pitch.....barristers getting invloved in disciplinary procedings...special training trips....ALL LEADING TO early player burn-out, a lack of sportsmanship, anti-social behaviour....too many schools consumed by 1 sport with the non-rugby people in the school reduced to 2nd class citizens.

We need to give the cups our all sure but with some balance and mutual respect please. Rugby has a special ethos that involves respect for everyone in the sport. We can get back to that but it calls for leadership at all decision making levels.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Declaration: I will be supporting Michael's with my every fibre on the 17th.

My point: I find the sort of carping on this topic symptomatic and reflective of a sad fall in basic decency around schools rugby from supporters to players. Red cards, yellow cards, ambulances, supporters being frisked for booze going into games, stewards who have to stand and monitor 'supporrters' for a whole match with their backs to the pitch (a la pro soccer), increased Garda presence, team captains badgering referees, barristers at disciplinary hearings, gutteral name-calling on on-line discussion boards, soccer chants taunting other fans and worse still young guys on the field of play......blah, blah, blah

I am a rugby nut. Its my passion, pastime for over 30 years. Ireland's Grand Slam win was one of the 10 happiest days in my life - behind the birth of my kids but not too far behind! I marvel at the talent on show from JCTand SCT players nowadays BUT.....

The Leinster Schools Rugby scene is too serious....has been for decades but what I see now is the sport boiling over....too many coaches living vicariously through their charges.....thug-like behaviour on the sidelines......increased professional fouls on the pitch.....barristers getting invloved in disciplinary procedings...special training trips....ALL LEADING TO early player burn-out, a lack of sportsmanship, anti-social behaviour....too many schools consumed by 1 sport with the non-rugby people in the school reduced to 2nd class citizens.

We need to give the cups our all sure but with some balance and mutual respect please. Rugby has a special ethos that involves respect for everyone in the sport. We can get back to that but it calls for leadership at all decision making levels.

Excellent post

[lebowski]

To be fair to Clongowes, they have suspended one of their Junior players for the incident in their Junior Cup game (according to the Junior Cup thread). He wasn't sent off in the game and their was no tv cameras so they were under no obligation to take action. Their JCT coach obviously took the morally courageous decision to leave him out and must be applauded.

They must have been clear that the no. 8 did not gouge. However there were other incidents of foul play during the game and I hope, but I doubt that their Senior coaches show the courage that their Junior coaches did and leave him on the bench at best.

The whole incident calls into question the roll of tv at these games. If the game went untelevised, they would not have been able to appeal on the basis of a lack of tv evidence if this is what they did. Last weeks negative press for both the Senior and Junior Cup on the field just gives those who knock the competitions more ammunition to hammer it to go with all the negative press that has gone with the off-field behavior of some of the participants in previous years. Schools rugby may be beyond the crossroads. Winning at all costs seem to be the mantra. The Leinster Branch need to sit down with the schools rugby stakeholders as soon as possible to find a way to take the pressure and heat out of the competitions. Otherwise these weeks will be the norm and not the exception in future years.

My solution would be to 1. ban the tv cameras
2. Have a zero tolerance attitude towards poor crowd control (bans from Donnybrook etc) and poor player behaviour,
3. have a maximum number of weekly training sessions so that rugby is not these young boys only focus

[downtime]

There were more than Setanta cameras at the game - each school also videoed the game. Removing tv coverage would be detrimental to the competition as a lot of revenue would be lost.

[Royshman123]

Declaration: I will be supporting Michael's with my every fibre on the 17th.

My point: I find the sort of carping on this topic symptomatic and reflective of a sad fall in basic decency around schools rugby from supporters to players. Red cards, yellow cards, ambulances, supporters being frisked for booze going into games, stewards who have to stand and monitor 'supporrters' for a whole match with their backs to the pitch (a la pro soccer), increased Garda presence, team captains badgering referees, barristers at disciplinary hearings, gutteral name-calling on on-line discussion boards, soccer chants taunting other fans and worse still young guys on the field of play......blah, blah, blah

I am a rugby nut. Its my passion, pastime for over 30 years. Ireland's Grand Slam win was one of the 10 happiest days in my life - behind the birth of my kids but not too far behind! I marvel at the talent on show from JCTand SCT players nowadays BUT.....

The Leinster Schools Rugby scene is too serious....has been for decades but what I see now is the sport boiling over....too many coaches living vicariously through their charges.....thug-like behaviour on the sidelines......increased professional fouls on the pitch.....barristers getting invloved in disciplinary procedings...special training trips....ALL LEADING TO early player burn-out, a lack of sportsmanship, anti-social behaviour....too many schools consumed by 1 sport with the non-rugby people in the school reduced to 2nd class citizens.

We need to give the cups our all sure but with some balance and mutual respect please. Rugby has a special ethos that involves respect for everyone in the sport. We can get back to that but it calls for leadership at all decision making levels.

