Connacht 2022/23

[blockhead]

I didn't say they should.

In any case the maths would be far more favourable to him now in Connacht than it is in Leinster.

And going back to the point I actually made, he'd be a good person for Connacht to approach.

Tector is an option to replace Fitzgerald, but Sam Prendergast is more likely to be targeted.

To me it's a no-brainer - with his brother already there and doing well Prendergast is the more obvious one to target

From what I've seen in the 2 games so far, Prendergast is too important to Irelands future for him to leave the Leinster environment.

[Xanthippe]

Tector is an option to replace Fitzgerald, but Sam Prendergast is more likely to be targeted.

To me it's a no-brainer - with his brother already there and doing well Prendergast is the more obvious one to target

From what I've seen in the 2 games so far, Prendergast is too important to Irelands future for him to leave the Leinster environment.

One would hope so but he appears to be so good that if I were one of the other provinces I might be looking at giving him a full contract rather than the academy one he's likely to be offered at Leinster

[wixfjord]

Connacht aren't going to give serious consideration to signing Tector to drop Carty.

Tectors best chance if he went to Connacht would be hoping that Carty ships an injury. But he can actually in Leinster, for now at least. In a year or two as the post Sexton era settles then the maths may change. But for now he's an academy outhalf with academy outhalf chances in Connacht.

I didn't say they should.

In any case the maths would be far more favourable to him now in Connacht than it is in Leinster.

And going back to the point I actually made, he'd be a good person for Connacht to approach.

Then what was the point of saying this "Another is that Carty isn't great and seems to be getting worse".

Because he is, and in the future Tector may see it as an opportunity to usurp him if he's confident.

You made up the part about me saying Connacht should sign Tector and drop Carty. I didn't at all.

You put 2 + 2 together and got 3.

You've ignored the bit there where I said:

So the pathway in Connacht if you're optimistic and want to back yourself there should be more immediate chances there and certainly chances to get into 23s for big games

You chose to create a strawman.

But that's fine, now we're clear, we can park that point.

To simplify, I think Connacht should look at Tector because he's a high potential U20 Slam winning 10 who's in a backlog in Leinster with a potential generational talent behind him too.

Tector in return might see Connacht as an opportunity to rapidly jump up the ranks to make it into 23s for big games, because Connacht have very limited options at 10.

If you disagree, then that's fine. But it's a fairly simple opinion to understand without needing to skew it to suit the point you want to argue about.

[Dave Cahill]

Before we send Tector down the M6 with a foil pack of sandwiches and an orange Tiptop, lets just remember that he is an actual u20 grand slam winning outhalf, not a potential one with a boiled arse.

[ronk]

You made up the part about me saying Connacht should sign Tector and drop Carty. I didn't at all.

You put 2 + 2 together and got 3.

You've ignored the bit there where I said:

So the pathway in Connacht if you're optimistic and want to back yourself there should be more immediate chances there and certainly chances to get into 23s for big games

You chose to create a strawman.

But that's fine, now we're clear, we can park that point.

To simplify, I think Connacht should look at Tector because he's a high potential U20 Slam winning 10 who's in a backlog in Leinster with a potential generational talent behind him too.

Tector in return might see Connacht as an opportunity to rapidly jump up the ranks to make it into 23s for big games, because Connacht have very limited options at 10.

If you disagree, then that's fine. But it's a fairly simple opinion to understand without needing to skew it to suit the point you want to argue about.

No you made up the part about me saying that you said that Connacht said to Tector that they'd sign him with an eye to replacing Carty. Then you lashed out, which always seems to happen with you when a difference of opinion lasts a few posts.

We agree on the basic facts. We disagree on what the best route forward is. I think there are good opportunities next year for Tector in Leinster and his long term is better served by continuing to develop here. Leinster have more depth at outhalf right now but I think that because of our busier calendar and international release that the actual chances are there. This is supported by the gametime that Tector is getting this season and this month.

With a smaller squad there is still an awful lot less time to go around because Connacht don't rotate as much. Carty is mostly an 80 minute player, Fitzgerald came on a sub 4 times this season, never for the starting 10. Connacht want a utility out-half for the 22 jersey, which is why they have 3 of them (& 1 specialist outhalf).

The URC structure pretty much forces Connacht to be a midtable team in the Challenge Cup. Inconsistent isn't a big deal for them. Leinster are running a plan that requires us to win 100% of games this season and Tector is learning from the best. Every game is a big game until the SA tour (hopefully).

I think you haven't considered those aspects, and if you have it hasn't been clear. It comes up fairly often when considering positions where Leinster have more depth at first glance, but may have better opportunities anyway.

[wixfjord]

No you made up the part about me saying that you said that Connacht said to Tector that they'd sign him with an eye to replacing Carty.

