Norn Iron leaders debate on bbc 1 last night

[combatlogo]

[You don't do irony.

You know you are wrong, go on admit it

Hey Blanky, seeing as you were banging on about my avatar, I changed it just for you. I hope you like it, it always makes me feel good.

[orfeo]

hold on a second....when presented with the facts...do you finally ACCEPT that the unnionist voters in east belfast swung overwhelmingly towards a non-unionist party?

.

But you never said "swung" Myles, you said " [East Belfast] Unionist voters voted overwhelmingly in favour of a non-Unionist party". Now that's not some voters voting overwhelmingly in favour Myles, that's ALL Unionist voters. That would mean the Alliance needed a greater percentage of the vote than the other 3 parties and we both (at least I) know that didn't happen.

In any case there may have been an overwhelming swing from the DUP but not from all Unionist voters, as the figures of 57% versus 37% illustrate.

The two Unionist parties are down a combined 27% and you think that's a majority? You could argue that alright Myles, if you're based on Planet Myles and have no grasp of basic maths.

Blanky, this involves figures greater than 32, don't tax your brain - we're still waiting for your answer to that question I keep asking you - found a modicum of moral courage that will enable you to answer it yet?

Ok Myles, when you are right - you are right ! Are you happy, a substantial part of the Unionist vote in east Belfast switched to the Alliance party. But to extrapolate as you have from this vote as you have is just displaying wilfull ignorance ! There were so many factors in play in this election that is impossible to draw any conclusion, and for you to continually ignore the Peter& Iris version of the Gerry Springer Show as the single once off factor in accounting for the drop off in the DUP vote is mind-boggling .( As an aside we can only dream that our ''crooked'' politicians were so ruthlessly and quickly punished without having recourse to tribunals and we still cant get them out !)

And to further extrapolate the the overall Unionist vote has collapsed is to to ignote the fact that the Alliance Party is a Unionist party , they just dont shout so loudly .

Come the assembly elections and all the sheep will return to the fold

[Sauvignon Blank]

Blanky, this involves figures greater than 32, don't tax your brain - we're still waiting for your answer to that question I keep asking you - found a modicum of moral courage that will enable you to answer it yet?

LOL


And what question would that be ?

[combatlogo]

Blanky, this involves figures greater than 32, don't tax your brain - we're still waiting for your answer to that question I keep asking you - found a modicum of moral courage that will enable you to answer it yet?

LOL


And what question would that be ?

Oh Blanky - don't play coy, it doesn't suit you. Were/are you a PIRA supporter? Found the intestinal fortitude yet to answer it Blanky?

You didn't tell me what you thought of the new avatar, I do hope you like it.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

In any case there may have been an overwhelming swing from the DUP but not from all Unionist voters, as the figures of 57% versus 37% illustrate......The two Unionist parties are down a combined 27% and you think that's a majority? ..a substantial part of the Unionist vote in east Belfast switched to the Alliance party. But to extrapolate as you have from this vote as you have is just displaying wilfull ignorance ! There were so many factors in play in this election that is impossible to draw any conclusion, and for you to continually ignore the Peter& Iris version of the Gerry Springer Show as the single once off factor in accounting for the drop off in the DUP vote is mind-boggling .

I'm not ignoring the "iris & peter & coffee shop guy & property developer & expenses scandal" show. I expected the unionist votes to swing towards the TUV.

They didn't - the unionists voted overwhelmingly in favour of a non-unionist party.

Leaving aside Peter "let's scrap devoloution" Robinson getting dumped out on his ear.....there was no major expenses scandal, affairs or dodgy property deals with Reg "let's bring the british army back" Empey....yet he got dumped out on his ear as well.

So your theory that unionists were simply angry about the expenses, affairs, dodgy property deals doesn't stack up. Unionists quite clearly rejected traditional unionist aspirations....granted there was only a 27% swing..but, that's a gargantuan swing in NI electoral terms. It was so big...the leaders of TWO of the biggest unionist parties in northern ireland got dumped out on their ear.

