Climate Change.

[Oldschoolsocks]

OOS is right solar panels don't really give bang for buck like insulation does.
Others have posted the same.
It would need research but the type of thing that should be considered is reflective coatings on things like roofs of cars, flat roofs on houses/sheds/apartments, airplanes, trains etc.
The reflective material would have to be....
I've been told that a heat exchanger for the air in your house is a good idea.
Not sure what the retro cost might be but I suspect there is better bang for buck than installation PVs and probably better for the environment too.
Bottom line here is that there doesn't seem to be an independent source of information for all the options including approx costs.
Why is that.
As an aside, I have a a solid fuel cooker (range), it sprung a leak, thankfully I was able to get a welder to repair it.
However you're left wondering?
So tried to ring the Irish based manufacturer to ascertain how much it would cost to get a replacement boiler never mind the cost of doing the work.
Would not even give me a ballpark figure.
Said I'd have to contact an approved engineer.
That would cost me a few Euro only to be told it's not doable or whatever.
My simple thinking was replace my range with a much cheaper and more suitable (at my age) a wood burning stove etc etc, if the numbers looked right.
The DIY market in Ireland is being squeezed out of existence or severely limited deliberately by government as a source of job creation.
Simple example, why isn't the vat on insulation zero?
If you get it installed by an approved installer you can (or used to be able) get the vat back (obviously you have to jump through hoops). If you buy it yourself you get done for vat. It's still cheaper to do it yourself.
It's a load of b*%&!cks, screw the punter again for the sake of micky mouse job creation at the punters expense.
The government are only serious about the green agenda if it raises tax revenue ir creates jobs.

There’s a community scheme in my area where they’ve taken a sample for each house type and estimated costs to bring your house up to different standards, i think they’ve given three examples for each house type from just insulation up to everything including heat exchangers, led lights etc...

I don’t have the document in front of me but if your interested I can get it out and post some info later this evening.

The big message was insulation and building envelope is king

[Oldschool]

I don’t have the document in front of me but if your interested I can get it out and post some info later this evening.

The big message was insulation and building envelope is king

That would be great, in your own time.
Ta in advance.

[IanD]

Many of you might be in similar situations to my folks.

From my parents experience.

House was built in 1990. Had standard cavity walls and single glazed windows. Wooden single glazed front and back door.

Open fire with back boiler heated sitting room, the radiators and hot water tank.

Storage heaters x3 heated house during the morning and early afternoon till fire was lit in the evening.


A few years ago around within a few months

They upgraded all windows and doors to uPVC double glazed

Had the little ball insulation pumped into cavity walls.

Replaced open fire with a stove with back boiler.

Put solar panels for heating water on the roof.


The plan at the time was in winter stove provide hot water and in summer hot water off the roof.


After all that my Dad does not have facts and figures but found

In the stove he burns 55 to 65% of the coal logs etc he burned in the open fire. Gets more hot water too.

Because of the double glazing/insulation the house is warmer in the morning so the storage heaters have not been turned on since.

Even in winter solar panels heat water - not warm enough for a shower say - but means stove has less work to do heating radiators etc.

In summer my Dad goes walking or cycling and around 15:00 hrs has a bath to use up the water. By evening the tank is full again. If you don't use the hot water the tank fills and it's release is to turn on the radiators. Imagine 20 degrees outside and the radiators are on in the house.


His recommendation for upgrades in order (based on cost and ease to install against benefits)

Stove. Glass and door stops heat rising up chimney after fire is out.

Windows and doors.

Wall insulation.

Solar panels.


Other benefits from the upgrades besides less coal etc and less electricity on storage heaters

Less damp on the walls in colder corners of the house.

Less noise from traffic etc.

Less dust etc when cleaning stove.

Increased security on window and doors with double/triple locking points.

Any questions give me a shout.

PS: Before anyone slags off storage heaters. My Dad worked for the ESB so got the storage heaters cheap and had reduced bills. Worked fine for us at the time.

[Ruckedtobits]

Great post. Really useful.

