Oldschoolsocks wrote: ↑December 15th, 2021, 6:38 am
Ok, so is there a non Twitter source that states that they knew at the time of putting the travel ban in place that “it was known that it was here”?
Also the article “South Africa was slapped with a travel ban” is one of the most tabloid journaly way of twisting the language I have seen in ages. I’m glad that the ppl who wrote that article aren’t in charge of health policy
If you scroll back thru this thread you'll find an article or two saying there were cases in Israel, Belgium and IIRC a few in the UK. The Variant was date to around the start of November so it basically had a month to circulate unchecked. The ban was theatre and the Africans have every reason to feel aggrieved at "Operation lockout the diseased darkies". Why ban them and not like Belgium and Israel? And I'm glad Javid has had the guts to admit it the ban was useless. From an Irish perspective what exactly is the point in banning travel from SA and not you know the UK where it also was? Thats where it came here from btw. Unless you go full NZ travel restrictions won't stop the spread or even slow it. Thats been proven time and again. Once it's here it's conditions on the ground that determine R0.
WRT the bolded, this was a politcal decision. And FYI the WHO advice on travel restrictions at the start of this was against travel restrictions as they disproportionately affected poorer countries(e.g. Ebola). It's interesting that "folow the experts" now means do what the govt says even when they come out and admit they were wrong 2 weeks later.
1: admission of fault is a strength not a weakness
2: this is a rapidly changing landscape
3: hindsight is 20:20
4: nobody or no country was “slapped with a travel ban”, that in itself is politically loaded language. Also, the WHO did not use this language to my knowledge.
5: the goal of the travel ban was to buy some time and slow down the number of cases, this did not work because of the much increased transmission rate if the new variant
6: it is a new variant, it even has a new name Omicron
7: initial reports indicate that this may be a milder variant but it is too early to say
8: apparently studies say you should consider increasing your vitamin D3 levels and get more sleep and exercise
oh, nearly forgot
9: go get your booster jab
10: wear a mask
Oldschoolsocks wrote: ↑December 15th, 2021, 4:49 pm
so there haven't been multipe lockdowns where we had to stay within 5 km radius of our house and had to work from home ?
jaysis - that's some bridge you're trying to sell me there Paddy
Highlighted the important part. Go back to the start of 2020 and the WHO were arguing against travel restrictions on China. And we didn't actually restrict international travel after Christmas 2020 which ended up a bit of a farce(and made no difference to the declining case rates. And yes we had some really dumb rules like the 2km and 5km rule which some really f%~king selfish aresholes ignored to suit themselves at regular intervals.
fixed that one for you.
so there were travel restrictions good.
IIRC WHO advised people against travelling to the epicentres of the SARS1 virus and of the MERS virus?
they did not take the same approach with H1N1
I really don't get how deeply committed some people get to restrictions. Many of which we know now to be flawed such as the the 2k rule (which was moved to 5k); €9 substantial meals; the ban on outdoor meetings/gathering. Calling people selfish arseholes when we knew at the outset lockdowns had widespread obedience limit of about 6 weeks seems a bit much. Careful on that high horse. I mean I can see why you migth be an ardent defender way back when but not now. I regularly travelled out to my mam(who lives alone) on the flimsiest of pretenses and the Gardai did nothing to stop me. Had some lovely walks on bull island and along poolbeg lighthouse. Good for the soul when you're forced to live the symptoms of depression.
Advice is not a travel restriction. You can still come and go as you please. No quarantines, PCRs, vax certs or any of that. There's a BBC world artile from the late 90s I think, which discusses a pandemic. The idea of a lockdown is completely alien to any of the experts they talk to. No wpart of that is that the internets capabilities But they couldn't seem to concieve of a world were schools and universities would be shutdown semi permanently and human development put on hold.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor wrote: ↑December 15th, 2021, 4:58 pm
Highlighted the important part. Go back to the start of 2020 and the WHO were arguing against travel restrictions on China. And we didn't actually restrict international travel after Christmas 2020 which ended up a bit of a farce(and made no difference to the declining case rates. And yes we had some really dumb rules like the 2km and 5km rule which some really f%~king selfish aresholes ignored to suit themselves at regular intervals.
fixed that one for you.
so there were travel restrictions good.
