Munster Rugby - Semi Conscious, the Series Finale??? - 2020/21

[munster#1]

Interesting to hear that Healy is being sought after by Glasgow. It shows just how far he has come over the last few weeks.
Great move by Glasgow, at a good time. With a severe lack of cash, the IRFU have already indicated that they expect players to be playing abroad next season.

The IRFU have around 80 contracts coming up for renewal in the next 12 months, which equates to a lot of cash.
If them there are around 8 centrally contracted players.

Given the age profile and the lack of cash, it is not too unlikely given their age, that POM, Earls, Healy and Sexton will not have their contracts renewed. That would be a fairly significant saving for the IRFU, probably in the region of 1.5 - 1.8 million a year.

It would definitely make sense for the IRFU to enforce the provinces to reduce their squad sizes over the next 2 years, so we may also see a good number of non international players moving on.

The sad reality is that the IRFU are in a bad financial position, which is likely to only get worse over the next 12 months.
Until we start seeing full stadiums again, then we are in trouble. Even 50% full stadiums would likely see each province make a loss.

If this means players like Ben Healy moving on it would be upsetting, but completely understandable.

[ronk]

You shouldn’t lose an academy player who is breaking into the squad and getting game time, not to save money.

There are other ways to cut budget, top of the list would be doing deals to get de Allende and Synman off the books.

They won’t save anything anyway as they’d need to replace him with someone more expensive.

[Dave Cahill]

Glasgow Warriors have made an approach for Munster's scottish qualified out half, Ben Healy

If the situation was reversed Munster would do the same.

Suppose his agent has earned his keep. Have to expect Healy was due promotion anyway but this will help. With the current depth situation and the fact that Healy is competing for the starting jersey it would make sense for Munster to open their wallets unless they have an incoming signing or prefer other academy lads.

It's unfortunate timing from/for Healy/Glasgow, coming as it does the day of Nucifora's annual state of the nation. Normally I'd be critical of the union for allowing contracts to lapse into a pre free agency situation, but this season they have little choice. The SRU have been after Healy for some time and perhaps they see a chance to strike while the iron is hot. A combination of a reduced number of contracts available in Ireland and a clearer considerably less populated path to the international team in Scotland would give the player pause for thought

[munster#1]

I would be very surprised if Healy does go. He is getting loads of gametime, and is pretty close to being considered first choice outhalf, which will invariably put him in the shop window for international caps.

If he were a few years into his career, I could see caps being the reason that he might leave, but at this stage I do not think that that would be the reason.

The only reason that I believe that he will leave will be down to finances. I haven’t seen the offer from Glasgow, but I doubt it is a massive deal.
Munster and the IRFU will not have to match whatever his is being offered, but should offer him a senior deal at the expense of one or more senior squad members, and get him into Ireland camps on a regular basis.

Talks of getting rid of DeAllande and RJ are a bit stupid as their wages are reported to be financed by private money which is outside of the Munster salary pot.
Likelihood is that the same funds would be withdrawn once the players contracts are cancelled.
The bigger issue would be the Munster and therefore the IRFU would have to foot the compensation bill, which would have a significant impact.


I can not tell the future, but I think it is a very reasonable expectation that we will see a few quality players leave our shores along with a few promising players.
This time around the IRFU will be fighting for survival rather than playing hardball.
They will have a limited pot, and I hope that is used wisely.
As an example, letting go sexton would probably allow the IRFU to retain 5 promising players.

[tomthefan]

Judging by Munster's luck with 10s since ROG retired, this would be just typical.
But unless he has a great, previously unmanifested, grá for Scotland, it's hard to see Glasgow being a destination of choice for Healy.
Even Glasgow's international players who get the chance tend to want to get away to England or France.
Time will tell anyway. What's the latest on Carbery's recuperation, I wonder?

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Far too early for Healy to move but I can understand why he'd leak this now. With JJ not really being good enough and the uncertainty over Joey's future he's in a very strong position to demand a bigger contract than the IRFU were expecting him to accept. He's a good player but his talent doesn't demand that he deserves a big contract. The lack of options does make him valuable though and I think this tactic will pay off.

Have to say I think JVG has learned a lot of lessons from the end of last season. It looks to me as if his selections are more progressive and that Larkham has had a much bigger say in how they've been playing. I had been very critical of him but I think they're a very different beast right now. It's not perfect (Archer starting last night for example) and it remains to be seen if he'll still trust Larkham when it comes to knockout games but they're on the right track and he deserves credit for changing things.

Good to see Nick McCarthy play well last night, still think he can have a big future if the coaches back him, but the impact Casey had in his five minutes on the pitch was really impressive. Ahern looked great already and they seem to know how to use DDA properly now. Snyman and Hodnett will make them a serious force when they eventually return from injury, and if Joey can get back and play anything like his best then they really will have a shot at some silverware.