[Peg Leg]

OOS is right solar panels don't really give bang for buck like insulation does.
Others have posted the same.
It would need research but the type of thing that should be considered is reflective coatings on things like roofs of cars, flat roofs on houses/sheds/apartments, airplanes, trains etc.
The reflective material would have to be....
I've been told that a heat exchanger for the air in your house is a good idea.
Not sure what the retro cost might be but I suspect there is better bang for buck than installation PVs and probably better for the environment too.
Bottom line here is that there doesn't seem to be an independent source of information for all the options including approx costs.
Why is that.
As an aside, I have a a solid fuel cooker (range), it sprung a leak, thankfully I was able to get a welder to repair it.
However you're left wondering?
So tried to ring the Irish based manufacturer to ascertain how much it would cost to get a replacement boiler never mind the cost of doing the work.
Would not even give me a ballpark figure.
Said I'd have to contact an approved engineer.
That would cost me a few Euro only to be told it's not doable or whatever.
My simple thinking was replace my range with a much cheaper and more suitable (at my age) a wood burning stove etc etc, if the numbers looked right.
The DIY market in Ireland is being squeezed out of existence or severely limited deliberately by government as a source of job creation.
Simple example, why isn't the vat on insulation zero?
If you get it installed by an approved installer you can (or used to be able) get the vat back (obviously you have to jump through hoops). If you buy it yourself you get done for vat. It's still cheaper to do it yourself.
It's a load of b*%&!cks, screw the punter again for the sake of micky mouse job creation at the punters expense.
The government are only serious about the green agenda if it raises tax revenue ir creates jobs.

Some notes on the above:
Heat recovery ventilation is very difficult to retro-fit. In theory it is extremely efficient (although older systems result in a BER penalty as the motor is running 247), but to successfully install you need a 100mm duct from every room going to a riser duct up to the motor. Which means a lot of alterations to the interior of your house if you have a standard wood joist floor/ceiling construction (otherwise the ducting can only travel the same direction as the joist runs). You also need to close up all vents in the house and seal trickle vents in windows. (The system works by mechanically managing a houses ventilation by drawing on natural sources of heat (cooker hood, utility and assited heat) and (without mixing the air) preheating the fresh air that is fed into the house).
The locking down of specialists that is manufacturer driven is a disgrace and obviously an easy adoption for insurance companies to help manage their own exposure.
Lastly "mickey mouse" jobs as you put it, or unskilled labour to the rest of us, are exactly the types of jobs we need to create. They take people off the dole, keep people out of criminal activity and contribute greatly to the coffers and community. They also are an entry level job for some who have a passing interest in construction but not the confidence or means to pursue a career adjacent to engineering.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I don’t have the document in front of me but if your interested I can get it out and post some info later this evening.

The big message was insulation and building envelope is king

That would be great, in your own time.
Ta in advance.

OK,
can't find a link to the soft copy.

here's the details of my type of house
Built 1976 - includes typical upgrades since original build
Walls: Cavity Wall at front, Hollow Block to side and rear, uninsulated with plaster finish
Floor: Suspended timber ground floor
Windows:PVC, Double Glazed, 12mm gap
Doors: Metal framed sliding door at front
Heating System: Oil Boiler, 85% efficiency
Heating Controller: Programmer only
Hot Water tank: 95 later, 25mm lagging jacket

Upgrade 1: indicative E1 to D1 approx. cost 2700 EUR
Roof insulation at ceiling level (increase up to 300mm)
Pump insulation into cavity wall (front)
Heating controls & minimum 80mm lagging jacket for hot water tank
Low Energy lights
Optional step A
Draught proof exterior doors
Draught proof hot press pipholes, attic hatch door, install chimney balloons
Optional Step B
upgrading existing glazing with low e glass
Optional Step C: partial internal/external wall insulation for select colder rooms

Upgrade 2: Indicitave E1 to B2 approx costs 33,000 EUR
Roof insulation 300mm at ceiling level
Pump insulation into cavity wall
external insulation to side and rear walls
install new double glazed windows (U=1.4) and new doors
condensing boiler and heating controls & min 80mm lagging jacket to 50mm spray on Hot water tank
new wood stove
Low energy lights

Upgrade 3: Indicitave E1 to A3 approx 54,000 EUR
Roof insulation 300mm at ceiling level
Pump insulation into cavity wall
external insulation to side and rear walls
install new triple glazed windows (U=0.9 and new insulated doors
New Wood Stove
Air-to-Water heat pump including radiator upgrade if needed plus heating controls
Whole house extract ventilation & air tightness measures
Low Energy Lights


turns out that this document is about 2 years old, so estimates may be out of date - I have not included the grants as I think they have changed since and am not sure what they are.