IIRC WHO advised people against travelling to the epicentres of the SARS1 virus and of the MERS virus?
they did not take the same approach with H1N1
I really don't get how deeply committed some people get to restrictions. Many of which we know now to be flawed such as the the 2k rule (which was moved to 5k); €9 substantial meals; the ban on outdoor meetings/gathering. Calling people selfish arseholes when we knew at the outset lockdowns had widespread obedience limit of about 6 weeks seems a bit much. Careful on that high horse. I mean I can see why you migth be an ardent defender way back when but not now. I regularly travelled out to my mam(who lives alone) on the flimsiest of pretenses and the Gardai did nothing to stop me. Had some lovely walks on bull island and along poolbeg lighthouse. Good for the soul when you're forced to live the symptoms of depression.
Advice is not a travel restriction. You can still come and go as you please. No quarantines, PCRs, vax certs or any of that. There's a BBC world artile from the late 90s I think, which discusses a pandemic. The idea of a lockdown is completely alien to any of the experts they talk to. No wpart of that is that the internets capabilities But they couldn't seem to concieve of a world were schools and universities would be shutdown semi permanently and human development put on hold.
Well I for one am glad that you have all of the answers Paddy.
I get it. There’s lots of people who find it easy to mock those of us who took the advice, stayed home, didn’t see our parents or siblings in person, only had our own household for company, because they all know better and their particular situation means the rules and advice don’t apply to them.
IMHO the govt at the time did their best and followed their expert advice as best they could. In general we did OK, though what happened in the nursing homes is still a travesty AFAIAC. As a nation we did pull together but we’re all f%~king fatigued to the depths of our bollixes at this stage.
I would assume that the entire point of our response to the global pandemic was to SAVE LIVES.
When I look at the death rates of various countries I see we are doing pretty good compared to most other developed countries. For example, our death rate is nearly half that of the UK!
That equates to about 5,000 people (mums, dads, brothers, sisters, nephews nieces) alive today due to how this country pulled together and responded to this deadly virus.
All things are relative but its fair to say that this country is doing and has done a very good job in handling this crisis.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
blockhead wrote: ↑December 16th, 2021, 8:48 am
I would assume that the entire point of our response to the global pandemic was to SAVE LIVES.
When I look at the death rates of various countries I see we are doing pretty good compared to most other developed countries. For example, our death rate is nearly half that of the UK!
That equates to about 5,000 people (mums, dads, brothers, sisters, nephews nieces) alive today due to how this country pulled together and responded to this deadly virus.
All things are relative but its fair to say that this country is doing and has done a very good job in handling this crisis.
1)It’s not over yet and
2) there is more to this than “did we beat the U.K.”, easily the most cringe thing about the public’s attitude to this crisis. Especially the media, breathlessly cheering restrictions here and questioning the motives of BOjo for same.
3)the sample of dead people is mostly over 82 which is the average life expectancy in Ireland so the likelihood they’re anyone sons daughters nieces or nephews seems vanishingly small to me
4)there is more to how this crisis is managed than death stats(however you choose to window dress them). Pushing out the summer reopening to the winter respiratory surge was moronic. We’ve endured stricter and longer lockdowns for no real gain, we’re still middle of the pack and most of that is probably down to youthful demographics and sparse population.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
blockhead wrote: ↑December 16th, 2021, 8:48 am
I would assume that the entire point of our response to the global pandemic was to SAVE LIVES.
When I look at the death rates of various countries I see we are doing pretty good compared to most other developed countries. For example, our death rate is nearly half that of the UK!
That equates to about 5,000 people (mums, dads, brothers, sisters, nephews nieces) alive today due to how this country pulled together and responded to this deadly virus.
All things are relative but its fair to say that this country is doing and has done a very good job in handling this crisis.
1)It’s not over yet and
2) there is more to this than “did we beat the U.K.”, easily the most cringe thing about the public’s attitude to this crisis. Especially the media, breathlessly cheering restrictions here and questioning the motives of BOjo for same.