[dropkick]

I don't blame Healy for playing his scottish card. It might be worth a few bob over his next contract so why not do it. It's up to munster to make the next move.


They need to be careful though. It's not only losing a player but it's giving Scotland a player who is a potential match winner. That would be a double blow potentially.


As for the match. Zebre were so poor it hardly matters what happened. It was a training run really. Josh Wycherley looked very good again but how good was the Zebre scrum.


It was a sight seeing Ahern galloping down the field. Should have passed it but we'll cut him some slack on his first start. JJ was superb but it was Zebre. Coombes taken off early so maybe he's in line to start against Quins.

[Ruckedtobits]

The rating that some Munster fans and media have given Ben Healy thus far is way beyond anything his performances have warranted to date this season. The same commentators are the ones who have consistently asserted that the competition within the Pro 12/14 /16 is below par.

In last Season's U.20 6N competition, where the competitive standard was far more even, Jack Crowley looked a better prospect than Healy. Ben Healy undoubtedly has a more robust physique than Crowley and has established a good parnership with Chris Casey. His place kicking has been an excellent standard but his line kicking, notably from penalties, has not been consistent.

When Healy has guided Munster through a few rounds of European Pool games and demonstrated his control and direction through a round of interprovincials, he (and his agent) will have adequate justification to pressure Munster and the IRFU to open the cheque book wider than they had intended.

The timing of the disclosure of the Glasgow approach is astute and indicative of an agent who understands the pressure that public opinion and media headlines can exert in the IRFU Committee. The Vice President, a Cork Con man who is not shy, will make his case to Nucifora and behind the scenes will ensure that the arguments are exaggerated to whatever level is required. The departure of Tom Grace will mean that a new Treasurer can be pressurised in a manner that might not have happened during his tenure.

However, the reality remains, Healy has done little to date to put him within the top half dozen out-halves in Irish rugby - Sexton, Carty, Burns, Byrne R, Byrne H, Madigan - and there's but rumour to date that he'll oust JJ Hanrahan as starting outhalf for his Province in the forthcoming European fixtures.

Time will tell and Ben Healy may well justify the hype. But thus far, nothing has warranted any precipitate action by Munster or the IRFU.

[wixfjord]

Healy has done the same if not more than H Byrne has this season. If there was talk of him moving there'd be uproar on here.

[dropkick]

The rating that some Munster fans and media have given Ben Healy thus far is way beyond anything his performances have warranted to date this season. The same commentators are the ones who have consistently asserted that the competition within the Pro 12/14 /16 is below par.

In last Season's U.20 6N competition, where the competitive standard was far more even, Jack Crowley looked a better prospect than Healy. Ben Healy undoubtedly has a more robust physique than Crowley and has established a good parnership with Chris Casey. His place kicking has been an excellent standard but his line kicking, notably from penalties, has not been consistent.

When Healy has guided Munster through a few rounds of European Pool games and demonstrated his control and direction through a round of interprovincials, he (and his agent) will have adequate justification to pressure Munster and the IRFU to open the cheque book wider than they had intended.

The timing of the disclosure of the Glasgow approach is astute and indicative of an agent who understands the pressure that public opinion and media headlines can exert in the IRFU Committee. The Vice President, a Cork Con man who is not shy, will make his case to Nucifora and behind the scenes will ensure that the arguments are exaggerated to whatever level is required. The departure of Tom Grace will mean that a new Treasurer can be pressurised in a manner that might not have happened during his tenure.

However, the reality remains, Healy has done little to date to put him within the top half dozen out-halves in Irish rugby - Sexton, Carty, Burns, Byrne R, Byrne H, Madigan - and there's but rumour to date that he'll oust JJ Hanrahan as starting outhalf for his Province in the forthcoming European fixtures.

Time will tell and Ben Healy may well justify the hype. But thus far, nothing has warranted any precipitate action by Munster or the IRFU.

You can still stand out in the pro14 and the first 2 rounds were against Scarlets and Edinburgh's strongest available teams. Even though some opposition are poor you can see players standing out like Coetzee, Cooney, Jimmy OB, Coombes etc.


Healy is a good goal kicker and seems to be cool under pressure, good passer, he is big for a 10, can kick the ball a long distance etc. He's had some inconsistencies kicking to touch alright but that has mainly been in windy weather.


He should start against Quins. Like most teams these days Quins will be looking to kick a lot and if they want a game of kick tennis then Healy will be making a lot more yardage on his kicks than JJ.


It doesn't mean he'll be a great international player but he is one of those who has potential.

