Munster Rugby 2021/2022 - Search for the Holy Grail

[ronk]

I haven't heard if Zebo is injured or just not selected. Interesting to see that he's only played away twice this season, lost both.

Also interesting that he scored his first game of the season, his first game back after the red card, first game after both losses. Also scored one in the 64-3 win over the Dragons after a month off.

https://all.rugby/player/simon-zebo

[Ruckedtobits]

The Holy Grail is keeping his head down at present.

That was a terrible display.

[Oldschool]

The Holy Grail is keeping his head down at present.

That was a terrible display.

Worrying display for both Munster and Ireland.
Too many spent forces barely dialing it in.

[deco]

t
The Holy Grail is keeping his head down at present.

That was a terrible display.

Worrying display for both Munster and Ireland.
Too many spent forces barely dialing it in.

The "Ireland needs a strong Munster" cliche? Ireland’s unprecedented success over the last decade and a half have proven this to be untrue. It would be ideal if Connacht and Munster supplied a few players, maybe even home grown ones, but the lack of hasn't stymied team Ireland.

[ronk]

t
The Holy Grail is keeping his head down at present.

That was a terrible display.

Worrying display for both Munster and Ireland.
Too many spent forces barely dialing it in.

The "Ireland needs a strong Munster" cliche? Ireland’s unprecedented success over the last decade and a half have proven this to be untrue. It would be ideal if Connacht and Munster supplied a few players, maybe even home grown ones, but the lack of hasn't stymied team Ireland.

Commercially strong. They have a white elephant stadium and need fans.

[hugonaut]

That was a calamitous end to Munster's season. They were dreadful. It reminded me of the end of McGahan's reign [2011-12], when they got pumped 45-10 by the Ospreys in Swansea ... some p*ss and vinegar at the start, and then a shocking collapse with virtually limitless errors.

In that game, Munster had Earls [24], Zebo [22], Murray [23], Mike Sherry [23], O'Donnell [24] and O'Mahony [22] in the starting XV, alongside some of the old guard like Donncha O'Callaghan [33] and Mick O'Driscoll [33].

That was ten years ago, and at the time every article about Munster in the Irish rugby media was about them being 'in transition'. McGahan was at the end of his contract and had done quite a good job over the last nine months of his stint bringing younger players into the matchday squad – apart from the lads named above, Dave Kilcoyne [22], Stephen Archer [24] and Dave O'Callaghan [22] were also in that matchday squad, as were Ivan Dineen [24] and Danny Barnes [22]. Ian Keatley [25] had been brought in from Connacht to play outhalf, and started ahead of ROG [35].

Ten years down the line, and now those guys – Earls, Murray, O'Mahony – are the old guard. That's always very likely to happen, it's not particularly noteworthy. What makes the situations similar is that in the 2011-12 game, Munster had just one home-produced player in the starting lineup, Donnacha Ryan [b.1983], who was born in the long period between:

- the O'Gara-O'Connell era [O'Gara, Marcus Horan, Peter Stringer, Mick O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, b.1977-79] and
- the Earls-Zebo era [Earls, O'Donnell, Kilcoyne, Archer, John Ryan, Murray, O'Mahony, Zebo, b.1987-90]

They had Ryan [b.1983] at blindside and then O'Leary [b.1983] at sub-scrum-half and Denis Fogarty [b.1983] at sub hooker. The other players in the matchday squad born from 1980-1986 [inclusive] were all from outside Munster. Obviously that group that was born in 1983 disrupts the timeline, but no Munster-born-and-bred players born in 1980 [31/32 years old at the time of the game], 1981 [30/31], 1982 [29/30], 1984 [27/28], 1985 [26/27], 1986 [25/26] in that matchday squad – a big, big hole.

Ten years later, and it's such a similar story.

This time out, you've got Niall Scannell [b.1992] as the only Munster born-and-bred player in the matchday 23 between the Earls-Zebo era and the Coombes-Ahern era of Gavin Coombes, Fineen Wycherly [b.1997]; Diarmuid Barron [b.1998], Craig Casey and Ben Healy [b.1999], Tom Ahern [b.2000]

With the exception of Niall Scannell, everybody in the most recent Munster matchday squad born between 1990-1996 [a seven year period] was from outside Munster, i.e. no Munster-born-and-bred players born 1990 [31/32 at the time of the game] through to 1996 [25-26]. Granted, Jack O'Donoghue [b.1994] was missing and he would certainly have been in the team if available. But that's still just two homegrown players from a seven year period in the best matchday squad you can put out.

