Pro14 - Sooner SA teams the better

[munster#1]

Dearest Munsterfan#1,

your post doesn't come across in the slightest bit aggressive. Your points are all well made. I would agree with most of them. Our league has room for improvement no question. I too find it annoying how badly the Welsh and Scottish teams are performing and are organised, but there is very little we can do about that, only keep improving ourselves - and as an Ireland fan, I'm delighted to see the successful blooding of young players by Munster. Most if not all leagues have perennial winners and also rans - the major soccer leagues in Germany, England, France, Italy and Spain are proof of that. In 80 to 90 percent of the fixtures the winner can be predicted at the start of the season. As regards the Pro**, we can't wait for the Welsh and Scots to get their houses in order, so under these circumstances I think bringing in the best RSA franchises and accompanying TV money is a great idea. Who knows, we might end up with the best rugby league yet!!!

I agree that sadly we have no control over the other teams in the league, and to be honest, it’s hard to see anything more than the odd blip here and there where teams outside of Ireland become competitive.

With regard to the soccer comparison, I agree that there are always have winners and also rans, I just think that the pro whatever has far too many also rans.

Yes, the introduction of the SA teams could be a major boost for the league. We may see the league getting very competitive then, with a number of teams in with a realistic chance of winning the league, or at least make the knockout stages.

[Ruckedtobits]

I hated when we would go to Glasgow or Edinburgh or Swansea or Llanelli back in the day ( Cheika era) with a load of young lads literally thrown together and get absolutely spanked.

I didn’t love (but accepted because of our success) in the Schmidt era where we knew we would throw a game here and there (eg in Connacht) and we would use it to motivate us to peak in a bigger game.

I didn’t love in the MOC era where we played our first team practically every week and played turgid stuff and we would lose to the Dragons home and away within a couple of weeks.

Not sure the league is any worse now than it ever was I just think we have got much better at managing it and the other Irish teams have as well. There were always shite teams in it, there were always average teams in it and there were always the better teams in it now instead of them coming from the different countries they are all from Ireland. We led the way and the other Irish teams are copying our template.

We like to knock ourselves which is very Irish but we are one of the best teams in Europe. Toulouse and Saracens are the only team who have beaten us in 3 years in Europe. That’s not luck. Successive Irish coaches have leaned heavily on Leinster players not because they are wearing blue tinted glasses or are trying to upset Munster and Ulster supporters as they like to believe but because we have produced loads of excellent rugby players. Munster now have some brilliant young lads coming through themselves. Ulster have built a really good team, a team that plays hard and competes. Connacht play a brilliant brand of rugby and are trying to increase their depth which is more limited than the other provinces. Our (Irish) teams are very good at the minute.

Welsh and Scottish teams for whatever reason (lack of effort with the Welsh imo) are struggling at the minute but the quality from the Irish teams makes up for that, for me anyway. Dare I say I enjoy watching the other Irish teams playing every week in addition to Leinster. Long may we be leading the way, if the the other countries want to compete they should try and imitate us but if they can’t be arsed it certainly won’t effect my enjoyment of getting to see our legends or the next young lad off the rank. When we next lose to the Dragons in the RDS, or get hosed over in Glasgow and leinsterfans is going mad can someone resurrect this thread and go yeah but the league is much better now.

+1
That certainly gets closest to my own views. The biggest difference in a decade is the improvement in Leinster squads and players and the corresponding development of the other Irish teams. The dominance in the league is a direct reflection of how hard our players work under the direction of a very astute group of coaches. I can certainly handle having to watch Leinster teams accumulate big wins with varying squad compositions on a regular basis. It certainly beats watching them claw at the ground against Dragons or Treviso.

[Peg Leg]

When the SA's do get to join up, it will interesting to see how they manage their international windows. They'll make hay during the 6N.

Also, the winning is what enable us to keep such a large squad of players motivated, that won't last forever.

[Ruckedtobits]

Various iterations of the Celtic League / Magners / Rabo / Guinness Pro XII /XIV have been running for 20 seasons now. One evaluation of the League's strength or weakness over the entire period can be assessed by the quality of the Coaches of the winning teams.

Wales have won through Llanelli and Ospreys, both multiple winners and well coached by various excellent Coaches including Lyn Jones, Gareth Jenkins, Sean Holly and Wayne Pivac. Scotland through Glasgow Warriors under Gregor Townsend, have won once. Munster under Declan Kidney and Alan Gaffney are multiple winners. Ulster had their sole success under Brian McGloughlin. Connacht had their sole success under Pat Lam.