Come the assembly elections and all the sheep will return to the fold

As an aside, I wonder if you are the same person registered under two different pseudonyms. both you and combatlogo appear to be aghast at the idea of things changing for the better in norn iron. Changes such as:

• All the unionist leaders failed to win a seat
• Unionists only hold 9 out of the 18 seats
• Unionism now has only 1 MP in Belfast down from 3 out of 4 ten years ago
• North Belfast is only 2000 votes away from electing a nationalist MP
• Upper Bann is 4,000 votes from electing a nationalist MP. This could happen within 5 or 10 years.

Not forgetting that the alliance party scooped up a huge amount of votes from unionists who rejected the DUP calls to "scrap devolution and move closer to downing street"....and the UUP calls to "bring the british army back to NI".

That's an earth shattering change, orfeo/combatlogo and one that wasn't expected for at least another generation. As for the assembly elections, you do realise that Sinn Féin look like they will be the largest party?

[combatlogo]

Myles you do realise that 59% is greater than 32%, don't you?
How was Empey "dumped out on his ear" when he wasn't a sitting MP? You did know that Myles, didn't you?

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Myles you do realise that 59% is greater than 32%, don't you?
How was Empey "dumped out on his ear" when he wasn't a sitting MP? You did know that Myles, didn't you?

of course i knew empey wasn't an incumbent."dumped out on his ear" is a figure of speech.......are you aware that he got 30% of the votes last time around in east belfast?

and of course 59% is greater than 32%...why are you trying to embarrass yourself further? I'm talking about the overwhelming amount of unionist voters who swung from the DUP and the UUP in east belfast, to a non-unionist party, combatlogo.

[combatlogo]

I refer you to my post aboveMyles, you weren't talking about swings, you said unionist voters voted overwhelmingly for the alliance.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

I refer you to my post aboveMyles, you weren't talking about swings, you said unionist voters voted overwhelmingly for the alliance.

oh..I see!!! you're arguing over semantics. you actually agree with me that the overwhelming amount of unionist voters who swung from the DUP and the UUP in east belfast, to a non-unionist party....but you have a problem with me using the term "majority"...

brilliant.

I detect that you have quite a few chips on your shoulder combat logo.....do you mind me asking if you also have a problem with the following?

• All the unionist leaders failed to win a seat
• Unionists only hold 9 out of the 18 seats
• Unionism now has only 1 MP in Belfast down from 3 out of 4 ten years ago
• North Belfast is only 2000 votes away from electing a nationalist MP
• Upper Bann is 4,000 votes from electing a nationalist MP. This could happen within 5 or 10 years.

[orfeo]

Myles why would you say I '' am aghast at the possibility of change'' in Northern Ireland ? I fail to understand how you can draw any conclusions at to my point of view just because I dont agree with the your analysis of the whys and wherefores of the election. Can I also ask do you classify The Alliance party as non unionist ?

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Can I also ask do you classify The Alliance party as non unionist ?

The Alliance Party do not designate as unionist in the Assembly and their election literature do not describe them as unionist. Therefore it would be incorrect to class the alliance party as unionist...as in what it is to be part of the sectarian-tainted Unionist Party tradition.

Myles why would you say I '' am aghast at the possibility of change'' in Northern Ireland ? I fail to understand how you can draw any conclusions at to my point of view just because I dont agree with the your analysis of the whys and wherefores of the election.

well...like combatlogo (are you the same person logging in with two different pseudonyms?) you are like a munster fan in complete denial that things have changed and can't accept it. As an aside, I was on munsterfans.com earlier witnessing probably the saddest thing I have seen in rugby in a long time..i.e. munster fans making up excuses not to travel to the RDS for the game on saturday..by blowing up some anecdotal evidence, of fans going too far with the sledging, out of all proportion.....which, of course, has nothing to do with the fact that they expect to lose against leinster for the 4th time in a row. It's worse than bandwagoners. The lack of dignity is staggering and the lack of acknowledgement that there are a small minority of eejits in both sets of fans who take the banter too far, defies belief.

