Ulster v Connacht, Fri 5th May, URC QF

[blockhead]

Demographic Dan gave Ulster an excuse to underperform and not turn up in big games. They're just embracing that excuse.

I've heard too many rants from him about it being somebody else's fault...that's never a good sign.

Demographic Dan Very good.

Desperate Dan is closer to the truth now though. (? ask yer Da)

[Dexter]

Demographic Dan gave Ulster an excuse to underperform and not turn up in big games. They're just embracing that excuse.

I've heard too many rants from him about it being somebody else's fault...that's never a good sign.

Demographic Dan Very good.

Desperate Dan is closer to the truth now though. (? ask yer Da)

Don't worry I know Desperate Dan (of the cow pie?)

[IanD]

Now just hear me out on this. It may seem a bit controversial to some.

Did anyone ever think that maybe just maybe Dan McFarland IS a good coach maybe even a very good coach. And it is not his fault the team is poor but in fact it's the players themselves that are just poor players.

The likes of Ferris and Best making sweeping pronouncements that Ulster players should be playing for Ireland raises expectations amongst the Fans and players alike only for them all to be left disappointed. Hence the 'Face doesn't Fit' type stuff.

I think the Demographic discussion could be Management 101 - a Protect the Players Smoke Screen if you will. It worked - people here are slagging off McFarland but the squad seem to escape examination.

Just something to ask yourselves.....

On current form - forgetting potential and ceilings - right this exact minute

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

If you want to carry on this on for Connacht and Munster work away but let's just take a look at the Half Backs. The fulcrum of the team some might say.

Again forrgetting about ceilings and age profile etc. at this exact minute....

At 9 would you take Cooney or Doak over Marmion or Blade. I wouldn't.

Again at 9 would you take Cooney or Doak over Casey or a non concussed Murray. Probably not.

And let's face it I don't think anyone would take Burns in his current form over Jack Carty or Jack Crowley/Ben Healy.

So second in the league to Leinster seems to be their level and some might say that with Burns at 10 they over achieved.

Losing to Connacht in a knock out Interpro Derby match can be written off as a bad day at the office. After all Connacht beat us in the Final in 2016. Funny I don't remember people calling for the coaches head back then.

I am not here to defend McFarland but I don't think all the blame can be laid at his door. I think he is in a tricky spot though. It easier to change management than change the whole squad.

[cormac]

I think quite a few of those Ulster players would be better players if they'd spent a few years with Leinster's coaches.

[Dave Cahill]

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

[Flash Gordon]

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

Stockdale is a great example. That kid was a shoe in for the Lions and for 100 caps for Ireland with the form he was developing but poor coaching plus moving him to a position where his weaknesses were most exposed have ruined the lad. Big Stu clearly benefited from the Irish environment and you'd worry about someone like Doak coming through there. There's something wrong, I think the culture has been poor up there for 10 years. They've got incredibly passionate fans who show up constantly and many of the players don't actually seem that fussed.

[ronk]

I think there's a fair argument there. Ulster are very strong in some areas and beat us last season.

Given their squad I think they've probably overachieved, and there are loads of teams underachieving.

They come up with some big wins but they've also lost when they shouldn't have too. It's not entirely unfair to call them a flaky team, which is a frustrating accusation. Collapsing like they did in the Sale game was pretty shocking. Take out the Sale game and their other losses were 15, 9 and 7 points to Leinster, 2 bonus point losses to La Rochelle and some other narrow defeats.

On one level it can be said that they lost 5 games to Leinster and La Rochelle, which isn't that big a deal.

It's not that much further they need to go to look at lot better, but they are a long distance from the top.

[Flash Gordon]

I think there's a fair argument there. Ulster are very strong in some areas and beat us last season.

Given their squad I think they've probably overachieved, and there are loads of teams underachieving.

They come up with some big wins but they've also lost when they shouldn't have too. It's not entirely unfair to call them a flaky team, which is a frustrating accusation. Collapsing like they did in the Sale game was pretty shocking. Take out the Sale game and their other losses were 15, 9 and 7 points to Leinster, 2 bonus point losses to La Rochelle and some other narrow defeats.

On one level it can be said that they lost 5 games to Leinster and La Rochelle, which isn't that big a deal.

It's not that much further they need to go to look at lot better, but they are a long distance from the top.

They were in a European Cup final in 2012, booted their coach and never kicked on. It's not just the fact that the professional team haven't won anything it's the paltry player production. I think their schools playing population is not dissimilar to ours but they just aren't producing and nurturing players through to the Ireland system. Treadwell, Burns, Addison, O'Toole and Herring came from elsewhere and Hendy is the only one consistently challenging for a starting berth. Given the base of the player pyramid I'd say there's no question that the are underachieving.

[IanD]

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

You didn't answer the question I asked.

I asked right now this minute would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team.