hopefully this helps though

[paddyor]

The DIY market in Ireland is being squeezed out of existence or severely limited deliberately by government as a source of job creation.
Simple example, why isn't the vat on insulation zero?
If you get it installed by an approved installer you can (or used to be able) get the vat back (obviously you have to jump through hoops). If you buy it yourself you get done for vat. It's still cheaper to do it yourself.
It's a load of b*%&!cks, screw the punter again for the sake of micky mouse job creation at the punters expense.
The government are only serious about the green agenda if it raises tax revenue ir creates jobs.

This kind of gets to the heart of a lot of the problems with green policy. Who's paying and for what? There's a actually a perfectly reasonable rational for only giving a VAT discount to registered installers(fraud) and an assurance that they're giving a discount for the desired outcome. Recycling being a case in point which has been almost completely pointless in the case of some waste. A lot of it gets burnt or landfill...........

This is the problem govts are wrestling with the world over. Who pays for what(either directly or via subsidy) and for what desired outcome. IIRC Obama subsidezed a solar panel co that went bust which has been used as a stick to beat the green agenda in the US(not hard tbh). If govts give easy subs they create an expectation of easy subs elsewhere and bads subs generally set back the agenda.

I'm not questioning your commitment to doing it right, you're clearly considering your options and what you should do or spend etc to help. But you're in a minority. Research I saw from a few months ago suggesting that people talk big but shy away from doing anything. My current gf has taken a run at "low carbon" make-up removing pads. They're cr@p. She's persisting for the moment, but the case is weak so she'll probably go back, and they generally don't do well even in the demo that talks the most about climate change. Right across the board this is what happens. The big personal changes people make in terms of choices will be a slow burn mostly driven by changing norms over decades.

[Oldschool]

I may have generalised a bit too much on the government employment schemes but specifically, regarding insulation, they haven't a leg to stand on.
Reduce VAT to zero on insulation products and let that be that. If it turns out to be one of the worst decisions ever made then reapply VAT.

[Oldschool]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

[FLIP]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

Big Tech companies like to base themselves in Ireland due to a welcoming tax regime, and easy access to cross Atlantic submersible cables. Irish gov likes Big Tech companies as they provide jobs and some tax revenue.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

Big Tech companies like to base themselves in Ireland due to a welcoming tax regime, and easy access to cross Atlantic submersible cables. Irish gov likes Big Tech companies as they provide jobs and some tax revenue.

Our temperate climate also plays a major role, less swings in temperature and all that

[Oldschool]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

Big Tech companies like to base themselves in Ireland due to a welcoming tax regime, and easy access to cross Atlantic submersible cables. Irish gov likes Big Tech companies as they provide jobs and some tax revenue.

Our temperate climate also plays a major role, less swings in temperature and all that

So is it fair to say that Ireland us one of the best locations in the world to minimise the CO2 produced to power these servers.
Is there not a comparison with the "tax" issues that the rest of the world is so willing to point the finger at us about.
Should they not be taking the end user share of CO2.
They don't seem to have a problem with trying to take their share of the end user Tax.

[ronk]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

Due to the networking infrastructure that gets built, big data centres tend to like being relatively close (50km) to other data centres.

It's not just Ireland. A huge amount of capacity gets built in Amsterdam and Frankfurt. Even more in the Washington DC satellite towns.

It's mostly not even Ireland. It's west Dublin.

[Oldschool]

WHEN.
When is the global body politic going to put up its' collective hand up and admit that addressing the "CO2" problem is going to cost a fortune to fix and that it also means a collective reduction in global living standards.
Until a bit of clear (as opposed to opaque) honesty is brought to the table then things are going to continue move slowly with umpteen summits of bullsh!t.
The body politic has to include opposition politicians too.
Statements like we have to role out renewables much faster are all well and good but what happens on a cold, dark winter's evening when the sun has set and there's no wind.
In the meantime the most polluting energy is the energy used at peak times of demand, whether it be electrical or transport. In the short term a serious effort needs to be made to make the general public aware of the WHEN as much as the what.
Hybrid cars are a joke and should be band
Battery powered cars isn't the answer either although they may be necessary in the short term.
Ultimately hydrogen and other hydrocarbons derived from renewable sources of energy are going to be required.
In Ireland you can install a PV panel on your roof but you can't send any excess power back into the grid so if you want to store it you have to install very expensive batteries. That's madness.
How is it that on the continent you can feed any excess power back into the grid.
And yet not a dicki bird from either our politicians or civil servants or regulator