...

Connacht aren't going to give serious consideration to signing Tector to drop Carty.

You're still trying to argue points I haven't made for some reason.


Once again to go back to the start:

I'm not saying 'Tector should move'.
I'm saying 'Connacht should look at him'.

[berliner]

Some random thoughts on 10s and Connacht.,

Tector and Prednergast are both in Academy year one. They cost Leinster almost nothing and there is no pressure to lighten the squad by shifting them. So, from the club's pov, keep them both - a free bet.

From their point of view, they have the opportunity to study with the master. Maybe he retires next year, maybe not. But if I were them, I'd want to work with him as long as possible. Ross has 150 Leinster caps and is the best place kicker in the country IMO, plus his international career is enjoying a renaissance - loads to pick up from him as well. After that, is it Harry or is Frawley in play?

Connacht may be about to shed Fitzgerald, who has been a good utility back for them but hasn't imposed himself. Should he go, will they give Hawkshaw/Forde a serious go at 10 or concentrate them both at 12 (or even 15?)? That to some degree depends on whether the Bundee situation is resolved. If it is, a province on a budget like Connacht's cannot afford the luxury of two real talents at 12 (by the same logic I think Tom Daly's race is run).

Harry West joined the Academy but sits behind Prendergast in the u20s pecking order. He was probably their second choice after SP. We can be sure that Galway had plenty of opportunities to pitch Sam because of the Cian connection - if the Leinster outlook darkens for him, he has an opportunity out west in his back pocket.

Ultimately Connacht will have to get a real alternative to Carty at 10. I would go so far as to say that the IRFU should involve itself given the protracted confusion at outhalf nationally. The province has some assessments of its own to make before the scale of the opportunity for a transplant becomes clear. CT and SP are best off staying put for now. All other things being equal, Harry Byrne could also be in the equation, but I have a suspicion that he might not be up for that.

[ronk]

I would go so far as to say that the IRFU should involve itself given the protracted confusion at outhalf nationally. The province has some assessments of its own to make before the scale of the opportunity for a transplant becomes clear. CT and SP are best off staying put for now. All other things being equal, Harry Byrne could also be in the equation, but I have a suspicion that he might not be up for that.

The less the IRFU is involved in this, the better.

Here we are in the 5th season after they moved Carbery, he's not in the 23 and Ross Byrne is starting. They bent over backwards to stop this happening but eventually gravity took over.

They'll make a pigs breakfast as usual as soon as they step in. They do other things well, but outhalf debates in Ireland can get very messy if they're interfered with.

[berliner]

I would go so far as to say that the IRFU should involve itself given the protracted confusion at outhalf nationally. The province has some assessments of its own to make before the scale of the opportunity for a transplant becomes clear. CT and SP are best off staying put for now. All other things being equal, Harry Byrne could also be in the equation, but I have a suspicion that he might not be up for that.

The less the IRFU is involved in this, the better.

Here we are in the 5th season after they moved Carbery, he's not in the 23 and Ross Byrne is starting. They bent over backwards to stop this happening but eventually gravity took over.

They'll make a pigs breakfast as usual as soon as they step in. They do other things well, but outhalf debates in Ireland can get very messy if they're interfered with.

Point taken.

[ronk]

No you made up the part about me saying that you said that Connacht said to Tector that they'd sign him with an eye to replacing Carty.

...

Connacht aren't going to give serious consideration to signing Tector to drop Carty.

You're still trying to argue points I haven't made for some reason.


Once again to go back to the start:

I'm not saying 'Tector should move'.
I'm saying 'Connacht should look at him'.

You're way too hung up on the you-said-I-said aspect, which is the bit that's not interesting for me. I understood your posts, I just don't agree about Tector moving.

If you reread the text you quoted you might notice that I didn't accuse you of saying that Connacht were going to replace Carty with Tector, which we both think would be daft. You did actually give some arguments for why Tector might move and in any case they're not fully seperable things. It wouldn't make sense for Connacht to approach Tector unless they had a plausible (even if wrong or risky) narrative for why a move would suit Tector. You'd only approach a player if there was a reason why they might possibly accept.

Connacht, like Ulster, play an 80 minute 20+ game a season outhalf and use the 22 jersey primarily as a fresher outside back (who can cover 10). Leinster could play Ross Byrne that way, but they don't. He's gone for 80 minutes 4 times this season in 11 starts. Carty has gone the distance every time. Burns has done the full 80 8 times, but he got injured early against La Rochelle and subbed off 3 of his next 4 games.

Connacht don't really want a specialist 10 they can't use, and anyone who's not about to challenge Carty (played 6N last year) promptly is wasting their time.

That was the more interesting debate than getting sidetracked.