I didn't ask about 2018.

You have it in for McFarland and maybe you are right but personally I think it's interesting to see him dragged over the coals for finishing 2nd in the league and yet nobody addresses the squads weaknesses/strengths.

[blockhead]

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

You didn't answer the question I asked.

I asked right now this minute would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team.

I didn't ask about 2018.

You have it in for McFarland and maybe you are right but personally I think it's interesting to see him dragged over the coals for finishing 2nd in the league and yet nobody addresses the squads weaknesses/strengths.

Baloucoune would start on the wing.

[Laighin Break]

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

You didn't answer the question I asked.

I asked right now this minute would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team.

I didn't ask about 2018.

You have it in for McFarland and maybe you are right but personally I think it's interesting to see him dragged over the coals for finishing 2nd in the league and yet nobody addresses the squads weaknesses/strengths.

But isn't "right now this minute", ignoring potential and ceiling, pretty much saying it is down to coaching and not the players not being good enough?

[IanD]

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

You didn't answer the question I asked.

I asked right now this minute would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team.

I didn't ask about 2018.

You have it in for McFarland and maybe you are right but personally I think it's interesting to see him dragged over the coals for finishing 2nd in the league and yet nobody addresses the squads weaknesses/strengths.

But isn't "right now this minute", ignoring potential and ceiling, pretty much saying it is down to coaching and not the players not being good enough?

No.

[Dave Cahill]

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team?

Would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Match Day Squad?

I would suggest not.

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

You didn't answer the question I asked.

I asked right now this minute would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team.

I didn't ask about 2018.

You have it in for McFarland and maybe you are right but personally I think it's interesting to see him dragged over the coals for finishing 2nd in the league and yet nobody addresses the squads weaknesses/strengths.

You can't have it both ways though Ian - you posited that McFarland was a good coach, maybe even a very good coach and the problem is that the players are poor players. It is objectively the case that they are not poor players - we can see this when they aren't being coached by their current head coach. I don't 'have it in' for McFarland. He did a great job turning the club around when he first took over, but his time is up and it has been since the tail end of last season.

[riocard911]

I think McFarlane is pretty good, albeit his coaching staff isn't as strong as when Jared Payne was there. It seems to me that the management behind him is borderline incompetent - not retaining Payne or replacing him with like-for-like, not having the pitch playable vs LAR, the Whacky Races to get to Sale etc. etc. etc. If I would level a criticism at Dan the Man it's that he doesn't seem to be getting the best out of his squad and able to keep everybody happy with his selection policy à la Leinster's Leo.

[IanD]

But a number of those players make Irish match day squads and a number of them have made significant contributions to our success over the last 12 months.

Because it's a better environment with better coaches.

In 2018 Jacob Stockdale was the best winger in world rugby, virtually unplayable, almost unstoppable. Yes, he's had some long-term injury absences, but even taking that into account, does he look like the best winger in LIsburn, let alone Ireland, never mind the world?

Kieran Treadwell looks fairly ordinary in an Ulster shirt, but Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell have both used him in big games

And there are others

You didn't answer the question I asked.

I asked right now this minute would any of the Ulster Squad improve the Leinster Team.

I didn't ask about 2018.

You have it in for McFarland and maybe you are right but personally I think it's interesting to see him dragged over the coals for finishing 2nd in the league and yet nobody addresses the squads weaknesses/strengths.

You can't have it both ways though Ian - you posited that McFarland was a good coach, maybe even a very good coach and the problem is that the players are poor players. It is objectively the case that they are not poor players - we can see this when they aren't being coached by their current head coach. I don't 'have it in' for McFarland. He did a great job turning the club around when he first took over, but his time is up and it has been since the tail end of last season.

I never said he was a good coach.

I asked did anyone think he was a good coach.

You have said before he should be sacked and again you say his time is up. If that is not having it in for him I don't know what is.

[ronk]

It's hard for Ulster to win anything. Leinster are tough competition. In the league they were at their level for the season. Heineken Cup went badly wrong, though travel and pitch disruption was huge.

They should have been better against Connacht but we know how good Connacht can be when they're motivated and Ulster were 5m away from the Connacht line when they conceded a penalty with a pretty blatant side entry from Carty preventing Murphy making a clear out (cameras have a way of focusing on the celebrations, and never really paying attention to how the game ended). It could have been different.

Ulster are doing a lot of stuff right, but there are valid criticisms. I don't think Ulster could find a coach who would turn them into a better team than Leinster right now, so there's not a lot of point in being frustrated by that.

I think they should keep building with him and learn a few lessons, especially off the pitch. Odds are that churning the coaches would probably leave them worse off.

[naraic]

Now just hear me out on this. It may seem a bit controversial to some.

Did anyone ever think that maybe just maybe Dan McFarland IS a good coach maybe even a very good coach. And it is not his fault the team is poor but in fact it's the players themselves that are just poor players.