Getting back on topic and for example, you (like combatlogo) appear to be getting your panties in a twist when presented with facts such as 90% of the unionist swing in east belfast went to a non-unionist party (the alliance party) or in the wider picture....90% of unionist votes across northern ireland went to candidates who are doing deals with sinn féin - a scenario that would have been un-thinkable just a few years ago, orfeo/combatlogo.

You (and combatlogo) appear to be like some munster fans, i.e. incapable of looking at things objectively and in a mature fashion. the situation has moved forward significantly in last weeks elections. you can continue to deny that all you like, but, you (and combatlogos) lame attempts at trying to braindance around the facts is, quite frankly, sad.

To illustrate that point...you (and combatlogo) can't seem to grasp that, in a sectarian unionist/nationalist context, a vote for the alliance party should be described as "others".....and overwhelmingly, the vast majority of unionist swing votes - as high as 90% - in east belfast voted for the alliance party. Those Unionists in east belfast said NO to the DUP, they said NO to the UUP and they said NO to the TUV. Those unionists said YES to a non-unionist party while across Northern Ireland, 90% of unionists voted for candidates who are in government, doing deals, shaking hands and breaking bread with Sinn Féin.

Why are you (and combatlogo) so hung up on those facts?

[orfeo]

Myles , first up- I don't mind a bit of banter, humour and irony, but does everything have to descend into a slanging match. I don't agree with your views but I respect your right to them and you might accord the same in return. Now back to the discussion - a couple of questions and a comment for you-

1 Semantics aside , do you regard the Alliance Party as Unionist party ? and please dont say anything about their literature etc, many a party never say in black and white where they stand on an issue but their voters well know their views. they are admittedly of the flakey/ right wing types but not exclusively

2 What effect did the Robinson affair have on the way people voted ?


Unionists have being doing deals with S/F in large numbers for years ! That is the whole basis for powersharing , not to mention the co-operation that has gone on even longer at a council level.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

1 Semantics aside , do you regard the Alliance Party as Unionist party ? and please dont say anything about their literature etc, many a party never say in black and white where they stand on an issue but their voters well know their views. they are admittedly of the flakey/ right wing types but not exclusively

I see them as a cross-community party, orfeo with a small 'u' and small 'n' behind them...in other words moderate unionists and moderate nationalist support them.

2 What effect did the Robinson affair have on the way people voted ?

Very little. A lot of unionists are, essentially, fundamentalist christians. So, the affair meant that Iris Robinsons position was completely and utterly untenable and she, ahem, stepped down very swiftly. Peter "let's scrap devolution" Robinson, on the other hand, was applauded for his loyalty and perceived efforts to maintain dignity throughout the scandal, forgive Iris and try and save the family unit, so to speak.

However, leaving aside the affair, robinsons expenses scandal, dodgy property deals and other shenanigans were bound to have an effect on the vote. What's curious is how the vote was affected i.e. unionists overwhelmingly swung towards a non-unionist party (The cross community Alliance party) which suggests that his support for bringing the british army back to northern ireland and his "let's scrap devolution" rhetoric during the leaders debate on bbc1 a few nights before the election, may have had more of an effect on the voters than his expenses/property deals/other shenanigans.

Unionists have being doing deals with S/F in large numbers for years ! That is the whole basis for powersharing , not to mention the co-operation that has gone on even longer at a council level.

that's disingenuous in the extreme. EVERYONE remembers the famous photo of the chucklebrothers (paisley & mcguinness) sitting down at the same table in stormont for the FIRST TIME EVER in 2007. (edited: October 2007 to be precise). that photo and news story was global news because of it's significance.

This is the first chance, in a uk election, that unionist voters have had their say and they DID NOT swing towards the more hardline TUV party, they SWUNG towards the cross-community alliance party in east belfast and across Norn Iron, as much as 90% of unionists voted for unionist candidates who are working closely together with sinn fein in a power sharing agreement.