3)the sample of dead people is mostly over 82 which is the average life expectancy in Ireland so the likelihood they’re anyone sons daughters nieces or nephews seems vanishingly small to me
4)there is more to how this crisis is managed than death stats(however you choose to window dress them). Pushing out the summer reopening to the winter respiratory surge was moronic. We’ve endured stricter and longer lockdowns for no real gain, we’re still middle of the pack and most of that is probably down to youthful demographics and sparse population.
It’s not over yet---But 2 years in, you have to say, well done Ireland.
there is more to this than “did we beat the U.K.”,--- I used the UK as an example because they are our nearest neighbour and they are the only country that we share a land border with. I thought both those facts were pertinent.
I could have used Bulgaria as a comparison, 4 times the death rate I suppose... for the record we are the 36th worst country in Europe in terms of DEATH RATE- the only criteria that really matters
Over 82's have just the same right to life as you do... don't go all Oldschool on us now.
there is more to how this crisis is managed than death stats---no there is not
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers.
The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe.
They do. But if you’re telling me they’re sons and daughters I’m calling out it as the maudlin bs it is. And I think you have to ask is it okay to suspend young peoples peoples lives indefinitely so someone can get an extra 3-4 living in enforced isolation in a nursing home.
There really is more to this crisis than raw death stats. Destroying livelihoods at a whim, subordinating young labour to the preservation of older moneyed capital and then shifting the € cost on to them is morally wrong. Other countries have had lockdowns too, they’ve been dealing with it too and on the whole they seem to have faired as well or better in a lot of cases.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor wrote: ↑December 17th, 2021, 11:12 pm
No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers.
The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe.
They do. But if you’re telling me they’re sons and daughters I’m calling out it as the maudlin bs it is. And I think you have to ask is it okay to suspend young peoples peoples lives indefinitely so someone can get an extra 3-4 living in enforced isolation in a nursing home.
There really is more to this crisis than raw death stats. Destroying livelihoods at a whim, subordinating young labour to the preservation of older moneyed capital and then shifting the € cost on to them is morally wrong. Other countries have had lockdowns too, they’ve been dealing with it too and on the whole they seem to have faired as well or better in a lot of cases.
"No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers."
I think its obvious, if you can put aside the self lothing, we have, as a nation, so far, nailed it!
Don't be afraid to be proud.
"The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe. " I explained that perfectly in my previous post.
"And I think you have to ask is it okay to suspend young peoples peoples lives indefinitely so someone can get an extra 3-4 living in enforced isolation in a nursing home" OMFG
"There really is more to this crisis than raw death stats" No. There is not.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
paddyor wrote: ↑December 17th, 2021, 11:12 pm
No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers.
The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe.
They do. But if you’re telling me they’re sons and daughters I’m calling out it as the maudlin bs it is. And I think you have to ask is it okay to suspend young peoples peoples lives indefinitely so someone can get an extra 3-4 living in enforced isolation in a nursing home.
There really is more to this crisis than raw death stats. Destroying livelihoods at a whim, subordinating young labour to the preservation of older moneyed capital and then shifting the € cost on to them is morally wrong. Other countries have had lockdowns too, they’ve been dealing with it too and on the whole they seem to have faired as well or better in a lot of cases.
"No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers."
I think its obvious, if you can put aside the self lothing, we have, as a nation, so far, nailed it!
Don't be afraid to be proud.
"The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe. " I explained that perfectly in my previous post.
Careful with that sh!t blockhead, drugs can seem fun at the time but they can lead you astray.
I've a lot of sympathy for the mistakes made in the early parts of the pandemic(sending sick people back to nursing homes etc) but we haven't nailed anything and claims like that ar just willfully ignorant. If 2k children less are born this year because fears that 1 in 1k will die due to complications, do you not think something has gone wrong? I deleted the last parts. If you're not willing to engage then fair enough.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor wrote: ↑December 17th, 2021, 11:12 pm
No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers.
The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe.
They do. But if you’re telling me they’re sons and daughters I’m calling out it as the maudlin bs it is. And I think you have to ask is it okay to suspend young peoples peoples lives indefinitely so someone can get an extra 3-4 living in enforced isolation in a nursing home.
