Munster Rugby 2021/2022 - Search for the Holy Grail

[Oldschoolsocks]

Is Joey just going through a rough patch confidence wise or is it something more serious?

He looks a shadow of the player he threatened to be at Leinster.

this deserves a list

• the guts of two years out through injury,

• a pack that was pretty much beaten up for 70 minutes,

• steamrollered more than once by Big Bundee Aki,

• was he even ever a viable option at 10 at this level and above - Leo and Burt certainly didn't seem to think so

imho, he's a 15 at this level, not a 10...

[Hoofhearted]

The fickle masses on MF are starting the Joey isn't up to 10 conversation.

Odds on a return to Leinster?

[Keith]

The fickle masses on MF are starting the Joey isn't up to 10 conversation.

Odds on a return to Leinster?

It wouldn't be like Munster fans to turn on their own flyhalf.

[Oldschoolsocks]

The fickle masses on MF are starting the Joey isn't up to 10 conversation.

Odds on a return to Leinster?

are they wrong though? Burt and Leo certainly didn't think he was a 10...

PS. I think we got the better end of the deal in Ross Byrne

[johng]

Hold on.

Is the late late show still going?

Do people under 70 watch it?

No... Really? Fock right off

Always liked Keet. Agree with M1's sentiments.

[hugonaut]

Carbery's low on confidence and low on form. Ben Healy's one start for Munster so far this season showed him to be very confident, in great form and having improved a couple of important areas of his game significantly – his passing, especially his long passing, has improved a lot and he has become a less conservative decision-maker. Nobody in Munster ever got criticised for being conservative, but if you only ever play within a framework, you won't have the practice at taking the game into your own hands when that is required.

I can see the reasoning behind van Graan's decision to select Carbery after Healy's good performance against the Scarlets – it's allowing a guy his chance to meet the challenge. However, Joey completely failed to rise to the challenge. He was poor again, and it was highlighted by his opposite number being so much better than him.

So it's clearly time to drop him. It could not be more obvious. On current form, it looks like Healy give Munster a better chance of winning, he helps the team to play better and he's individually a lot more productive and dependable than Carbery. He's also younger, stronger and home-grown ... where's the downside? That's not a rhetorical question. What is it?

Carbery has been treated like the face of the franchise since arriving in Munster more than three years ago. He's certainly had a tough time with injury, but he has always been treated with kid gloves by van Graan, and has always walked into the team when fit, regardless of how well he is playing or how well other players are playing. That approach isn't working at the moment, and Munster have a couple of very good young outhalf prospects [Crowley was playing fullback for Cork Con in the AIL yesterday] ... so why not see if actually competing for his place brings something out in him?

[ronk]

Carbery could be broken, he could be afraid of being broken, he could be having a Madigan regression or he could be struggling with the game-plan. Probably a combination.

This close the the international window you'd have to think that Faz will want to see for himself, especially about the last bit (but also the 2nd as maybe he's holding back). There's just been too much invested in Carbery to not give him a chance.

It would be hard for van Graan to fully drop him before the break due to the political cost, unless Faz is dropping him anyway. (Best case he never gets a favour again, worst case he gets sacked next time he comes under pressure).

[ronk]

By far the best bit of midfield passing I remember was Kilcoyne offload for Ryan. There really wants a lot else once it got outside first receiver.

[munster#1]

I haven’t watched the match back, but from being at the match, massive credit has to go to Connacht for really putting it up to Munster.

They matched them upfront and controlled the pace of the game really well, preventing Munster from getting a foothold.

On the Joey situation, I would hate for the negativity to get out of hand, but right now it would not be unreasonable to suggest that Healy is given the 10 shirt for the big games.

It is easy to say that he should be at 15, but imo he wouldn’t be good enough to take the jersey from Haley, who is one of the most consistent players in the Munster team.

[ronk]

Stats here https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats? ... gue=270557

Again Carbery missed more tackles than he made. You'd need to be doing something special to overcome that. That's a warning sign that there's an issue with him trusting that his body is 100%

[Keith]

Carbery could be broken, he could be afraid of being broken, he could be having a Madigan regression or he could be struggling with the game-plan. Probably a combination.

This close the the international window you'd have to think that Faz will want to see for himself, especially about the last bit (but also the 2nd as maybe he's holding back). There's just been too much invested in Carbery to not give him a chance.

It would be hard for van Graan to fully drop him before the break due to the political cost, unless Faz is dropping him anyway. (Best case he never gets a favour again, worst case he gets sacked next time he comes under pressure).

Defensive issues aside, is he really playing that bad? I know he's not playing great but the speed in which fans are turning on him is surprising. The criticism seems a bit overboard at the minute.

[munster#1]

Carbery could be broken, he could be afraid of being broken, he could be having a Madigan regression or he could be struggling with the game-plan. Probably a combination.

This close the the international window you'd have to think that Faz will want to see for himself, especially about the last bit (but also the 2nd as maybe he's holding back). There's just been too much invested in Carbery to not give him a chance.

