Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

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The Doc
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by The Doc »

hugonaut wrote:
January 26th, 2021, 9:51 pm
munster#1 wrote:
January 25th, 2021, 2:55 pm
Well after yet another disappointing defeat Munster must evaluate how they can push on to the next level.

In beating Clermont away and being the first team this season to not only keep Leinster to one try, but to not allow them to score 4 or more shows that we can mix it with the best.

One massive positive is that the Munster defence is as strong as it has been for a while.

Munster need to evaluate how they can breakdown a strong defence. How can they turn possession into score on a more regular basis.

One change that I would like to see is Healy being given every opportunity to become first choice and Crowley to get more gametime either at OH or centre.

By no means am I throwing JJ under the bus, I just believe that both Healy and Crowley have a higher ceiling.

Likewise it would be great to see J Wycherley and Salanoa start a few games over the next few weeks.
They're not far off.

I was surprised that Munster didn't attack the Leinster lineout more, and also that their own throw was so iffy. Going into the game they had the best lineout in the league, but we stole and/or spoiled a lot of ball. Our lineout hasn't been good, and not competing on Leinster ball meant that outstanding touch-finders from Haley [x2] and Daly went unrewarded.

I agree with you on Hanrahan. I've been a fan of J.J. since his great campaign for the Irish U20s, but there is a stress fracture there. Munster have lost to Leinster in pretty tight games three times in the last six months and he has missed important place-kicks in all of them, including some absolute sitters. In the first game back the kick he missed [to bring the game to a 27-27 draw] was difficult ... but he had kicked more or less the same kick earlier in the game and the last kick was the only one he missed in the game. It was the biggest pressure kick of the match and he couldn't make it.

He missed two very easy ones in the semi-final – one of which you could have thrown over with your bad hand – and he had another shocking miss in the game just gone. I wouldn't be too harsh on the one that hit the post, that's not a bad kick, just unfortunate. The one from inside the 22 was a dreadful miss though.

Now, he's the same fella who kicked 9/9 against Clermont. It's just one of those things that is difficult to reconcile.

There's no way of saying this without sounding very negative, but I think that too many Munster fans [some of those I've talked to and many more whom I've heard or read] are holding very high expectations of Carbery, which he may struggle to meet. There has always been a lot of talk about him being 'the missing piece of the puzzle'.

He has missed a massive amount of time with an injury, the details of which have never been released. Obviously it's his business if he doesn't want to release that information; there may be very good reasons behind that decision. But logically speaking it has to be a complex injury: lots of people injure ankle ligaments, very few of them spend 60+ weeks out of action with that injury. I don't think he'll be able to just pick up the form he showed against Gloucester over in Kingsholm more than two years ago [and he has only played in five games for Munster since then], but that is how I would imagine a number of Munster fans remember him.

My worries for him would be that his ankle will not allow him the balance and agility that made him such a good runner in the past and, even more pragmatically, that people might think that now he's made it back, that he'll somehow not pick up any more injuries – the sort of belief that he's had a sufficiently dreadful time with this injury that he has used up all his bad luck. Unfortunately that's unlikely. Carbery is a guy who has shipped a lot of injuries in his short career. I wish him the best of fortune, but I've been playing and watching rugby long enough to know that it can be a tough and unforgiving game.

I think Crowley is a huge talent and has the highest ceiling of them all, including Carbery. I would have been pushing him ahead of Healy, but in fairness to Healy he has done everything you could ask of him.
I can't get over the niggling feeling that if Carberry at 10 is the great hope for a team, that there is a fundamental weakness in the strategy - even dating back to his days with us. There are games where having him at 10 is great - but ultimately I think 15 is where he is more effective. And I don't think he's great behind a retreating pack or in a slogfest.

Maybe I'm wrong but think it would be a good idea for Munster to have a clear Plan B
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by dropkick »

Xanthippe wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 1:36 pm
ronk wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 2:39 am
JJ was hyped, and it didn’t do much for his development. Healy is getting a lot of game time but taking on all the big games would be a lot more pressure and expose him more.

I think JvG has the right pace of development there and I’ve criticised him plenty when I thought he was wrong.

Like lineouts and scrums, we sometimes remember only the kicks that miss. In the tightest games there are many moments that swing the game. He made 2 kicks and hit the post with a long kick. It was pretty poor from Munster that a rebound keep in the 22 was converted into a Leinster score with the clock dead.
Exactly

I can't believe there's been so much focus on two missed kicks by JJ and little or no focus on how the contribution, or lack thereof, of the other 22 players affected the result.
It's not the 2 missed kicks. It's the sitters he is missing in big games. Last 3 games to Leinster then there was the drop goal miss in front of the posts against Racing.