Certainly Leinster have been the dominant team in the league but with coaches of the calibre of Cullen / Lancaster and Joe Schmidt, this is hardly surprising.

Perhaps however, if there is a flaw in this theory, it is the discovery that one of the winning coaches was Matt O'Connor. Maybe the exception that proves the rule that good coaches win leagues whilst good players just beat opponents.

There have been some good coaches who have been unsuccesful in the Celtic League competitions over the years, but not many. Edinburgh, Dragons, Cardiff and Treviso have been the perennial under-performers. However in any National or international (very rare) league competition for a team field sport, to have 50% of the competiting teams become champions over a 20-year period is evidence of a competitive environment.

Premiership rugby has had only 9 winners since 1987 and only two, Sarries and Exeter, over the past seven seasons. The Top 14 has had only 7 winners in the professional era.

Neither of these competitions are condemned as regularly by the supporters of the different teams and the results in France in particular are heavily weighted in favour of home teams

Facts are not nearly as satisfying as emotions when it comes to writing about the performances of 'your' team.

[munster#1]

Various iterations of the Celtic League / Magners / Rabo / Guinness Pro XII /XIV have been running for 20 seasons now. One evaluation of the League's strength or weakness over the entire period can be assessed by the quality of the Coaches of the winning teams.

Wales have won through Llanelli and Ospreys, both multiple winners and well coached by various excellent Coaches including Lyn Jones, Gareth Jenkins, Sean Holly and Wayne Pivac. Scotland through Glasgow Warriors under Gregor Townsend, have won once. Munster under Declan Kidney and Alan Gaffney are multiple winners. Ulster had their sole success under Brian McGloughlin. Connacht had their sole success under Pat Lam.

Certainly Leinster have been the dominant team in the league but with coaches of the calibre of Cullen / Lancaster and Joe Schmidt, this is hardly surprising.

Perhaps however, if there is a flaw in this theory, it is the discovery that one of the winning coaches was Matt O'Connor. Maybe the exception that proves the rule that good coaches win leagues whilst good players just beat opponents.

There have been some good coaches who have been unsuccesful in the Celtic League competitions over the years, but not many. Edinburgh, Dragons, Cardiff and Treviso have been the perennial under-performers. However in any National or international (very rare) league competition for a team field sport, to have 50% of the competiting teams become champions over a 20-year period is evidence of a competitive environment.

Premiership rugby has had only 9 winners since 1987 and only two, Sarries and Exeter, over the past seven seasons. The Top 14 has had only 7 winners in the professional era.

Neither of these competitions are condemned as regularly by the supporters of the different teams and the results in France in particular are heavily weighted in favour of home teams

Facts are not nearly as satisfying as emotions when it comes to writing about the performances of 'your' team.

How many teams win the competition, or how good a coaching ticket for a given team has, are kind of separate to the main issue with our league.

Leinster dominating a league, although demoralising for other teams, is not what is wrong with the league.

The biggest issue for me is that it is a league that week in week out, is played by severely under strength teams.
A good example of this would be how few games the likes of Murray and Sexton and most other first choice internationals play each season.

Any league where your best players have single digit appearance numbers highlights the quality of the league.

As supporters we will follow our teams no matter who is playing, that is not an issue, and we can still take great joy from it.
But as supporters we also must accept that when we pay to watch our team play, for most games we are watching 2 weakened teams playing each other.
We must accept that at no time in the regular season will we get to see our best team take to the field, and very rarely, if ever will we see an almost full strength team.

I definitely think that this league has merit, it has allowed Leinster to build a formidable squad, thus improving depth at international level.
But it is very short sighted to not see the obvious failings and weaknesses of the league, and even more short sighted to compare the Pro 14 to the like of the premiership or Top 14, and draw a conclusion that the pro 14 is on par.

The PRO 14 is a sub par, development league IMO.
We often hear statistics about how well pro 14 teams perform against there counterparts in the HC, but in reality, the team that is playing in the HC is not the same team that plays in the PRO14.

[Peg Leg]

Various iterations of the Celtic League / Magners / Rabo / Guinness Pro XII /XIV have been running for 20 seasons now. One evaluation of the League's strength or weakness over the entire period can be assessed by the quality of the Coaches of the winning teams.

Wales have won through Llanelli and Ospreys, both multiple winners and well coached by various excellent Coaches including Lyn Jones, Gareth Jenkins, Sean Holly and Wayne Pivac. Scotland through Glasgow Warriors under Gregor Townsend, have won once. Munster under Declan Kidney and Alan Gaffney are multiple winners. Ulster had their sole success under Brian McGloughlin. Connacht had their sole success under Pat Lam.