[paddyor]

WHEN.
When is the global body politic going to put up its' collective hand up and admit that addressing the "CO2" problem is going to cost a fortune to fix and that it also means a collective reduction in global living standards.
Until a bit of clear (as opposed to opaque) honesty is brought to the table then things are going to continue move slowly with umpteen summits of bullsh!t.
The body politic has to include opposition politicians too.
Statements like we have to role out renewables much faster are all well and good but what happens on a cold, dark winter's evening when the sun has set and there's no wind.
In the meantime the most polluting energy is the energy used at peak times of demand, whether it be electrical or transport. In the short term a serious effort needs to be made to make the general public aware of the WHEN as much as the what.
Hybrid cars are a joke and should be band
Battery powered cars isn't the answer either although they may be necessary in the short term.
Ultimately hydrogen and other hydrocarbons derived from renewable sources of energy are going to be required.
In Ireland you can install a PV panel on your roof but you can't send any excess power back into the grid so if you want to store it you have to install very expensive batteries. That's madness.
How is it that on the continent you can feed any excess power back into the grid.
And yet not a dicki bird from either our politicians or civil servants or regulator

That's political suicide tbf and not at all realistic. Irate the chances of govts of the world coming together to stamp out the practices of the pandora papers higher than that. I've been blackpilled on this subject and I'm resigned to us having to make changes and adapt to climate change as we try to mitigate further pollution wihtout ever really hitting the breaks.

FIrstly, I don't think personal choices will cut it. Much as people want to change there's some things they won't budge on(my gf won't switch to eco friendly make up removal pads etc) so it will have to be collective action by governments like big infrastructure programs. Progress there will be slow and the big idea for funding it (Carbon taxes) will probably only be enough to cover interest payments on the investment required. The other thing about them is we effectively pay substantial taxes on our cars already(taxes on fuel, VAT, VRT, road tax) and it doesn't really seem to reduce usage as people need transport. Now if your cartbon tax works in discouraging use of vehicles that's going to leave a big hole in your finances and the only way to balance that out is with a)more taxes b)growth. SOemthing similar happened with the green reforms to motor tax in the 00s IIRC.

Secondly, if you're poor or a poor country the threat of losing 2% of gdp in 2050 is kind of meaningless. You'd rather lose 2% of 150bn in 2050 than 2% of 100bn by constraining growth now.

I'm not saying a h f*ck it. Just think the "solution" will be more of a grind and will involve a lot of adapting to a changing climate.

[paddyor]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

The 2/3 biggest factors AFAIK were 1)Routine maintenance at one of the generators at Huntswon, 2) A loose part comig loose and shredding the generator at Whitegate and it being hard to repair due to supply chain isssues and 3) the decision to shutdown the peat plants in the midlands. The last has been on the cards for a few years now and it could ahve happened 4-5 years ago and wouldn't have been an issue. So when we built the data centres we had lots of spare capactiy.

[Oldschool]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

The 2/3 biggest factors AFAIK were 1)Routine maintenance at one of the generators at Huntswon, 2) A loose part comig loose and shredding the generator at Whitegate and it being hard to repair due to supply chain isssues and 3) the decision to shutdown the peat plants in the midlands. The last has been on the cards for a few years now and it could ahve happened 4-5 years ago and wouldn't have been an issue. So when we built the data centres we had lots of spare capactiy.

I think a lot of the problems had to do with cycling plants on and off load when said plants were not designed for that type of operation.
The thermal shock involved damages turbine blades and results in far more frequent maintenance and downtime.
That's going to happen again if the regulator doesn't adjust the rules.
Hard to disagree with any of your first post.
Targets are going to keep getting missed until the politicians get what they want which is some sort of magical technological breakthrough.

[ronk]

.