[munster#1]

Anyone that has watched Munster over the last few weeks can see the promise that Healy has.
That is why so many pundits and journalists are talking about him.

He controls games really well, he has a massive boot on him, is a consistent place kicker, is a good ball carrier, and he is an asset in defence.

He is not the completed article, he is an academy out half, in his first season of getting regular gametime, but only a fool would not recognise the potential of this player.
There are many players who do not fulfil their potential, but right now he is a player who must be backed.

I personally think that the IRFU should include a senior contract for him within their budget, especially when you see just how poor most of the Irish options ahead of him are.

[Dave Cahill]

You can still stand out in the pro14 and the first 2 rounds were against Scarlets and Edinburgh's strongest available teams. Even though some opposition are poor you can see players standing out like Coetzee, Cooney, Jimmy OB, Coombes etc.


Healy is a good goal kicker and seems to be cool under pressure, good passer, he is big for a 10, can kick the ball a long distance etc. He's had some inconsistencies kicking to touch alright but that has mainly been in windy weather.


He should start against Quins. Like most teams these days Quins will be looking to kick a lot and if they want a game of kick tennis then Healy will be making a lot more yardage on his kicks than JJ.


It doesn't mean he'll be a great international player but he is one of those who has potential.

The guy has played 12 minutes of European Rugby
The guy has never played an inter-pro
The guy has started 4 senior games - all in this (of questionable value thus far) season
The guy has started one 6 Nations under-20 game

He might be the next Ronan O'Gara. Or, he might be the next Jeremy Staunton. Time will tell, but it isn't talking yet. As you say, he has potential, but thats it. He's nowhere near the Irish team just yet, and it remains to be seen if Van Graan - a fairly conservative selector - will trust him to start in Europe.

[dropkick]

You can still stand out in the pro14 and the first 2 rounds were against Scarlets and Edinburgh's strongest available teams. Even though some opposition are poor you can see players standing out like Coetzee, Cooney, Jimmy OB, Coombes etc.


Healy is a good goal kicker and seems to be cool under pressure, good passer, he is big for a 10, can kick the ball a long distance etc. He's had some inconsistencies kicking to touch alright but that has mainly been in windy weather.


He should start against Quins. Like most teams these days Quins will be looking to kick a lot and if they want a game of kick tennis then Healy will be making a lot more yardage on his kicks than JJ.


It doesn't mean he'll be a great international player but he is one of those who has potential.

The guy has played 12 minutes of European Rugby
The guy has never played an inter-pro
The guy has started 4 senior games - all in this (of questionable value thus far) season
The guy has started one 6 Nations under-20 game

He might be the next Ronan O'Gara. Or, he might be the next Jeremy Staunton. Time will tell, but it isn't talking yet. As you say, he has potential, but thats it. He's nowhere near the Irish team just yet, and it remains to be seen if Van Graan - a fairly conservative selector - will trust him to start in Europe.

How much rugby did James Ryan play for Leinster before his first cap. It's possible to judge a player before he has stepped up a level. That's all I and others like the Scots are doing with Healy. I agree he has to keep proving himself but he's on the right track.


Harry Byrne hasn't proven himself at higher levels either. He plays in the easiest out half slot in europe but he's training with ireland at the moment.

[munster#1]

You can still stand out in the pro14 and the first 2 rounds were against Scarlets and Edinburgh's strongest available teams. Even though some opposition are poor you can see players standing out like Coetzee, Cooney, Jimmy OB, Coombes etc.


Healy is a good goal kicker and seems to be cool under pressure, good passer, he is big for a 10, can kick the ball a long distance etc. He's had some inconsistencies kicking to touch alright but that has mainly been in windy weather.


He should start against Quins. Like most teams these days Quins will be looking to kick a lot and if they want a game of kick tennis then Healy will be making a lot more yardage on his kicks than JJ.


It doesn't mean he'll be a great international player but he is one of those who has potential.

The guy has played 12 minutes of European Rugby
The guy has never played an inter-pro
The guy has started 4 senior games - all in this (of questionable value thus far) season
The guy has started one 6 Nations under-20 game

He might be the next Ronan O'Gara. Or, he might be the next Jeremy Staunton. Time will tell, but it isn't talking yet. As you say, he has potential, but thats it. He's nowhere near the Irish team just yet, and it remains to be seen if Van Graan - a fairly conservative selector - will trust him to start in Europe.

How much rugby did James Ryan play for Leinster before his first cap. It's possible to judge a player before he has stepped up a level. That's all I and others like the Scots are doing with Healy. I agree he has to keep proving himself but he's on the right track.


Harry Byrne hasn't proven himself at higher levels either. He plays in the easiest out half slot in europe but he's training with ireland at the moment.