Certainly Leinster have been the dominant team in the league but with coaches of the calibre of Cullen / Lancaster and Joe Schmidt, this is hardly surprising.

Perhaps however, if there is a flaw in this theory, it is the discovery that one of the winning coaches was Matt O'Connor. Maybe the exception that proves the rule that good coaches win leagues whilst good players just beat opponents.

There have been some good coaches who have been unsuccesful in the Celtic League competitions over the years, but not many. Edinburgh, Dragons, Cardiff and Treviso have been the perennial under-performers. However in any National or international (very rare) league competition for a team field sport, to have 50% of the competiting teams become champions over a 20-year period is evidence of a competitive environment.

Premiership rugby has had only 9 winners since 1987 and only two, Sarries and Exeter, over the past seven seasons. The Top 14 has had only 7 winners in the professional era.

Neither of these competitions are condemned as regularly by the supporters of the different teams and the results in France in particular are heavily weighted in favour of home teams

Facts are not nearly as satisfying as emotions when it comes to writing about the performances of 'your' team.

How many teams win the competition, or how good a coaching ticket for a given team has, are kind of separate to the main issue with our league.

Leinster dominating a league, although demoralising for other teams, is not what is wrong with the league.

The biggest issue for me is that it is a league that week in week out, is played by severely under strength teams.
A good example of this would be how few games the likes of Murray and Sexton and most other first choice internationals play each season.

Any league where your best players have single digit appearance numbers highlights the quality of the league.

As supporters we will follow our teams no matter who is playing, that is not an issue, and we can still take great joy from it.
But as supporters we also must accept that when we pay to watch our team play, for most games we are watching 2 weakened teams playing each other.
We must accept that at no time in the regular season will we get to see our best team take to the field, and very rarely, if ever will we see an almost full strength team.

I definitely think that this league has merit, it has allowed Leinster to build a formidable squad, thus improving depth at international level.
But it is very short sighted to not see the obvious failings and weaknesses of the league, and even more short sighted to compare the Pro 14 to the like of the premiership or Top 14, and draw a conclusion that the pro 14 is on par.

The PRO 14 is a sub par, development league IMO.
We often hear statistics about how well pro 14 teams perform against there counterparts in the HC, but in reality, the team that is playing in the HC is not the same team that plays in the PRO14.

And yet we are still winning the league. This is not our (the irish teams generally) problem to fix, you want it to be competitive then everyone else needs to aim to continually raise their standards.
What Leinster is doing is investing in quality coaching and managing their player roster, we could have Fardy out playing every match this season because we want to get our monies worth, but the reality is J Murphy, R Baird, J Dunne are giving Fardy a run for his money and getting results. They have looked at the standard bearer and are doing everything to in their power to usurp him from the team. The result is the squad improving so the base level is increased further. (This helps particularly when you are losing almost a full match day squad during international windows)
We went through a season where Matt O'Connor played every player every schminute he could get, that didn't improve attendance or our affinity to the league. The league will get better when everyone else stops complaining about self interests and works out a way to topple the current standard bearer, at least that's what we had to do to get to where we are. I think it was the demented mole who posted a link to Eddie Jones talking about his time at the reds, where he bemoaned his own efforts to imitate the successful plays of others and thereafter committed to innovation and trusting his own ideas to lead a team. The burden of responsibility for improving the league is with the league itself and the participating teams.

[munster#1]

Various iterations of the Celtic League / Magners / Rabo / Guinness Pro XII /XIV have been running for 20 seasons now. One evaluation of the League's strength or weakness over the entire period can be assessed by the quality of the Coaches of the winning teams.

Wales have won through Llanelli and Ospreys, both multiple winners and well coached by various excellent Coaches including Lyn Jones, Gareth Jenkins, Sean Holly and Wayne Pivac. Scotland through Glasgow Warriors under Gregor Townsend, have won once. Munster under Declan Kidney and Alan Gaffney are multiple winners. Ulster had their sole success under Brian McGloughlin. Connacht had their sole success under Pat Lam.

Certainly Leinster have been the dominant team in the league but with coaches of the calibre of Cullen / Lancaster and Joe Schmidt, this is hardly surprising.

Perhaps however, if there is a flaw in this theory, it is the discovery that one of the winning coaches was Matt O'Connor. Maybe the exception that proves the rule that good coaches win leagues whilst good players just beat opponents.