FIrstly, I don't think personal choices will cut it. Much as people want to change there's some things they won't budge on(my gf won't switch to eco friendly make up removal pads etc) so it will have to be collective action by governments like big infrastructure programs. Progress there will be slow and the big idea for funding it (Carbon taxes) will probably only be enough to cover interest payments on the investment required. The other thing about them is we effectively pay substantial taxes on our cars already(taxes on fuel, VAT, VRT, road tax) and it doesn't really seem to reduce usage as people need transport. Now if your cartbon tax works in discouraging use of vehicles that's going to leave a big hole in your finances and the only way to balance that out is with a)more taxes b)growth. SOemthing similar happened with the green reforms to motor tax in the 00s IIRC.

Secondly, if you're poor or a poor country the threat of losing 2% of gdp in 2050 is kind of meaningless. You'd rather lose 2% of 150bn in 2050 than 2% of 100bn by constraining growth now.

I'm not saying a h f*ck it. Just think the "solution" will be more of a grind and will involve a lot of adapting to a changing climate.

Choice is often an excuse. The problem is one of mismatched incentives. As an example my landlord is replacing my gas boiler with an electric boiler. The trade off is that they get less maintenance and a cheaper boiler, I pay more for electricity and the environment suffers.

Apartment renters don't pay management fees (the bins), so they have no incentive to recycle. Landlords don't have to supply recycling bins, so why bother. In a functioning market management fees would drop and landlords would pass the savings on.

Or look at the issue of cars. Few people drive cars because they are cheaper. There are other reasons. Switching behaviour has to address the other reasons. If you want to reduce usage of 4x4s you need to remove speed bumps and create family alternative transport like easy car rental and taxis with child seats. Raising the price of 4x4s drives people to cheaper 4x4s, not to alternative transport.

Or to bring it back to rugby, should Munster use IRFU money to sign a big name or invest their own money in developing players they don't especially want to play.

[FLIP]

Listening to The Tonight Show bit on potential electricity blackout and in particular the fact that the growth in data centres would appear to be a contributing factor.
The obvious question which either wasn't asked or wasn't followed up on was.
Why, why are we installing a disproportionate % of the EUs data centre requirements.
It was mentioned that we have approx 24% of the EUs requirements and that number is going to increase massively.
So why, given the impact on our CO2 budget, are we installing all these CO2 creating data centres that actually create very few jobs.
Anybody with any answers or insights.

The 2/3 biggest factors AFAIK were 1)Routine maintenance at one of the generators at Huntswon, 2) A loose part comig loose and shredding the generator at Whitegate and it being hard to repair due to supply chain isssues and 3) the decision to shutdown the peat plants in the midlands. The last has been on the cards for a few years now and it could ahve happened 4-5 years ago and wouldn't have been an issue. So when we built the data centres we had lots of spare capactiy.

I think a lot of the problems had to do with cycling plants on and off load when said plants were not designed for that type of operation.
The thermal shock involved damages turbine blades and results in far more frequent maintenance and downtime.
That's going to happen again if the regulator doesn't adjust the rules.
Hard to disagree with any of your first post.
Targets are going to keep getting missed until the politicians get what they want which is some sort of magical technological breakthrough.

We already have that magical technological breakthrough. It's called nuclear power.

[Oldschool]

The 2/3 biggest factors AFAIK were 1)Routine maintenance at one of the generators at Huntswon, 2) A loose part comig loose and shredding the generator at Whitegate and it being hard to repair due to supply chain isssues and 3) the decision to shutdown the peat plants in the midlands. The last has been on the cards for a few years now and it could ahve happened 4-5 years ago and wouldn't have been an issue. So when we built the data centres we had lots of spare capactiy.

I think a lot of the problems had to do with cycling plants on and off load when said plants were not designed for that type of operation.
The thermal shock involved damages turbine blades and results in far more frequent maintenance and downtime.
That's going to happen again if the regulator doesn't adjust the rules.
Hard to disagree with any of your first post.
Targets are going to keep getting missed until the politicians get what they want which is some sort of magical technological breakthrough.

We already have that magical technological breakthrough. It's called nuclear power.

Good luck with that, in Ireland at least.
Some minister and government thought it wise to pass legislation that required a referendum to be held on whether or not a Nuclear Power station could be built in Ireland.
It probably covers Fusion as well so no doubt if/when that nut is cracked there will have to be a referendum held.
Queue a lot of misinformation and scaremongering.