The likes of Ferris and Best making sweeping pronouncements that Ulster players should be playing for Ireland raises expectations amongst the Fans and players alike only for them all to be left disappointed. Hence the 'Face doesn't Fit' type stuff.

At this stage has been in situ since 2018. While Cullen has been in Leinster longer its quit a reign for a head coach.

The problem may lay with Cunningham or McFarland in terms of signing decisions but there have been quiet a few players that have flopped. He has had time to build his squad.

Personally I feel that Ulster should be winning a knockout game a season for a passable season or 2 knockout games for a very good season.

I'm really curious how next season will go. 11 players out, 2 in and 5 academy promotions will make for a different squad next season.

[jezzer]

With Leinster dominating the club game (vis a vis the other provinces) and the test side, it takes a special kind of unity and common purpose to get the other three provinces to maximise their potential and push for trophies.

And if you look at the occasions that has worked for the other provinces and the occasions it hasn't, you can't help but be struck by how important positive, happy, progressive coaches with attacking styles are to your chances of contending.

The more positive and more progressive the coaching set-up in any of Ulster, Connacht or Munster, the better the results have been. It makes total sense, as we're an island who develops and retains our own players rather than builds sides on the international market.

Is Dan McFarland one of those guys?
Well, he's worked with a who's who of top, positive coaches Lam, Carolan, S Easterby, Gregor T...

But the feeling persists that he's more a Kieran Clarke, Van Graan, Jonno Gibbes type (all great coaches, but whose style didnt fit) than a Lam/Kiss/Friend/Erasmus type.

There are enough examples on both sides to suggest pretty strongly that - no matter what your club DNA is - you need an energetic, positive and innovative head coach.

Dan has the background in rugby to be that guy. Does he have the personality? I dunno.

When things were going well for Ulster under Dan, maybe it was Payne who was filling that role. Hard to tell. .. The environment could certainly do with an injection of purpose and forward-thinking.

[Flash Gordon]

With Leinster dominating the club game (vis a vis the other provinces) and the test side, it takes a special kind of unity and common purpose to get the other three provinces to maximise their potential and push for trophies.

And if you look at the occasions that has worked for the other provinces and the occasions it hasn't, you can't help but be struck by how important positive, happy, progressive coaches with attacking styles are to your chances of contending.

The more positive and more progressive the coaching set-up in any of Ulster, Connacht or Munster, the better the results have been. It makes total sense, as we're an island who develops and retains our own players rather than builds sides on the international market.

Is Dan McFarland one of those guys?
Well, he's worked with a who's who of top, positive coaches Lam, Carolan, S Easterby, Gregor T...

But the feeling persists that he's more a Kieran Clarke, Van Graan, Jonno Gibbes type (all great coaches, but whose style didnt fit) than a Lam/Kiss/Friend/Erasmus type.

There are enough examples on both sides to suggest pretty strongly that - no matter what your club DNA is - you need an energetic, positive and innovative head coach.

Dan has the background in rugby to be that guy. Does he have the personality? I dunno.

When things were going well for Ulster under Dan, maybe it was Payne who was filling that role. Hard to tell. .. The environment could certainly do with an injection of purpose and forward-thinking.

Or alternatively maybe they need a Michael Chieka type coach to knock them into shape. The individuals are better than the collective up there and some of the staff both on and off the pitch are underperforming not just because of the technicalities of coaching but because of attitude and motivation. That's a fairly similar situation to us in the 2000's, great players underperforming for Leinster because we had a culture and attitude issue, Checks sorted that out. Leo and Joe got a lot of credit for what they did at Leinster and rightly so but they couldn't have done it without Checks' foundation.

[OTT]

If you leave aside McFarland and his coaching pedigree. Is it time for a new coach in Ulster. As an outsider I would think yes. If I was an Ulster fan I would be booing YEEEEEEESSSSSSS. McFarland has had a good crack at it.

You can be really successful and that could still be the case eg Ireland’s greatest ever coach Joe Schmidt’s end came naturally in 2019 but it was a good time for change. I think it is why Leo chooses yearly contracts (this new 2 year contract for stability an exception), he doesn’t want to overstay.

One or two wrong results in the upcoming season and the knives are back out for McFarland from fans, media and if you believe the stories some of the players. He seemed to build a real close knit team at his first build a team event 5 years ago, then when the going got tough this season he threw them under the bus by more or less saying they weren’t good enough to compete like that’s not really a unity of purpose there imo. There were also the rumours of him courting Leicester when Ulster were massively under the pump, again not exactly a bonding exercise or show of trust.

It’s just got tears written all over it. A clean break and giving a new coach a proper chance with a preseason would have made sense to me, it would have given McFarland an exit with a second placed league finish as his most recent achievement but Ulster gonna do Ulster.