I agree - well said!

[Slipper1]

Declaration: I will be supporting Michael's with my every fibre on the 17th.

My point: I find the sort of carping on this topic symptomatic and reflective of a sad fall in basic decency around schools rugby from supporters to players. Red cards, yellow cards, ambulances, supporters being frisked for booze going into games, stewards who have to stand and monitor 'supporrters' for a whole match with their backs to the pitch (a la pro soccer), increased Garda presence, team captains badgering referees, barristers at disciplinary hearings, gutteral name-calling on on-line discussion boards, soccer chants taunting other fans and worse still young guys on the field of play......blah, blah, blah

I am a rugby nut. Its my passion, pastime for over 30 years. Ireland's Grand Slam win was one of the 10 happiest days in my life - behind the birth of my kids but not too far behind! I marvel at the talent on show from JCTand SCT players nowadays BUT.....

The Leinster Schools Rugby scene is too serious....has been for decades but what I see now is the sport boiling over....too many coaches living vicariously through their charges.....thug-like behaviour on the sidelines......increased professional fouls on the pitch.....barristers getting invloved in disciplinary procedings...special training trips....ALL LEADING TO early player burn-out, a lack of sportsmanship, anti-social behaviour....too many schools consumed by 1 sport with the non-rugby people in the school reduced to 2nd class citizens.

We need to give the cups our all sure but with some balance and mutual respect please. Rugby has a special ethos that involves respect for everyone in the sport. We can get back to that but it calls for leadership at all decision making levels.

I'd agree with that - except for the "I'll be supporting Michaels with my every fibre" bit of course.

[backrower8]

I am hearing unofficial reports that the Association of Referees of the Leinster Branch have withdrawn their services from next week's SCT final based on the decision to allow the Clongowes number 8 to play in the game.

IMPORTANT: IF THIS IS TRUE THEN WHATEVER THE OUTCOME THIS MUST NOT RESULT IN MUCK RAKING OR NAME CALLING DIRECTED AT THE PLAYER OR PLAYERS. THIS IS ABOUT THE PROCESS OF HOW SCHOOLS /AMATEUR RUGBY DISCIPLINARY HEARINGS ARE CONDUCTED AND AJUDICATED.

If the decision to allow the player play in the final is allowed to stand then so be it. I have no beef with that and he should be allowed to get on with it along with his team mates and also to St Michael's whom I am sure would prefer if this issue was not hanging over the final at all.

The issue I am concerned about is the role allegedly (theres that word creeping in) played by legal professionals (in this case a barrister who is father to another member of the CWC team) in the disciplinary hearing and the potential influence that had on the decision made.

I am against legal professionals having any role in this amateur (just) category of rugby union football.

The only people who should decide if a player should play any match are his school and, where a disciplinary issue has to be addressed, the disciplinary committee of the Leinster Branch whose officials would be acting in a voluntary and amateur capacity with input from voluntary and amateur Referees and Assistant Referees.

Lets get this issue cleared up for once and for all as soon as possible so that both schools and all 30 players, whomever they are, can prepare for and play the final in the very best traditions of the competition and the sport - without fear of legal processes entering the equation at any point beween now and the (presumably uncontested) awarding of the trophy and title to the team who scores the most points on the 17th of March.

Yours in Rugby.

[backrower8]

Michael's SCT have now have reached their 3rd final in 5 years - with 1 from 2 so far.

Also we have 4 JCT finals in 4 years......but no trophy in the last 3....gulp.

If we were paying golf we would be seeded 1.....but we are not!!

[stmc]

Michaels want him to play. They can beat them and want no excuses. Whole thing is going on way too long I know him from on and off the field. Off he is a nice guy but on he is tough and does tend to be dirty (stamping,sly punches etc..). It makes no difference to anything Michaels will still prepare the same way.

[hittheruck]

rumour has it there's a SPECIAL GENERAL MEETING of LEINSTER REFS this week, and guess what's on the agenda ???

[jimmyholly]

Jungle drums say they might be 'withdrawing support' for the final...or at least threatening it.

[combatlogo]

rumour has it there's a SPECIAL GENERAL MEETING of LEINSTER REFS this week, and guess what's on the agenda ???

The meeting was called on 2nd March before the hearing. I've got a copy of the agenda in front of me with no reference to this case, you clearly got an updated version.

[Darce]

rumour has it there's a SPECIAL GENERAL MEETING of LEINSTER REFS this week, and guess what's on the agenda ???

The meeting was called on 2nd March before the hearing. I've got a copy of the agenda in front of me with no reference to this case, you clearly got an updated version.

In fairness, I'd say it might come up in the AOB section....

