future of heineken cup

[Oldschool]

Coming back to the Heineken cup, reducing it to 16 teams (6URC, 6 French, 4EPL) with 4 pools of 4 and pool winners to semi finals would allow the competition to complete in 8 weekends.
Could return to the back to back home and away matches in the middle of the pool matches block.
Should be less mismatches initially, although by not having QFs there's a fair risk that teams losing their first two matches lose interest.

With the SA involvement 5 or even 6 pools of 4 is worth considering

[neill_m]

From Daily Telegraph

Plans to overhaul the format of the Heineken Champions Cup – including a return to pool-stage qualification – will be rubber-stamped by the tournament's board of directors ahead of Saturday’s final between Leinster and La Rochelle in Dublin, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

The move comes following widespread criticism from players, coaches and supporters that the current format involving two 12-team conferences was too complicated and the lack of clarity in the narrative was undermining the status and credibility of the competition.

It is understood that the new format will include 24 teams competing in four pools of six, and with the opening two rounds taking place in December. Each pool will comprise two clubs from each of the three competing leagues – the Premiership, United Rugby Championship and Top 14, drawn on a ranking basis.

Clubs from the same league in each pool will not play against each other, resulting in four pool matches, with the third and fourth rounds to take place next January. The top four clubs from each pool will then qualify for the round of 16, in straight knockout matches to be staged in April next year.

The four clubs who do not qualify will drop down into a revamped Challenge Cup tournament, which will feature a qualifying stage of three pools of eight clubs, with the top four clubs from each pool qualifying for the round of 16.

The revamp of the second-tier tournament is an attempt to ensure it mirrors the Champions Cup in terms of the knockout stages as part of a bid to improve its status within the European game.
Number of teams could be reduced to 18


It is understood that the revised format will only be in place for next season because of the disruption caused to the domestic fixture list by the World Cup in France in September and November.

Discussions are continuing about how to make further tweaks to the format, with a proposal to reduce the number of clubs in the Championship Cup to 18 for the start of the 2024-25 season currently under strong consideration.

One of the key points yet to be agreed is how many clubs each league would provide if it was reduced from 24 clubs. The Premiership, which is expected to be reduced to a 10-club league by then, are being challenged to justify an equal three-way split given that the URC currently has 16 clubs while there are 14 clubs in France’s top flight.

There is a strong desire within European Professional Club Rugby to drive meritocracy ahead of regional representation in the rebranded Champions Cup. It is hoped that once the format is agreed for the 2024-25 season, it will remain in place for at least five years to allow the competition to cement its place and develop within a settled fixture schedule.

The drive for change comes after stakeholders were concerned that the move away from the previous qualifying format of five pools of four clubs, with six games played on a home and away basis, two seasons ago has had a detrimental impact on financial revenues Finals could be staged in America


The format was first changed in the 2020/21 season as a response to the impact of the Covid pandemic but retained for this year.

EPCR chairman Dom McKay said on Thursday the organisation is also weighing up whether to take future Champions Cup and Challenge Cup finals to the United States of America.

With Tottenham hosting next year, they have received bids from 23 potential host venues across 12 countries for 2025 and 2026 and could bring a showpiece match across the Atlantic as a tie-in with the 2031 World Cup.

[enby]

Why in the name of God would they even contemplate staging the final in the US? It is difficult to imagine a more stupid and arrogant idea. Stupid because a match like Leinster v LR or worse still Toulon v Clermont would arouse zero interest in the US sporting public. Arrogant because it would be a massive two fingers to the fans who go to the sh!t pool matches in freezing December and January and whose commitment to their teams is a massive part of the tournament's success over the years.

This should never happen.

[naraic]

Why in the name of God would they even contemplate staging the final in the US? It is difficult to imagine a more stupid and arrogant idea. Stupid because a match like Leinster v LR or worse still Toulon v Clermont would arouse zero interest in the US sporting public. Arrogant because it would be a massive two fingers to the fans who go to the sh!t pool matches in freezing December and January and whose commitment to their teams is a massive part of the tournament's success over the years.

This should never happen.

Theres an American billionaire sports promoter that owns a MLR team that wants showpiece rugby games in his city because he thnks it will help his mlr team build a fanbase.

We should be giving it proper consideration. A 10 minute discussion at epcr board level about whether he needs to put up 20 million or if 30 million would be an appropriate up front fee if he wants to host the final in his city.