[ronk]

That's basically it. They've produced 2 good players a year for 3-4 year spells and then produced 1-2 relatively okay players over a 6 year period.

The periods of development were driven by pressing need.

[hugonaut]

That big gap in the squad is going to continue to be a problem for Munster for the next four to five years, because you can't fix that problem in retrospect. You have to resolve it while it is happening by recognising it, motivating the sh*t out of less talented players and making sure that your individual coaching and unit training is absolutely first rate.

Instead of doing that, Munster carry the most bloated squad around - 48 players in their senior squad! – and have a huge number of players who barely play:

2021-22
1. Jake Flannery [22] - 1+1/68 mins
2. James French [23] - 1+0/55 mins
3. Sean French [22] - 1+0/51 mins
4. Alex McHenry [24] - 0+0/0mins
5. Declan Moore [25] - 0+1/10 mins
6. Kevin O'Byrne [31] - 0+3/52 mins
7. Liam O'Connor [26] - 0+0/0 mins
8. Rowan Osborne [25] - 0+2/17 mins
9. Roman Salanoa [24] - 0+2/50 mins

Nine players combining for 303 minutes this season. Somewhere between €250-400k on salaries for 300 mins ... that's about €825 - €1320 per minute.

Players get new contracts for doing √FA. Liam O'Connor has played 322 mins in three seasons and signed a one year extension in January of this year [while injured]; Roman Salanoa has played 170 mins of rugby over two seasons and signed a new three-year deal [source: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2022/01/12/ ... ter-rugby/ ]. Liam Coombes is a 25 year old who has played in 12 games over four seasons and was recently given a two-year deal on the back of playing in 4 games of a 26 game season [source: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2022/01/05/ ... xtensions/ ].

I'm picking out examples to make it more pointed. It might be impolitic to name names, but I don't have anything personally against these players. I just see them as symptomatic of a bloated, comfortable and under-performing organisation. After all, they're not the ones who are writing the contracts; they're just accepting a job offer.

[hugonaut]

Munster have got to the point where the veteran group of homegrown players [30-34 year olds] are getting injured more frequently. Some are in noticeable decline.

- Zebo [32 / 157 Munster apps] played in 13 games of a 26 game season. He didn't get a ban for his red card against Ulster, which was fair enough, and he hasn't been in any international squads. He just gets injured.

- Earls [34 / 193 Munster apps] played in 12 games for Munster; he played in the three Autumn internationals as a sub, but missed a lot of rugby between January and April due to injury.

- Kilcoyne [33 / 200 Munster apps.] has played 23 games for Munster in the last three seasons, the same number he played in 2018-19 in one season. He averaged almost 25 games a season for Munster in his seven seasons in the senior squad in his 20s, down to less than 8 games/season for the province since turning 30.

- It's absolutely grim to see Conor Murray [33 / 163 Munster apps] playing the way he did against Ulster on Friday. The guy has been one of the best scrum-halves in the world for the majority of his career, but he was dreadful; he was killing his team. I've never seen him put in a worse half of rugby in his professional career.

- O'Mahony [32 / 160 Munster apps] was very quiet in that game, but in fairness to him anybody can have an off-day and he has played a lot of very good/excellent rugby this season.

- Stephen Archer [34/ 248 Munster apps] turned in your typical Archer performance, just this time against Ulster; it's very surprising and quite symptomatic that Munster have relied on him so much for a decade.

- John Ryan [33 / 197 Munster apps] is heading off to Wasps next season.

Earls has 96 Irish caps, as does Murray; O'Mahony has 84 caps; Kilcoyne has 48 caps; Zebo has 35 caps; Ryan has 24 caps, and Archer has a pair of caps.
Four of those players were B&I Lions [Murray, O'Mahony, Earls and Zebo]; Murray was named as captain of the Lions as recently as last year.

Their successors are coming from this group.

1991 [30/31] - N/A [Kevin O'Byrne is leaving for Ealing]
1992 [29/30] - Niall Scannell [20 caps, last capped 2019], Neil Cronin;
1993 [28/29] - Rory Scannell [3 caps, last capped 2017]
1994 [27/28] - Jack O'Donoghue [2 caps, last capped 2017], Dan Goggin;
1995 [26/27] - Liam O'Connor
1996 [25/26] - Shane Daly [2 caps, last capped 2021]

It's a parochial organisation, for better and/or worse. You can write that Conway and Beirne and Farrell are all going to inherit the mantle as leaders, but if you're involved in a successful international set-up and an iffy provincial set-up, I'd imagine its a tougher split to manage your resources if you haven't grown up aiming to play for the province.