That's the big story from last weeks elections, Orfeo. It's an indication that unionist aspirations for scuppering devolution and getting closer to downing street is softening...it's as if they know the game is up.

[combatlogo]

oh..I see!!! you're arguing over semantics. you actually agree with me that the overwhelming amount of unionist voters who swung from the DUP and the UUP in east belfast, to a non-unionist party....but you have a problem with me using the term "majority"....

"Majority"? You didn't use that term myles, do you actually keep track of the gibberish you do write?

It's not semantics Myles - your inability to express your deluded thoughts in a manner the rest of us can understand isn't my fault....Your original post was akin to writing "Dublin voters voted overwhelmingly for the Green Party in the 2007 Irish General Election...eh, well not all of them, obviosuly, some of them".

brilliant.

I detect that you have quite a few chips on your shoulder combat logo.....do you mind me asking if you also have a problem with the following?

• All the unionist leaders failed to win a seat
• Unionists only hold 9 out of the 18 seats
• Unionism now has only 1 MP in Belfast down from 3 out of 4 ten years ago
• North Belfast is only 2000 votes away from electing a nationalist MP
• Upper Bann is 4,000 votes from electing a nationalist MP. This could happen within 5 or 10 years.

Couldn't care less Myles - it's all taking place in a foreign state.

You haven't a rashers Myles - you talk about 90% of Unionist votes going to parties who support devolution then you claim Robbo lost his seat because he opposed it - you can't have it both ways Myles. Robbo lost because of his extra-curricular shennanigans - you treating this as some seismic breakthrough is laughable especially when the DUP vote held up everywhere else. Why don't you call up Geraldine Kennedy and tell her you have a groundbraking analysis of the election results whcih every other commentaator has missed?

Here's a good analysis Myles, from someone who is there and actually has a clue what she's writing about.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/ar ... -wife-now/

Can you point us to the bits in the DUP manifesto where they said they were going to scrap devolution?

Fair play to the voters of East bBlfast for dumping a dodgy politician. Pity their counterparts in West Belfast voted in droves for a murderer who covered up child abuse.

[orfeo]

Myles , The Unionists have known since day 1 that the game was up since then everything has been about putting off the fatefull day, that is why they took six counties instead of nine. Everything is about saying no and delay delay delay and it has been incredibly sucessfull, even Michael Collins assumed we would have a united Ireland within a generation and hear we are nearly 100 years later and the Union is as intact as ever. A case could be made that it is even stronger in than all the injustices and inequalities have been eliminated
thus allowing catholics to say one thing and vote another.

But I think we will just have to agree to dis-agree as you wont answer any questions in the spirit in which they are asked , there is no point in saying the Alliance Party are a cross community party etc etc, the are a Unionist party as you well know . If a referendum was held in the morning in Northern Ireland on joining a 32 county republic which way would they advocate their supporters voting ?

If you feel you cant answer that 'yes' or 'no' which after all is the only option on my proposed ballot lets agree to disagree and leave it at that

[Sauvignon Blank]

Blanky, this involves figures greater than 32, don't tax your brain - we're still waiting for your answer to that question I keep asking you - found a modicum of moral courage that will enable you to answer it yet?

LOL


And what question would that be ?

Oh Blanky - don't play coy, it doesn't suit you. Were/are you a PIRA supporter? Found the intestinal fortitude yet to answer it Blanky?

You didn't tell me what you thought of the new avatar, I do hope you like it.

A PIRA supporter?

I have been at various junctures involved with in some degree the 'Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia-FARC' and on occasion been known to smoke many a Cuban Partagás with my comrades in the 'Partido Comunista del Perú'

These 'PIRA' chico's you talk about? Meh!


Intestinal fortitude? Sound like a Grand National winner.

What do I think of your Avatar?