[heno]

So instead of 2 groups of 12 where you don't play everybody but at least it was home and away, it's now 4 groups of 6 where you don't play everybody and it's not even home and away. How exactly is this addressing the issues people have with the current system?

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[Made Of Ale]

From Daily Telegraph

It is understood that the new format will include 24 teams competing in four pools of six, and with the opening two rounds taking place in December. Each pool will comprise two clubs from each of the three competing leagues – the Premiership, United Rugby Championship and Top 14, drawn on a ranking basis.

Clubs from the same league in each pool will not play against each other, resulting in four pool matches, with the third and fourth rounds to take place next January. The top four clubs from each pool will then qualify for the round of 16, in straight knockout matches to be staged in April next year.

Absolutely no lessons learned from this year. Seriously, who comes up with this stuff?

[cormac]

I'm guessing that the French are very reluctant to return to 9 weekends of European competition.

[bonzo]

I'm guessing that the French are very reluctant to return to 9 weekends of European competition.

Even then, why not 8 pools of 3 home and away, top two qualify, round of 16, QF, SF, F = 8 matches (and only 4 "must play"matches)?


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[heno]

I'm guessing that the French are very reluctant to return to 9 weekends of European competition.

Even then, why not 8 pools of 3 home and away, top two qualify, round of 16, QF, SF, F = 8 matches (and only 4 "must play"matches)?


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Maybe they think 4 out of 6 looks less ridiculous than 2 out of 3

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[The Doc]

I'm guessing that the French are very reluctant to return to 9 weekends of European competition.

Even then, why not 8 pools of 3 home and away, top two qualify, round of 16, QF, SF, F = 8 matches (and only 4 "must play"matches)?


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Because that requires extra weeks with "bye weeks" for the one team not playing in each group every weekend

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[MylesNaGapoleen]

love having the challenge final in the same city on a friday....marseille last year when lyon beat toulon or in bilbao when cardiff pickpocketed gloucester in the last minute 31-30 are games of rugby that will live long in the memory but friday left me wondering if it should be in different cities moving forward.

no surprise fans didn't travel - accommodation prices in Dublin at the weekend was worse than bilbao -but the (mostly) empty stadium on friday was embarrassing.

[mfjoc]

love having the challenge final in the same city on a friday....marseille last year when lyon beat toulon or in bilbao when cardiff pickpocketed gloucester in the last minute 31-30 are games of rugby that will live long in the memory but friday left me wondering if it should be in different cities moving forward.

no surprise fans didn't travel - accommodation prices in Dublin at the weekend was worse than bilbao -but the (mostly) empty stadium on friday was embarrassing.

Not sure if you were at the game on Friday but they announced that the attendance was over 30,000 which to me is pretty good
I was looking for to a good game as a neutral but unfortunately Glasgow didn't show up

[Logorrhea]

Not sure if you were at the game on Friday but they announced that the attendance was over 30,000 which to me is pretty good
I was looking for to a good game as a neutral but unfortunately Glasgow didn't show up

That was about right. The crowd wasnt bad, just Glasgow didnt turn up and their fans (there were a few thousand) had absolutely nothing to shout about.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

love having the challenge final in the same city on a friday....marseille last year when lyon beat toulon or in bilbao when cardiff pickpocketed gloucester in the last minute 31-30 are games of rugby that will live long in the memory but friday left me wondering if it should be in different cities moving forward.

no surprise fans didn't travel - accommodation prices in Dublin at the weekend was worse than bilbao -but the (mostly) empty stadium on friday was embarrassing.

Not sure if you were at the game on Friday but they announced that the attendance was over 30,000 which to me is pretty good
I was looking for to a good game as a neutral but unfortunately Glasgow didn't show up

I was. You're right about the capacity for the game..."nearly 32,000" (Sky match report). the problem is the majority of those would have been golden ticket holders (same seat both both finals), not toulon & glasgow fans..ECPR had sold 30,000 before October last year for the dublin finals. Which was well before the first round of games. i.e. nobody had any idea who would make the finals.

There was a glasgow fan sitting close to me in the south stand. he had relatives he could stay with and was the sole reason he travelled. hotel prices were off the scale.

I guess my point is most cities can't handle 4 sets of fans in the same city on the same weekend.