EDIT: for improved legibility.

[ronk]

That's big gap in the squad is going to continue to be a problem for Munster for the next four to five years, because you can't fix that problem in retrospect. You have to resolve it while it is happening by recognising it, motivating the sh*t out of less talented players and making sure that your individual coaching and unit training is absolutely first rate.

Instead of doing that, Munster carry the most bloated squad around - 48 players in their senior squad! – and have a huge number of players who barely play:

2021-22
1. Jake Flannery [22] - 1+1/68 mins
2. James French [23] - 1+0/55 mins
3. Sean French [22] - 1+0/51 mins
4. Alex McHenry [24] - 0+0/0mins
5. Declan Moore [25] - 0+1/10 mins
6. Kevin O'Byrne [31] - 0+3/52 mins
7. Liam O'Connor [26] - 0+0/0 mins
8. Rowan Osborne [25] - 0+2/17 mins
9. Roman Salanoa [24] - 0+2/50 mins

Nine players combining for 303 minutes this season. Somewhere between €250-400k on salaries for 300 mins ... that's about €825 - €1320 per minute.

Players get new contracts for doing √FA. Liam O'Connor has played 322 mins in three seasons and signed a one year extension in January of this year [while injured]; Roman Salanoa has played 170 mins of rugby over two seasons and signed a new three-year deal [source: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2022/01/12/ ... ter-rugby/ ]. Liam Coombes is a 25 year old who has played in 12 games over four seasons and was recently given a two-year deal on the back of playing in 4 games of a 26 game season [source: https://www.munsterrugby.ie/2022/01/05/ ... xtensions/ ].

I'm picking out examples to make it more pointed. It might be impolitic to name names, but I don't have anything personally against these players. I just see them as symptomatic of a bloated, comfortable and under-performing organisation. After all, they're not the ones who are writing the contracts; they're just accepting a job offer.

I've seen plenty of sites that have the raw data but none that present it in one place.

Leinster are probably better at sharing out minutes, but it's a tough enough task. It's been a trend for a while that Munster let people fall out the bottom of the depth chart. You get dropped with prejudice.

KOB was a weird example. Went from Pro14 team of the year to a break glass player who was lucky to get 3 sub appearances.

[Oldschool]

t
The Holy Grail is keeping his head down at present.

That was a terrible display.

Worrying display for both Munster and Ireland.
Too many spent forces barely dialing it in.

The "Ireland needs a strong Munster" cliche? Ireland’s unprecedented success over the last decade and a half have proven this to be untrue. It would be ideal if Connacht and Munster supplied a few players, maybe even home grown ones, but the lack of hasn't stymied team Ireland.

It's a fact rather than a cliche but either way it shouldn't be used as an excuse for Munster to be allowed sign NIQ whenever they want.
The two biggest problems Munster have is getting away from a forward based game and finding the right coaching ticket to do that. Signing Saffer coaches was never a good idea. The mind just boggles at the logic of those decisions.
Another reason we need Munster (Connacht and Ulster also) to be stronger is that Leinster are producing more players than they need.
Do those surplus players really want to go to Munster given the current mess they're In?
Did they even approach Dunne before he headed off to the UK.

[hugonaut]

As alluded to in my previous post, I think a lot of the decision-making with regards to player promotion and retention is average, both from the coaching side and the board side.

Somebody badly needs to change that culture – the culture of giving guys contracts without having a plan for them, the culture of wasting Munster's money and a player's time by only playing him once every two months, the culture of paying for guys to get old on the job, the culture of undroppables and queuing, the culture of going to the IRFU and asking them to put subs on central contracts.

A head coach can't [and won't] do that on his own. Your CEO has to do it, along with a DoR if there is one. But Munster's CEO doesn't have a f*cking scooby about rugby and he hasn't appointed a DoR.

Munster don't send that many players to Ireland. Beirne, Carbery, Casey, Conway, Kilcoyne, Murray and O'Mahony in the Six Nations squad [source: https://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/men/team/ ] - 7 players. It was Beirne, Carbery, Casey, Conway, Earls, Murray, O'Mahony for the 2021 AIs – again, 7 players.