[Armchair]

The bottom line is that the branch were spineless and allowed themselves to be intimidated, they should have backed up their offical on the night. By their non action they have caused a huge mess. A red card should be an automatic ban of 3 games with the onous on the player to prove he didn't do it AKA Shane Jennings/Nick Kennedy. If you don't back up your officals you have no chance and I could safely say every 50/50 decision will go against Clongowes for the next season or two

[Durkah Durkah]

An S.G.M. has been called for tonight with two things on the agenda.
1. A vote of changes to the referee constitution.
2. Discussion on the fall out from the Clongowes v St. Marys match.

I would expect them not to remove their support from the final as that is unfair on both sets of players. I include CWC players in this as they are still school children (admittedly ones that can grow beards!!) and they will follow the lead of their coaches, school and parents actions.

It would not surprise me if there is some form of action made by the schools committee to introduce an automatic suspension for one or two games for receiving a red card. Also that video evidence can not be used in the future as it is not available for all games and that the officials decisions are final, so any incident that is reported by the officials that they deem is more serious then just a red card goes before the disciplinary committee. The evidence accepted should be (i) player accused's report (ii) alleged victims report, (iii) referees report, (iv) touch judge (if ARLB appointed) report. Medical evidence should be accepted too if supplied by a neutral party.

Whatever happens the refs are going to want something that doesn't make a mockery of their presence or decisions on a pitch. I don't think the disciplinary panel thought very thoroughly about their decision and were just anxious not to suffer in the same way as The I.T.

[madbarry]

The bottom line is that the branch were spineless and allowed themselves to be intimidated, they should have backed up their offical on the night. By their non action they have caused a huge mess. A red card should be an automatic ban of 3 games with the onous on the player to prove he didn't do it AKA Shane Jennings/Nick Kennedy. If you don't back up your officals you have no chance and I could safely say every 50/50 decision will go against Clongowes for the next season or two

I agree, this decision has set a nasty precidence as now everyone will feel if they are sent off for any offence they can get away with it. Also the branch have let down referees, it is hard to get good refs and now by this action it might be even harder. There are only about 150ish referees in Leinster. I don't think it would be fair on the Micheals boys if there was no ref but the refs need to stand up for themselves as well. I love rugby and go reglarly to matches but this is crazy. If the refs do pull out i'd imagine no other ref from other provinces will do it either.Whats the odds on Paddypower for no Final????

[ronk]

An S.G.M. has been called for tonight with two things on the agenda.
1. A vote of changes to the referee constitution.
2. Discussion on the fall out from the Clongowes v St. Marys match.

I would expect them not to remove their support from the final as that is unfair on both sets of players. I include CWC players in this as they are still school children (admittedly ones that can grow beards!!) and they will follow the lead of their coaches, school and parents actions.

It would not surprise me if there is some form of action made by the schools committee to introduce an automatic suspension for one or two games for receiving a red card. Also that video evidence can not be used in the future as it is not available for all games and that the officials decisions are final, so any incident that is reported by the officials that they deem is more serious then just a red card goes before the disciplinary committee. The evidence accepted should be (i) player accused's report (ii) alleged victims report, (iii) referees report, (iv) touch judge (if ARLB appointed) report. Medical evidence should be accepted too if supplied by a neutral party.

Whatever happens the refs are going to want something that doesn't make a mockery of their presence or decisions on a pitch. I don't think the disciplinary panel thought very thoroughly about their decision and were just anxious not to suffer in the same way as The I.T.

I think that would be a terrible decision. In this case video evidence has played a role in exonerating a player and apparently not been in the interests of justice, but who's to say that it won't be useful the next time.

I'm not too familiar with this case, but can someone clarify please, was the number 8 not suspended because the video didn't provide proof of foul play or was it because the video showed that there was no reason to suspend him.

[ruckruck]

firstly,touch Judge named the wrong player in his report, named the "victim" as Marys no.4, who can be clearly seen standing at the ruck where the alleged eye-gouging took place,

secondly,St Marys players could be clearly seen and heard stating "gouging ref" on a previous play whereby the referee said "no",

lastly the touch judge in question clearly reacted to the Marys players shouts and those of past pupils around him without actually having seen the alleged incident himself.

as for a senior counsel getting involved, if i had been accused of something like this and I hadnt done, id employ an entire legal team to ensure I got off but that wouldnt change the fact that my name had been tarnished.

A final point, where was the Marys player in all this, what does he have to say

[combatlogo]

firstly,touch Judge named the wrong player in his report, named the "victim" as Marys no.4, who can be clearly seen standing at the ruck where the alleged eye-gouging took place,

secondly,St Marys players could be clearly seen and heard stating "gouging ref" on a previous play whereby the referee said "no",

lastly the touch judge in question clearly reacted to the Marys players shouts and those of past pupils around him without actually having seen the alleged incident himself.

as for a senior counsel getting involved, if i had been accused of something like this and I hadnt done, id employ an entire legal team to ensure I got off but that wouldnt change the fact that my name had been tarnished.

A final point, where was the Marys player in all this, what does he have to say

How are preparations for the final going down in Clane?