[sunshiner1]

Marmion leaving to Bristol. Apparently was only offered a 1 year at Connacht which seems slightly shameful for a player of his caliber. Covid really screwed over Connacht with delays to the new ground which by this stage will be finished in 2050.

Also kudos to Lam for monitoring these guys and staying in touch with them. Marmion will be a great signing for him.

[fourthirtythree]

Marmion leaving to Bristol. Apparently was only offered a 1 year at Connacht which seems slightly shameful for a player of his caliber. Covid really screwed over Connacht with delays to the new ground which by this stage will be finished in 2050.

Also kudos to Lam for monitoring these guys and staying in touch with them. Marmion will be a great signing for him.

England qualified from November. Just miss the world cup unfortunately!

[ronk]

He's a good player to lose but Connacht do have Blade and there's not exactly a general shortage of scrumhalves.

[Ruckedtobits]

John Muldoon and the speculation surrounding his possible return to Galway will run and build until a definitive statement. He would be a very welcome addition anywhere in Irish Rugby. One smart rugby coach.

[jezzer]

The announcement in the42 includes an eyebrow-raising little tidbit:

Getting Muldoon on board would be a significant coup for Connacht, not least as they are apparently pursuing a fairly rigorous locals-first policy in contract renewals and recruitment, which has led to some disquiet in the camp in recent weeks.

[sunshiner1]

by jezzer

The announcement in the42 includes an eyebrow-raising little tidbit:

Getting Muldoon on board would be a significant coup for Connacht, not least as they are apparently pursuing a fairly rigorous locals-first policy in contract renewals and recruitment, which has led to some disquiet in the camp in recent weeks.

Pretty dumb alright. And a great way to ruin morale in a team.

[scentofgunpowder]

by jezzer

The announcement in the42 includes an eyebrow-raising little tidbit:

Getting Muldoon on board would be a significant coup for Connacht, not least as they are apparently pursuing a fairly rigorous locals-first policy in contract renewals and recruitment, which has led to some disquiet in the camp in recent weeks.

Pretty dumb alright. And a great way to ruin morale in a team.

Seeing this line repeated a lot, and I was concerned initially, but I think it's important to look at the actual actions of the branch rather than the media narrative. So far it has been cited in relation to two rumoured actions - offering Kieran Marmion a one year deal and John Muldoon a coaching role.

While I am personally disappointed Marmion is leaving, I think there is a clear and defensible logic to the decision. Caolin Blade is younger and higher in the depth chart at both provincial and international level. While having both has been a very nice luxury, it is likely hard for a team with our budgetary constraints to justify paying two international salaries in one low attrition specialist position. It would be a very different story if they were tighthead props.

It seems Senekal opted to leave, as opposed to being forced out to make room for a local. Of course there are likely plenty of more experienced forwards coaches available, but I think hiring a club legend with 5 years of relevant experience is pretty reasonable. Paul O'Connell arguably had an underwhelming CV when appointed by Ireland.

We have renewed Jordan Duggan, Sam Illo, Gavin Thornbury, David Hawkshaw, and John Porch already this year so there is clearly no embargo on non-Connacht players. Donnacha Byrne has been let go the opposite direction, so we seem to not be retaining players simply due to their place of birth. One slight concern for me is the rumoured departure of Shane Delahunt. If his not being "local" was a factor in the decision I would be quite disappointed, the guy grew up about 10 minutes from the Galway border!

[paddyor]

My read, fwiw was that they and some young talent lined up(they had the U20 SH from last year didn't they?) and they don't think they can afford to keep Marmion for 2 years. I don't think there's anything wrong about being that hard headed. The language is fairly clumsy however you look at it, given he's been there for a deacde and they've a load of players who aren't local. They probably meant for that specific position but still a bit of weird way to say it.

[scentofgunpowder]

My read, fwiw was that they and some young talent lined up(they had the U20 SH from last year didn't they?) and they don't think they can afford to keep Marmion for 2 years. I don't think there's anything wrong about being that hard headed. The language is fairly clumsy however you look at it, given he's been there for a deacde and they've a load of players who aren't local. They probably meant for that specific position but still a bit of weird way to say it.

Matthew Devine, he is excellent but due to the lack of A rugby he has been playing AIL 2B this season. The learning curve for young scrumhalves seems especially steep, think of our game in the Sportsground earlier this season where both Cormac Foley and Colm Reilly had extremely tough days.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with a pragmatic, tough decision. However, is giving a long standing club stalwart, who is still in his prime, a one year contract offer that seems to be intended to be rejected, the best course of action? Combined with some weird messaging about "locals first", I would be a bit concerned if I was a Connacht player approaching my thirties.

[mildlyinterested]

the locals first stuff is interesting considering a large part of the squad is from leinster.