There have been some good coaches who have been unsuccesful in the Celtic League competitions over the years, but not many. Edinburgh, Dragons, Cardiff and Treviso have been the perennial under-performers. However in any National or international (very rare) league competition for a team field sport, to have 50% of the competiting teams become champions over a 20-year period is evidence of a competitive environment.

Premiership rugby has had only 9 winners since 1987 and only two, Sarries and Exeter, over the past seven seasons. The Top 14 has had only 7 winners in the professional era.

Neither of these competitions are condemned as regularly by the supporters of the different teams and the results in France in particular are heavily weighted in favour of home teams

Facts are not nearly as satisfying as emotions when it comes to writing about the performances of 'your' team.

How many teams win the competition, or how good a coaching ticket for a given team has, are kind of separate to the main issue with our league.

Leinster dominating a league, although demoralising for other teams, is not what is wrong with the league.

The biggest issue for me is that it is a league that week in week out, is played by severely under strength teams.
A good example of this would be how few games the likes of Murray and Sexton and most other first choice internationals play each season.

Any league where your best players have single digit appearance numbers highlights the quality of the league.

As supporters we will follow our teams no matter who is playing, that is not an issue, and we can still take great joy from it.
But as supporters we also must accept that when we pay to watch our team play, for most games we are watching 2 weakened teams playing each other.
We must accept that at no time in the regular season will we get to see our best team take to the field, and very rarely, if ever will we see an almost full strength team.

I definitely think that this league has merit, it has allowed Leinster to build a formidable squad, thus improving depth at international level.
But it is very short sighted to not see the obvious failings and weaknesses of the league, and even more short sighted to compare the Pro 14 to the like of the premiership or Top 14, and draw a conclusion that the pro 14 is on par.

The PRO 14 is a sub par, development league IMO.
We often hear statistics about how well pro 14 teams perform against there counterparts in the HC, but in reality, the team that is playing in the HC is not the same team that plays in the PRO14.

And yet we are still winning the league. This is not our (the irish teams generally) problem to fix, you want it to be competitive then everyone else needs to aim to continually raise their standards.
What Leinster is doing is investing in quality coaching and managing their player roster, we could have Fardy out playing every match this season because we want to get our monies worth, but the reality is J Murphy, R Baird, J Dunne are giving Fardy a run for his money and getting results. They have looked at the standard bearer and are doing everything to in their power to usurp him from the team. The result is the squad improving so the base level is increased further. (This helps particularly when you are losing almost a full match day squad during international windows)
We went through a season where Matt O'Connor played every player every schminute he could get, that didn't improve attendance or our affinity to the league. The league will get better when everyone else stops complaining about self interests and works out a way to topple the current standard bearer, at least that's what we had to do to get to where we are. I think it was the demented mole who posted a link to Eddie Jones talking about his time at the reds, where he bemoaned his own efforts to imitate the successful plays of others and thereafter committed to innovation and trusting his own ideas to lead a team. The burden of responsibility for improving the league is with the league itself and the participating teams.

Some very good points.

So you are essentially in agreement that the league needs improving.

I fully agree with your points on how it would be improved, and that it is not up to the Irish to fix this.
As you say yourself, Leinster have successfully used this league for development, and I do believe that it is a great tool for development.
It gives a platform for the likes of the players that you listed, along with many more to cut their teeth at a low enough level, to enable them to make the step up to European and International level.

If I was involved with the IRFU I would not see the league as a problem that needs fixing, as an Irish fan I do not think it needs fixing.
But as a Munster fan I would love to see the standard of the league improved to the point that the provinces are required to play stronger teams each week to remain competitive.

I think your points are related to, but separate to the conversation of the standard of the league relative to other leagues.

If all teams followed Leinster’s model then the league would improve, but unfortunately not all teams have the resources or finances that Leinster have, additionally not all coaches would be given enough time to implement the required changes, which would see most teams regress for a number of years.

[OTT]

It’s hard to feel sorry for teams when you see Richard Hibbard walking (to be kind) around a pitch every week at nearly 37 years of age. Gavin Henson another recent recipient of the Pro Whatever free money giveaway. Stick in any lad with a bit of desire or go with a young lad and give him Hibbard’s minutes. If they won’t help themselves it’s hard listening to the voices talking about the disparity in finances.