Not to sound harsh but he's had his chance and didn't take it. I wouldn't offer him another contract if I was JVG. He isn't within an arses roar of the current Ireland squad which says all you need to know.


Let Healy and Crowley fight it out and hopefully Carbery can come back. Im also doubtful of his long term fitness. There's also Flannery. I don't see the point of keeping JJ. He's not a 12 in his own words and we've an abundance of fullbacks.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by munster#1 »

JJ was pushed into first choice with the early retirement of Tyler and the very lengthy injury to Joey, and to be fair he has done a very good job at holding the fort as the only fit senior out half, Munster would have been lost without him.

It is difficult to say what Munster should do right now.
As mentioned above, JJ is the only fit senior out half.
As such he is required around the squad.
I would like to see Healy and Crowley getting a few more starts, even if it is not at 10. With those 2 players Munster may be in a great position for many more years.

In addition Flannery is still knocking around.

I do reject the claims that Munster have pinned their hopes to Joey and have no plan B, as they have given Healy plenty of exposure over the last 12 months, probably more than any other academy player in Ireland.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by The Doc »

munster#1 wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 2:58 pm
I do reject the claims that Munster have pinned their hopes to Joey and have no plan B, as they have given Healy plenty of exposure over the last 12 months, probably more than any other academy player in Ireland.
Yeah that was me - apologies I didn't state it well. What I mean is that I think Munster would be better off not focussing on the return of Carberry as any sort of solution to the 10 question. I think they should look at Healy - and if you get some games where Carberry suits then great. Or have him at 15 with Healy.

I know he went there with a plan to become the starting 10 and probably the starting 10 for Ireland - I just think he's a better utility squad player.
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by Avenger »

The Doc wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 3:31 pm
I just think he's a better utility squad player.
I agree.

Unfortunately he hasn't really had a run to prove otherwise yet.
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by Logorrhea »

Way to early to be placing all your eggs in the Healy basket. More hype than substance at this stage. Kinda reminds me of the hype around JJ to be honest. Carberry's general health is a worry from an availability point of view so you need experience.

JJ is there, he should stay there. Let the other guys build their game time and see how they develop while you wait for Carberry to come back. As a second choice #10 behind Carberry, JJ is pretty good. Its just Carberry's injury that has exposed him.

Having said all that, the loss to Leinster was down to more than just that kick. Some of the penalties that were given away were criminal. Much more so than the missed kick.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by Fan with smartphone »

I am on board with this and agree with what loghorrea is saying. I remember once commiserating with a goalkeeper after a critical mistake. I was expecting them to be annoyed. They were - with everyone else. It had to get by 14 others to get as far as me was how they compartmentalised. Its not just the other 22 players but their overall strategy too. I think JJ could take a leaf out of my goalkeeper friend’s book.

The easy kick was a really poor error, but Hanrahan has been clutch for Munster a fair few times. Hugo mentions the Clermont game and there have been others, either with the boot or through a running game. There was certainly one European cup game with the clock in the red that he broke down the touchline and created a match winning score. I do think he’s a creative 10. He’s good at finding a gap for a pass and he creates space for others. I’ve watched Munster a lot this season and they have been very good, as has he. But very often that’s not the gameplan they use against better teams. The incessant box kicking and it’s not even the box kicking, but just the mindset of playing not to lose hasn’t worked for them at all against better teams. That’s with various 10s and it’s on van Graan as head coach - it’s hard to imagine Larkham advocating it. Some say they are still in Thomond yet, box kicking and saying shoulda won. Play more and they would have deserved it. They didn’t and they don’t. They died wondering, and not for the first time. Munster always played a forward orientated game, but it was never their style to play so...afraid. If they don’t have a go more they’ll be in the same situation in a few years blaming another 10.

Hanrahan may not make it to be the heir to Sexton at international level, who emerges to take that on is still very up for grabs; but Munster should get behind him and they should back that group. He’s a good foil to their other young 10s, could drop easily into 12 in some games and would suit coming off the bench to chase a game too. I don’t think he, or Healy either, or Carberry suit the gameplan as it was the other night.
Xanthippe wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 1:36 pm
ronk wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 2:39 am
JJ was hyped, and it didn’t do much for his development. Healy is getting a lot of game time but taking on all the big games would be a lot more pressure and expose him more.

I think JvG has the right pace of development there and I’ve criticised him plenty when I thought he was wrong.