There really is more to this crisis than raw death stats. Destroying livelihoods at a whim, subordinating young labour to the preservation of older moneyed capital and then shifting the € cost on to them is morally wrong. Other countries have had lockdowns too, they’ve been dealing with it too and on the whole they seem to have faired as well or better in a lot of cases.
"No you don’t have to anything. For the most part all we’ve done is pushed deaths and cases further out and it’s clear yet we’ll come out of this any better than our peers."
I think its obvious, if you can put aside the self lothing, we have, as a nation, so far, nailed it!
Don't be afraid to be proud.
"The U.K. comparisons are just needy. Pure cringe. " I explained that perfectly in my previous post.
"And I think you have to ask is it okay to suspend young peoples peoples lives indefinitely so someone can get an extra 3-4 living in enforced isolation in a nursing home" OMFG
"There really is more to this crisis than raw death stats" No. There is not.
You really need to get your hands on a De Lorean.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
It's quite possible that Omicron is only inherently as infectious as Delta or is possibly even less infectious.
How could that be the case.
The variable is the impact of the vaccines.
So far it appears that the vaccines give good protection from serious illness and impact, to some degree, on the infectiousness of individuals with Delta
The vaccines also appear to give protection against serious illness from Omicron.
However it doesn't seem to have any impact on the infectiousness of individuals with Omicron.l
This may be the main reason for Omicron becoming the dominant strain.
The boosters appear to reduce Omicron infectiousness to a similar level to that of Delta.
The trend in hospital cases supports s view that suggests the fourth wave has peaked.
The daily case numbers would also support that view.
There is also a degree of herd immunity becoming a factor whether break through or first time infections.
Approx 150k people have been infected in the last most, mostly unvaccinated.
Add that number to the vaccinated number and COVID is starting to run out of victims or hosts.
Given that it's Christmas it's probably wise to be cautious if you are the CMO and/or Government.
However they need to be prepared to be a lot more nimble in their thinking.
If the boosters prove to be effective then normality (or as near as possible) should be restored asap.
COVID should not be used as a blind for Flu.
The public should be told very clearly that some restrictions, mask wearing for example, will remain in place because this proved to be effective against the flu last year.
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall who's the greatest player of them all? It is Drico your majesty.
There absolutely is more to this crisis than pure deaths from Covid, to be more specific. There is certainly other ancillary damage to people in terms of physical and mental health which probably won't come to light for years.
To give a very personal example, we are close to the 1st anniversary of my mother's death, just after Christmas last year. She had been afflicted with dementia for a number of years, it was progressing very slowly and gradually. Unfortunately, once restrictions came in and the associated isolation (just her and my Dad) it's progress accelerated very rapidly and alarmingly. Part of dealing with it is keeping social connections strong and consistent. Very, very quickly she didn't even recognize me. She then had to be hospitalised and that was that, I won't go into the other issues due to the lockdowns and restrictions but she never had Covid. In all probability we would be having Christmas with her again this year if not for the pandemic.
Now, as a family we all accepted the need for lockdowns/restrictions at the time, that's not the issue. I think it's just important to recognize that there is a wide range of other impacts, including non Covid health, that result from ongoing restrictions.
Sorry for your families loss Dexter. First Christmas after a loss ike that is always hard. Don't have to enjoy it just get thru it. Take care.
My mams friend has alzheimers and she had a big deterioration in the early part which I think kind of prompted my mam(75) to become a bit feckless about meeting family members. She chucked in the towel around september last year having barely been on board at the start
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
The reason we have entered and will continue to enter lockdowns earlier and leave them later isn't because we have stupider politicians or a more gullible population. Its because we have one of the lowest icu bed capacities per capita in Europe. If you want to have less lockdowns, we need to have that as the number 1 item on the agenda at the next election.
heno wrote: ↑December 19th, 2021, 12:58 pm
The reason we have entered and will continue to enter lockdowns earlier and leave them later isn't because we have stupider politicians or a more gullible population. Its because we have one of the lowest icu bed capacities per capita in Europe. If you want to have less lockdowns, we need to have that as the number 1 item on the agenda at the next election.