If it makes you happy then I'm happy for you. I'm big into Catharsis, you know, getting things out in the open. Can't be doing with all this pent-up anger

[combatlogo]

That's ok Blanky, I didn't think you had it in you anyway.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

But I think we will just have to agree to dis-agree as you wont answer any questions in the spirit in which they are asked , there is no point in saying the Alliance Party are a cross community party etc etc, they are a Unionist party as you well know .

don't you mean I wont answer any questions in the way you want me to?

As for your assertion that the alliance party are a unionist party....I don't understand why you (and combatlogo) have such hangups or chips on your shoulders about the fact that it's possible to be unionist (or nationalist) but not be sectarian.

Why do you have such a problem with that?

Northern ireland has moved on dramatically since the 2005 elections...and last weeks results speaks volumes for that. For some, who would prefer to maintain the status quo, that's difficult to comprehend and accept...but, in the same breath, that's their problem.

To answer your question about the alliance party...it was founded by moderate, non-sectarian unionists in the 1970s...but, following their neutral stance on "the union", it began to attract non-sectarian voters from all communities. Long was on the bbc politics show the other day and made it very very very very clear that the alliance party wasn't a "Unionist" party.

Do you have problems grasping the idea that non-sectarian unionists could be neutral about "the union"? ditto for nationalists more concerned with equal rights and a fairer society being neutral about reunification.....or do you have a problem with the idea that a political party that started out in the 1970s may have evolved and changed over 30 years?

I simply don't get your (and combatlogo's) hangups about things moving forward.

[orfeo]

But I think we will just have to agree to dis-agree as you wont answer any questions in the spirit in which they are asked , there is no point in saying the Alliance Party are a cross community party etc etc, they are a Unionist party as you well know .

don't you mean I wont answer any questions in the way you want me to?

As for your assertion that the alliance party are a unionist party....I don't understand why you (and combatlogo) have such hangups or chips on your shoulders about the fact that it's possible to be unionist (or nationalist) but not be sectarian.

Why do you have such a problem with that?

Northern ireland moved has moved on dramatically since the 2005 elections...and last weeks results speaks volumes for that. For some, who would prefer to maintain the status quo, that's difficult to comprehend and accept...but, in the same breath, that's their problem.

To answer your question about the alliance party...it was founded by moderate, non-sectarian unionists in the 1970s...but, following their neutral stance on "the union", it began to attract non-sectarian voters from all communities. Long was on the bbc politics show the other day and made it very very very very clear that the alliance party wasn't a "Unionist" party.

Do you have problems grasping the idea that non-sectarian unionists could be neutral about "the union"? ditto for nationalists more concerned with equal rights and a fairer society being neutral about reunification.....or do you have a problem with the idea that a political party that started out in the 1970s may have evolved and changed over 30 years?

I simply don't get your (and combatlogo's) hangups about things moving forward.

No Myles , I dont mean that at all, you really dont answer any questions at all. Furthermore where on earth did you get the idea That I in any way equate Unionism with sectarianism ?
I have yet to mention sectarianism/religion/ or any other signifier or even implied it in any way in my posts ! You are labelling me with a syllogism that is inaccurate .

No I dont accept the Unionists can be neutral about ''the union'' , one could vary from enthusiastic to lukewarm but not neutral ,no .One could be an neutral and vote Unionist ,but that is not the same, similarly with nationalism .

Myles, I simply dont accept the results show the 'earth shattering signifance you seem to think they do, and the forthcoming MLA elections I believe will show this to be so. That is about the only conclusion you can draw from my posts , I dont know how you imply all this other stuff- '' chips-on-shoulders/problems moving forward/maintain the status quo''

[combatlogo]

You're wasting your time Orfeo - apparently describing people as Unionists or Nationalists is inherently sectarian and it's great that all the DUP voters were voting for a pro-devolution party, except in Belfast East where Robbo was rejected because he's anti devolution...oh, if more than one person points out how ludicrous Myles' conclusions are, they're obviosuly just the same person.