[Flash Gordon]

Not sure if you were at the game on Friday but they announced that the attendance was over 30,000 which to me is pretty good
I was looking for to a good game as a neutral but unfortunately Glasgow didn't show up

That was about right. The crowd wasnt bad, just Glasgow didnt turn up and their fans (there were a few thousand) had absolutely nothing to shout about.

It was one of the worst games of rugby I've seen in years. Was hoping to enjoy a good game without the usual gut wrenching tension but Glasgow were appalling. Not sure they're very good, after all we did put 70 points on them last year.....

As for the final in the USA, just when you thought the EPCR couldn't show any more contempt for supporters, they come up with an idea like that.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

It was one of the worst games of rugby I've seen in years. Was hoping to enjoy a good game without the usual gut wrenching tension but Glasgow were appalling. Not sure they're very good, after all we did put 70 points on them last year.....

As for the final in the USA, just when you thought the EPCR couldn't show any more contempt for supporters, they come up with an idea like that.

Agree about friday. heino final definitely had the two best teams in Europe but the mismatch on friday was incredible.

An USA final would be nuts. Including the SA teams has positive financial implications, obviously, but, for me, that devalued the idea of an "European competition".

That said, they do tend to come up with some odd ideas. A few years ago, I remember we played Saracens in Wembley for a pool game...which we won, but, they had a really odd half-time-show with tinnie tempah! It was utterly surreal.

[heno]

love having the challenge final in the same city on a friday....marseille last year when lyon beat toulon or in bilbao when cardiff pickpocketed gloucester in the last minute 31-30 are games of rugby that will live long in the memory but friday left me wondering if it should be in different cities moving forward.

no surprise fans didn't travel - accommodation prices in Dublin at the weekend was worse than bilbao -but the (mostly) empty stadium on friday was embarrassing.

In fairness to the EPCR, the same city/same stadium decision has been a success:

Friday's attendance was 31,514 which was the 5th highest ever.
1st (51,431) and 2nd (48,990) were in Marseille when Toulon were playing (ie home team).

The average when different city to Heineken Cup (14 years ) was 15,537 (excluding Marseille 48k above, was 12,964).
The average when same city but different stadium (5 years) was 13,761.
The average when same city / same stadium (6 years) was 32,846 (excluding Marseille 51k above, was 29,129)
The above is excluding the 2 covid years.

So the golden ticket concept is effectively doubling the attendance.

[heno]

That said, they do tend to come up with some odd ideas. A few years ago, I remember we played Saracens in Wembley for a pool game...which we won, but, they had a really odd half-time-show with tinnie tempah! It was utterly surreal.

So you're telling my we missed an opportunity to have Brush Sheils on at half time at the weekend?

[MylesNaGapoleen]

In fairness to the EPCR, the same city/same stadium decision has been a success:

Friday's attendance was 31,514 which was the 5th highest ever.
1st (51,431) and 2nd (48,990) were in Marseille when Toulon were playing (ie home team).

The average when different city to Heineken Cup (14 years ) was 15,537 (excluding Marseille 48k above, was 12,964).
The average when same city but different stadium (5 years) was 13,761.
The average when same city / same stadium (6 years) was 32,846 (excluding Marseille 51k above, was 29,129)
The above is excluding the 2 covid years.

So the golden ticket concept is effectively doubling the attendance.

I like the golden tickets and you're right..that system does increase attendance...but not always. presume the stats for friday are based on GT sales - there is no way there was 32,000 in the stadium for the friday night game.

Bilbao was the worst I can remember. Practically the entire main stand was empty when Gloucester V Cardiff played out a brilliant game. Marseille last year, when Toulon lost to Lyon, had a pretty good crowd. but that was a local final...no hotels really needed for fans.

I love the golden tickets...same seat both games is great but only in cities that can handle 4 sets of fans for the weekend. Dublin couldn't. Bilbao couldn't handle 2 sets of fans. When fans of the teams contesting are not there, it takes away from the event.

in essence...the golden ticket idea is brilliant....accommodation is the problem.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

That said, they do tend to come up with some odd ideas. A few years ago, I remember we played Saracens in Wembley for a pool game...which we won, but, they had a really odd half-time-show with tinnie tempah! It was utterly surreal.

So you're telling my we missed an opportunity to have Brush Sheils on at half time at the weekend?

in hindsight...tinnie tempah might have been a saracens, rather than an ECPR, idea. it was very odd. maybe better to have it at the fan zones instead on the pitch at half time?