So they lose halfbacks [Murray, Casey, Carbery], wingers [Earls and Conway], a second row/blindside [Beirne], a flanker [O'Mahony] and a loosehead [Kilcoyne]. They could lose a couple more backrows next season in Coombes and O'Donoghue.

They're the only players they need cover for. They don't need 48 players in their squad. It's inefficient, uneconomical and counter-productive. Oh, you're down 7 players? You've still got 41 in your squad, that means that 15/16 of them aren't even going to get into their tracksuits on matchday.

Leinster had 16 players in the 2022 Six Nations squad – more than double the Munster count – and we have fewer players in our squad [46]; we had 17 players in the 2021 AI squad. We're loosing two looseheads [Porter & Healy], two hookers [Kelleher & Sheehan], a tighthead [Furlong], two locks [Ryan & Baird], three backrows [Doris, van der Flier and Conan], two/three halfbacks [Gibson-Park, Sexton and for the AIs, Harry Byrne], two centres [Ringrose & Henshaw] and two back-three players [Lowe and Keenan]. We might have a few of Larmour, Molony, McCarthy, Frawley and Ross Byrne [at the expense of HB] in the squad for NZ in addition to those other lads.

Munster need quite badly to trim their squad back to around 40 players. You go to your academy if you've got a tricky injury situation. Do they need to take young players in earlier and turn their academy into a four year system? Maybe they do. Do they need a full-time skills coach? Yes. Do they need a full-time academy skills coach? Yes. Where does the money for those guys come from? You save it by not giving contracts to players who you don't have a plan for. You need to spend that money like it is your own, because they've been doing it the other way for a decade and they've only got worse.

[leinsterforever]

Good posts, Hugonaut. It's posts like that that make it far more worthwhile reading internet forums than the sports pages of newspapers, which I've pretty much given up at this stage.

Can anyone think of a reason Munster have largely preferred Archer to John Ryan since van Graan came in? It wasn't the case while Erasmus was there, if memory serves. He has his health issues, but they've always been there as far as I know. And now Ryan is leaving, presumably because Munster don't want to afford the bigger salary of someone who's earnt more international caps than Archer.

It just seems strange that they haven't made more use of someone who has been a good quality international when that's what they need in the front five.

[ronk]

Munster do periodic clearouts. Partly because they let their squad build up. Leinster are having one this year which is rarer.

Even this year it's 10 out and 3 signings. https://all.rugby/transfers/munster

Looking at the list of players with limited minutes it looks like they like having lots of wingers they don't need, have some extra scrumhalves that they actually might need and retain lots of extra front rows for a combination of reasons including the hope that one will be a late developer.

[ronk]

https://www.the42.ie/johann-van-graan-5 ... 1-Jun2022/

History will be kind to him, eh? It's a very bad sign for Munster's prospects if that's true.

[Oldschool]

https://www.the42.ie/johann-van-graan-5 ... 1-Jun2022/

History will be kind to him, eh? It's a very bad sign for Munster's prospects if that's true.

Depends on who's writing the history.
His autobiography might!!!!!! be interesting but I won't be buying it.

[Morf]

https://www.the42.ie/johann-van-graan-5 ... 1-Jun2022/

History will be kind to him, eh? It's a very bad sign for Munster's prospects if that's true.

Garry Doyle is a perfect example of the apologist attitude that allows Munster not to make difficult choices to see meaningful improvement.

[the spoofer]

https://www.the42.ie/johann-van-graan-5 ... 1-Jun2022/

History will be kind to him, eh? It's a very bad sign for Munster's prospects if that's true.

Garry Doyle is a perfect example of the apologist attitude that allows Munster not to make difficult choices to see meaningful improvement.

ROC has a similar piece. Really weird why they’d go to bat for a departing coaching ticket.

[wixfjord]

I would think a big part of it is the fact JVG is a nice lad who was always good to the media.

Compare that to the treatment of Schmidt in the media for eg, a man on the polar opposite end of the coaching spectrum to JVG in almost every way, yet who ROC et al went after consistently because he wouldn't play ball with them at all.

[RoboProp]

https://www.the42.ie/johann-van-graan-5 ... 1-Jun2022/

History will be kind to him, eh? It's a very bad sign for Munster's prospects if that's true.

Garry Doyle is a perfect example of the apologist attitude that allows Munster not to make difficult choices to see meaningful improvement.

ROC has a similar piece. Really weird why they’d go to bat for a departing coaching ticket.

Munster are a sacred cow and all that jazz