It would be hard for van Graan to fully drop him before the break due to the political cost, unless Faz is dropping him anyway. (Best case he never gets a favour again, worst case he gets sacked next time he comes under pressure).

Defensive issues aside, is he really playing that bad? I know he's not playing great but the speed in which fans are turning on him is surprising. The criticism seems a bit overboard at the minute.

He is not playing terrible, but is also not playing well enough that you would be confident against difficult opposition.

What concerned me last night was that he seemed unable or unwilling to put good distance on his kicks from hand.
He was gaining little distance on penalties, which means more work for the rest of the team after a lineout.

Nobody can say with certainty that Healy is the answer, but for me both should be given an equal opportunity to become first choice.

I, like everyone in the country, really hope that Joey comes good, as he is needed as much in green as he is in red.

[ronk]

Joey is supposed to be an elusive runner who ties down backrows, plays flat and distributes well. If he's not doing that you have an underpowered outhalf who's kicking accurately with decent range. In which case you may as well be picking the more physical guy with the huge boot and give him a chance to get better.

[Oldschool]

Joey is supposed to be an elusive runner who ties down backrows, plays flat and distributes well. If he's not doing that you have an underpowered outhalf who's kicking accurately with decent range. In which case you may as well be picking the more physical guy with the huge boot and give him a chance to get better.

+1
Now is the time to find out if Healy can go to the next level, not in a years time when the RWC is looming and god knows how we'll be fixed at 10 for the Ireland job.

[hugonaut]

Carbery could be broken, he could be afraid of being broken, he could be having a Madigan regression or he could be struggling with the game-plan. Probably a combination.

This close the the international window you'd have to think that Faz will want to see for himself, especially about the last bit (but also the 2nd as maybe he's holding back). There's just been too much invested in Carbery to not give him a chance.

It would be hard for van Graan to fully drop him before the break due to the political cost, unless Faz is dropping him anyway. (Best case he never gets a favour again, worst case he gets sacked next time he comes under pressure).

Defensive issues aside, is he really playing that bad? I know he's not playing great but the speed in which fans are turning on him is surprising. The criticism seems a bit overboard at the minute.

Yeah, I think he's playing really ordinary stuff. He was back on the pitch for Munster at the end of February – that's almost eight months ago now. He's had a full pre-season. There's no obvious reason for him to be struggling so badly. He's out of form.

I'm not saying he's a bust or he's finished, but why pick a guy who is not playing well? It should have been the biggest takeaway from Ireland's 2019 season ... if you keep on picking guys who aren't playing well, they're going to continue to play badly.

[ronk]

[
Yeah, I think he's playing really ordinary stuff. He was back on the pitch for Munster at the end of February – that's almost eight months ago now. He's had a full pre-season. There's no obvious reason for him to be struggling so badly. He's out of form.

I'm not saying he's a bust or he's finished, but why pick a guy who is not playing well? It should have been the biggest takeaway from Ireland's 2019 season ... if you keep on picking guys who aren't playing well, they're going to continue to play badly.

Lowering him a level lets him concentrate on beating other opposition. Which might be the way for him to build back form. At the moment I have the feeling that he's holding back to establish a number of games with the intention of going gung ho at the international break. The problem is that it should have happened in the Summer tour.

[wixfjord]

Joey is supposed to be an elusive runner who ties down backrows, plays flat and distributes well. If he's not doing that you have an underpowered outhalf who's kicking accurately with decent range. In which case you may as well be picking the more physical guy with the huge boot and give him a chance to get better.

That's a very good point.

To me, Joey's physical failings have been shown up a bit over last few games. Missed tackles, but also rush defences have pushed him back inside and caused him to be swallowed up by big forwards.

Compare this to the freedom Hugo Keenan is getting from 15 for us and you'd just wonder if he's thinking what could've been.

[Keith]

Joey is supposed to be an elusive runner who ties down backrows, plays flat and distributes well. If he's not doing that you have an underpowered outhalf who's kicking accurately with decent range. In which case you may as well be picking the more physical guy with the huge boot and give him a chance to get better.

+1
Now is the time to find out if Healy can go to the next level, not in a years time when the RWC is looming and god knows how we'll be fixed at 10 for the Ireland job.

I think it's more urgent to get Healy on the pitch due to him being SQ and him only having a one year contract. With the IRFU giving central contracts to players over 30 and Farrells team selections, do they actually give much of a damn about the next world cup?

[ronk]

Ireland is different. There there are other options with loads of provincial experience, enough international time that they can slot in and proof that they can run an attacking backline.

There are 4 players battling for the next place on the depth chart (2nd/3rd). It wouldn't take much for one of those 4 to be starting a big game. There's no room for messing about and leaving Ireland unprepared.

[JB1973]

we have got Munster on the weekend and will be with out all our welsh squad players, will Munster have their test boys available? when do the Irish lads go into camp?