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
This again. No. The CMO ruled out expanding hopsital and ICU capactity in April as he considers it a preventable infection
WRT ICU numbers. Ours are below average for the OECD but this is partly attributable to our younger population. I had some sympathy ofr this view at the start of the pandemic and you know it could take months to train nurses doctors and other staff to expand ICU capacity. But we're 2 years in(lots of time to train whoever you need) and I think you have to look at what they did and what they said. NPHET wanted lockdowns when ICU numbers were low in the middle of summer. They extended measures right up to October from the January lockdown. They are pro NPIs and think nothing of subordinating huge parts of the economy to their goals. I suspect tpart of this is Holohans multi decade crusade against alcohol(did you know he held and anti alcohol conference in DUblin in March 2020?)
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Ruckedtobits wrote: ↑December 13th, 2021, 8:04 am
Does anybody else consider it very strange that there is no process of updating the electronic Covid Pass with proof of Booster jab, given that Government are now trying to implement "an emergency programme" to vaccinate everybody over 30 by the end of the month?
This seems to be how they're handling it.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014 Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
Ruckedtobits wrote: ↑December 13th, 2021, 8:04 am
Does anybody else consider it very strange that there is no process of updating the electronic Covid Pass with proof of Booster jab, given that Government are now trying to implement "an emergency programme" to vaccinate everybody over 30 by the end of the month?
This seems to be how they're handling it.
That's the UK one, isn't it?
UK booster record is already included in the NHS app over here.
Ruckedtobits wrote: ↑December 13th, 2021, 8:04 am
Does anybody else consider it very strange that there is no process of updating the electronic Covid Pass with proof of Booster jab, given that Government are now trying to implement "an emergency programme" to vaccinate everybody over 30 by the end of the month?
This seems to be how they're handling it.
I have to say, the penmanship leaves a lot to be desired…
heno wrote: ↑December 19th, 2021, 12:58 pm
The reason we have entered and will continue to enter lockdowns earlier and leave them later isn't because we have stupider politicians or a more gullible population. Its because we have one of the lowest icu bed capacities per capita in Europe. If you want to have less lockdowns, we need to have that as the number 1 item on the agenda at the next election.
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
This again. No. The CMO ruled out expanding hopsital and ICU capactity in April as he considers it a preventable infection
WRT ICU numbers. Ours are below average for the OECD but this is partly attributable to our younger population. I had some sympathy ofr this view at the start of the pandemic and you know it could take months to train nurses doctors and other staff to expand ICU capacity. But we're 2 years in(lots of time to train whoever you need) and I think you have to look at what they did and what they said. NPHET wanted lockdowns when ICU numbers were low in the middle of summer. They extended measures right up to October from the January lockdown. They are pro NPIs and think nothing of subordinating huge parts of the economy to their goals. I suspect tpart of this is Holohans multi decade crusade against alcohol(did you know he held and anti alcohol conference in DUblin in March 2020?)
Did anything he said there disagree with what I said? I'm not suggesting that if we had a big enough hospital system we wouldn't need to wear masks or socially distance. You don't respond to a pandemic in the first instance with bricks and mortar.
Also it's not in public health's remit to decide on how many icu beds we should have or to rule building more in or out.
I'm just talking about the level of lockdown we have had to endure. And I'm informed by independent expert commentators and also those that I know that work in the health system and know how close we've been to overload several times. And also those that work in health systems in countries that have been overloaded such as Romania where they were intubating people in car parks and sending people in military transports to Poland and Germany where they had spare icu capacity.
The fact that we haven't had to witness that here with the health system we have is to be acknowledged and appreciated.
I really don't get how deeply committed some people get to restrictions. Many of which we know now to be flawed such as the the 2k rule (which was moved to 5k); €9 substantial meals; the ban on outdoor meetings/gathering. Calling people selfish arseholes when we knew at the outset lockdowns had widespread obedience limit of about 6 weeks seems a bit much. Careful on that high horse. I mean I can see why you migth be an ardent defender way back when but not now. I regularly travelled out to my mam(who lives alone) on the flimsiest of pretenses and the Gardai did nothing to stop me. Had some lovely walks on bull island and along poolbeg lighthouse. Good for the soul when you're forced to live the symptoms of depression.