Like lineouts and scrums, we sometimes remember only the kicks that miss. In the tightest games there are many moments that swing the game. He made 2 kicks and hit the post with a long kick. It was pretty poor from Munster that a rebound keep in the 22 was converted into a Leinster score with the clock dead.
Exactly

I can't believe there's been so much focus on two missed kicks by JJ and little or no focus on how the contribution, or lack thereof, of the other 22 players affected the result.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by munster#1 »

The Doc wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 3:31 pm
munster#1 wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 2:58 pm
I do reject the claims that Munster have pinned their hopes to Joey and have no plan B, as they have given Healy plenty of exposure over the last 12 months, probably more than any other academy player in Ireland.
Yeah that was me - apologies I didn't state it well. What I mean is that I think Munster would be better off not focussing on the return of Carberry as any sort of solution to the 10 question. I think they should look at Healy - and if you get some games where Carberry suits then great. Or have him at 15 with Healy.

I know he went there with a plan to become the starting 10 and probably the starting 10 for Ireland - I just think he's a better utility squad player.
On this, I hope I am wrong, but you have to have a feeling that Joey is just one of those unfortunate players who’s career will be blighted with injuries.

I know his ankle injury was as a result of his leg being caught as opposed to a soft tissue issue, and it would be poor to associate this with him being injury prone, but he has a history of being out injured fairly often.

This would support your view that Munster should plan for not having Joey back, and take it as a positive if they do.
Without being around the camp I can’t say for definite what Munster’s thoughts are, but it does look like they are grooming Healy to be a long term option at 10.

Saying all that, I do hope that Joey comes back all guns blazing, as he looks to be a great option for a number of years for Munster and Ireland.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by blockhead »

Rumour knocking about that CJ could be on his way to France or even RSA.
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by munster#1 »

blockhead wrote:
January 28th, 2021, 3:21 pm
Rumour knocking about that CJ could be on his way to France or even RSA.
There will be plenty of rumours floating around over the next few weeks.

CJ, like most player, will be asked to take a significant pay drop.
Given that he has financial responsibilities he would be foolish not to shop around. His worth would be pretty high I’d imagine.
He is rarely injured and is a player that plays at a high level for 80 mins of every game.

If he does go, then I wish him the best.

The one thing we can be sure of is that there will be some shock departures.
Not everyone can afford to take the pay drop, and others will see this as an opportunity to experience life in another location.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by dropkick »

munster#1 wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 4:54 pm
The Doc wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 3:31 pm
munster#1 wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 2:58 pm
I do reject the claims that Munster have pinned their hopes to Joey and have no plan B, as they have given Healy plenty of exposure over the last 12 months, probably more than any other academy player in Ireland.
Yeah that was me - apologies I didn't state it well. What I mean is that I think Munster would be better off not focussing on the return of Carberry as any sort of solution to the 10 question. I think they should look at Healy - and if you get some games where Carberry suits then great. Or have him at 15 with Healy.

I know he went there with a plan to become the starting 10 and probably the starting 10 for Ireland - I just think he's a better utility squad player.
On this, I hope I am wrong, but you have to have a feeling that Joey is just one of those unfortunate players who’s career will be blighted with injuries.

I know his ankle injury was as a result of his leg being caught as opposed to a soft tissue issue, and it would be poor to associate this with him being injury prone, but he has a history of being out injured fairly often.

This would support your view that Munster should plan for not having Joey back, and take it as a positive if they do.
Without being around the camp I can’t say for definite what Munster’s thoughts are, but it does look like they are grooming Healy to be a long term option at 10.

Saying all that, I do hope that Joey comes back all guns blazing, as he looks to be a great option for a number of years for Munster and Ireland.

I remember Earls being injured a lot during his mid 20s. He said he slimmed down and thst stopped him being so injury prone.


Maybe Carbery should (or is doing) the same. Slim down a stone or so and it might make a big difference.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by mildlyinterested »

dropkick wrote:
January 28th, 2021, 7:13 pm
munster#1 wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 4:54 pm
The Doc wrote:
January 27th, 2021, 3:31 pm


Yeah that was me - apologies I didn't state it well. What I mean is that I think Munster would be better off not focussing on the return of Carberry as any sort of solution to the 10 question. I think they should look at Healy - and if you get some games where Carberry suits then great. Or have him at 15 with Healy.

I know he went there with a plan to become the starting 10 and probably the starting 10 for Ireland - I just think he's a better utility squad player.
On this, I hope I am wrong, but you have to have a feeling that Joey is just one of those unfortunate players who’s career will be blighted with injuries.

I know his ankle injury was as a result of his leg being caught as opposed to a soft tissue issue, and it would be poor to associate this with him being injury prone, but he has a history of being out injured fairly often.

This would support your view that Munster should plan for not having Joey back, and take it as a positive if they do.
Without being around the camp I can’t say for definite what Munster’s thoughts are, but it does look like they are grooming Healy to be a long term option at 10.

Saying all that, I do hope that Joey comes back all guns blazing, as he looks to be a great option for a number of years for Munster and Ireland.