If you look at our older lads who are currently deemed to be surplus to requirements for the national team like Dev, Benty, Rhys, Dave Kearney they are showing up every week in the league, they are showing the young lads what it means to pull on the jersey, they are leading by example. All cliches that are ringing true. The Welsh teams don’t look like they give a shite, we’ve been there ourselves in the past with lads like Owen Finnegan and Tuqiri, that’s nothing to do with not having any money it’s to do with wasting the money they do have. Good luck to Munster, Ulster and Connacht three other teams who are taking the league seriously like ourselves hopefully we get all 4 in the semi’s.

[leinsterforever]

Maybe it'd make sense to have some of the Irish derbies earlier in the season. Then you'd have more chance of teams taking points off each other, which would keep the play-off race competitive for longer. I know games not requiring much travel make sense around Christmas time, but do you have to have three of them? Could it be two or even one? It was always Munster in Dublin for Leinster before the European Cup kicked off, and I think there used be another inter-pro the week before as well?

[MylesNaGapoleen]

It was always Munster in Dublin for Leinster

*cough*

[ronk]

Leinster are trying to match the European elite clubs. Glasgow had a number of returning internationals the other week and fielded an impressive squad. We're also under orders to produce for Ireland.

With the way they are playing good rugby, winning and developing players very very successfully I don't think it's fair to suggest that they need to change. Its probably not feasible for other sides to replicate that success but it is possible to a degree.

The Cheetahs had been improving and recruiting well. The Italian sides are much improved. The Scots are fairly decent and there's some quality in the Welsh, just not consistency. Cob is have separated out the more professional setups.

[dropkick]

They could do what the scottish soccer league, the SPL, used to do. After Christmas they cut the league in half and more or less made 2 divisions out of it.


There's a lot of benefit to that. Teams would be playing other teams who are at a more similar level so the matches would be more competitive. There's no real benefit to anyone when Zebre plays an Irish province. Not Zebre, not the provinces and not the fans watching.

[blaker]

Regardless of quality or team selection of whatever - the welsh fans hate the league. We can argue why they’re full of ah!t all we want but when one of the 2 main fan bases (no disrespect to Sco Ita SA) havent bought in then there’s an element of hostage situation about it.

[Ruckedtobits]

The performances of Bennetton, Cardiff Blues and even Ulster in defeat to Toulouse give the lie to the substandard Pro**.

Two away wins and a three-try losing bonus point performance against a full strength Toulouse is hardly clear proof that Pro** teams outside Irish are very weak.

Now let's see what the other teams in our league can do.

[Keith]

The performances of Bennetton, Cardiff Blues and even Ulster in defeat to Toulouse give the lie to the substandard Pro**.

Two away wins and a three-try losing bonus point performance against a full strength Toulouse is hardly clear proof that Pro** teams outside Irish are very weak.

Now let's see what the other teams in our league can do.

Extremely impressive win for Benetton, they should surely now reach a European QF for the first time. I don't understand why the Pro 14 is being slated this year when the league has been decimated due to the autumn nations cup. Lets judge it at the end of the year.

[Ruckedtobits]

Scarlets win v Bath, Leinster win v Montpellier, Edinburgh performance against a full-strength La Rochelle, a win for Ospreys, draw for Zebre - not too shabby for our weak league.

Looking at the Leinster selection and our use of players who contributed in thee Pro** games, rather than Autumn Internationals, is clear proof that the League provides excellent competition for top level development. Case closed.

[ronk]

The extent to which the SA teams struggled when they joined the Pro14 is also a really strong indicator of how strong it is.

[Keith]

The extent to which the SA teams struggled when they joined the Pro14 is also a really strong indicator of how strong it is.

We won't play many worse teams than that Montpellier side. The way people go on about the quality of the pro 14 and big up the other leagues you forget just how bad the mid table sides are in the top 14 and premiership. The fact is there is a big gap forming between the elite sides and everyone else.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Not a great weekend for the english premiership so far,

Northampton Saints - lost at home to Bordeaux
Newcastle - lost at home to Cardiff Blues
Leicester - won at home to Brive
Bath - lost at home to Scarlets
Sale - lost away to Toulon
Wasps - won away to Dragons
Bristol - lost at home to clermont
Gloucestor - lost away to Lyon
London Irish - won away to Agen
Worcestor - lost away to Pau
Exeter will probably win at home later today against Glasgow
Quinns - will probably lose away to Munster

12 fixtures - 4 wins for premiership teams.


Despite all the criticism the Pro14 gets, they seem to be holding their own.

12 fixtures - 6 wins* and 1 draw for pro14 teams.
*Assuming Connacht lose and Munster win on Sunday.

[Dave Cahill]

Duhan van der Merwe is leaving Edinburgh to join the sauce scrappers