I remember Earls being injured a lot during his mid 20s. He said he slimmed down and thst stopped him being so injury prone.


Maybe Carbery should (or is doing) the same. Slim down a stone or so and it might make a big difference.
A stone? Have you seen how slim Carbery is? :lol:

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by Morf »

I sat beside Carbery at an Ireland game.

He's the only pro rugby player I've been close to who didn't look bigger in person that you expect them to be.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

Morf wrote:
January 28th, 2021, 10:02 pm
I sat beside Carbery at an Ireland game.

He's the only pro rugby player I've been close to who didn't look bigger in person that you expect them to be.
Yup, he wouldn’t be the biggest of units

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by munster#1 »

Munster team to play Treviso.

Munster: Mike Haley; Liam Coombes, Dan Goggin, Rory Scannell, Darren Sweetnam; Ben Healy, Nick McCarthy; Josh Wycherley, Niall Scannell, Roman Salanoa; Fineen Wycherley, Billy Holland (C); Jack O’Donoghue, Chris Cloete, Gavin Coombes.

Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, Stephen Archer, Thomas Ahern, Tommy O’Donnell, Paddy Patterson, JJ Hanrahan, Damian de Allende.

Not sure what to make of it really.
Great to see the 2 young props getting another game.
Healy starting is a big positive, as is L Coombes getting another run out.

I really think Munster are missing a trick not getting Crowley on the field.
I would love to see him get games like these even if it is playing at 12.

G Coombes being restored to 8 is a good move, and having JOD and Cloete either side of him provides Munster with a solid and balanced backrow.

Hopefully Ahern gets a decent run, he has been very impressive any time he has played, and will only improve.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by blockhead »

4 Leinster guys in that 23, none of them Conway, Carberry or Beirne. 8)
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by Peg Leg »

munster#1 wrote:
January 29th, 2021, 12:38 pm
Munster team to play Treviso.

Munster: Mike Haley; Liam Coombes, Dan Goggin, Rory Scannell, Darren Sweetnam; Ben Healy, Nick McCarthy; Josh Wycherley, Niall Scannell, Roman Salanoa; Fineen Wycherley, Billy Holland (C); Jack O’Donoghue, Chris Cloete, Gavin Coombes.

Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, Stephen Archer, Thomas Ahern, Tommy O’Donnell, Paddy Patterson, JJ Hanrahan, Damian de Allende.

Not sure what to make of it really.
Great to see the 2 young props getting another game.
Healy starting is a big positive, as is L Coombes getting another run out.

I really think Munster are missing a trick not getting Crowley on the field.
I would love to see him get games like these even if it is playing at 12.

G Coombes being restored to 8 is a good move, and having JOD and Cloete either side of him provides Munster with a solid and balanced backrow.

Hopefully Ahern gets a decent run, he has been very impressive any time he has played, and will only improve.
Yeah, agree RE: Crowley. This is a free roll of the dice, Munster 11 pts clear.
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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by LeinsterLeader »

blockhead wrote:
January 29th, 2021, 12:45 pm
4 Leinster guys in that 23, none of them Conway, Carberry or Beirne. 8)
The more things change ........ :lol:

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by mildlyinterested »

Be interested to see how PP gets on off the bench.

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Re: Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

Post by munster#1 »

Peg Leg wrote:
January 29th, 2021, 2:38 pm
munster#1 wrote:
January 29th, 2021, 12:38 pm
Munster team to play Treviso.

Munster: Mike Haley; Liam Coombes, Dan Goggin, Rory Scannell, Darren Sweetnam; Ben Healy, Nick McCarthy; Josh Wycherley, Niall Scannell, Roman Salanoa; Fineen Wycherley, Billy Holland (C); Jack O’Donoghue, Chris Cloete, Gavin Coombes.

Replacements: Kevin O’Byrne, Jeremy Loughman, Stephen Archer, Thomas Ahern, Tommy O’Donnell, Paddy Patterson, JJ Hanrahan, Damian de Allende.

Not sure what to make of it really.
Great to see the 2 young props getting another game.
Healy starting is a big positive, as is L Coombes getting another run out.

I really think Munster are missing a trick not getting Crowley on the field.
I would love to see him get games like these even if it is playing at 12.

G Coombes being restored to 8 is a good move, and having JOD and Cloete either side of him provides Munster with a solid and balanced backrow.

Hopefully Ahern gets a decent run, he has been very impressive any time he has played, and will only improve.
Yeah, agree RE: Crowley. This is a free roll of the dice, Munster 11 pts clear.
I understand why he is not starting at 10, because Healy needs the minutes, and I understand that it probably isn’t a great idea to go into any game with 3 academy halfbacks in your squad, but I think Munster should be looking to get Crowley on to the field as often as possible even if he is out of position.

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