In fairness, I think that Healy’s value is seen by the majority of rugby fans.
Most people I meet or talk to at the moment, and not just Munster fans, are very excited to see how Casey and Healy develop.

At the start of the season I would have hoped that Crowley would have been given the games that Healy has, but thankfully Healy has proven me wrong.

Nobody has claimed that Healy is the finished product, but injury permitted he will see plenty of minutes in interpros and HC games this season, and will likely be a much much better player by the end of the season.
These opportunities will likely see him leapfrog H Byrne as Byrne’s minutes will be greatly reduced with his brother and Sexton back in blue.

[munster#1]

I think the bigger question will be how the current financial crisis will effect the provinces.
I think a deal will be agreed with Healy, as it is unlikely to break the bank, but which players will not be getting a contract?

Munster have already significantly reduced their squad size, which currently sits at 43 senior players.
They also seem to be actively reducing the number of academy players.

How much more reduction can Munster do and still remain competitive.
Looking at the current squad, there doesn’t seem to be too much fat to cut.

Nucifora indicated that injury profile will be considered. Does that mean that Carberry is in trouble, Cloete likewise.
If we look at age profile, then I could see Holland moving on, but outside of that there isn’t really anyone else IMO.

Earls will likely lose his central contract, which may put Munster in a difficult position.
Likewise POM may lose his central contract, that is 2 large wages having to be covered by a small pot.

We are not just competing with other clubs for these players anymore. With limited resources we are likely to see a big impact on the make up of our squad.

Of course the same can be said for each of the provinces, with Leinster likely to have to make big decisions on players.

[sunshiner1]

I could definitely see Cloete going with an emphasis put on IQ players going forward for all provinces.

[dropkick]

I think the bigger question will be how the current financial crisis will effect the provinces.
I think a deal will be agreed with Healy, as it is unlikely to break the bank, but which players will not be getting a contract?

Munster have already significantly reduced their squad size, which currently sits at 43 senior players.
They also seem to be actively reducing the number of academy players.

How much more reduction can Munster do and still remain competitive.
Looking at the current squad, there doesn’t seem to be too much fat to cut.

Nucifora indicated that injury profile will be considered. Does that mean that Carberry is in trouble, Cloete likewise.
If we look at age profile, then I could see Holland moving on, but outside of that there isn’t really anyone else IMO.

Earls will likely lose his central contract, which may put Munster in a difficult position.
Likewise POM may lose his central contract, that is 2 large wages having to be covered by a small pot.

We are not just competing with other clubs for these players anymore. With limited resources we are likely to see a big impact on the make up of our squad.

Of course the same can be said for each of the provinces, with Leinster likely to have to make big decisions on players.

Yeah I don't think too many players will leave but they'll have to take a pay cut. If the English and French clubs are in financial struggle then they won't have too much power in tempting players.


Looking at the squad I'm guessing Holland, TOD, Marshall and maybe Haley might be in the danger zone depending if their contracts are up. One of the loose heads also. Loughman or LOC. There might also be one or two big names like POM. I'm not saying all those will be leaving but they're the types who are most likely.


Sunshiner1, Cloete is contracted until 2022. He got a 3 year contract a while back.

[munster#1]

I think the bigger question will be how the current financial crisis will effect the provinces.
I think a deal will be agreed with Healy, as it is unlikely to break the bank, but which players will not be getting a contract?

Munster have already significantly reduced their squad size, which currently sits at 43 senior players.
They also seem to be actively reducing the number of academy players.

How much more reduction can Munster do and still remain competitive.
Looking at the current squad, there doesn’t seem to be too much fat to cut.

Nucifora indicated that injury profile will be considered. Does that mean that Carberry is in trouble, Cloete likewise.
If we look at age profile, then I could see Holland moving on, but outside of that there isn’t really anyone else IMO.

Earls will likely lose his central contract, which may put Munster in a difficult position.
Likewise POM may lose his central contract, that is 2 large wages having to be covered by a small pot.

We are not just competing with other clubs for these players anymore. With limited resources we are likely to see a big impact on the make up of our squad.

Of course the same can be said for each of the provinces, with Leinster likely to have to make big decisions on players.

Yeah I don't think too many players will leave but they'll have to take a pay cut. If the English and French clubs are in financial struggle then they won't have too much power in tempting players.


Looking at the squad I'm guessing Holland, TOD, Marshall and maybe Haley might be in the danger zone depending if their contracts are up. One of the loose heads also. Loughman or LOC. There might also be one or two big names like POM. I'm not saying all those will be leaving but they're the types who are most likely.


Sunshiner1, Cloete is contracted until 2022. He got a 3 year contract a while back.

I was thinking more along the lines of certain players not been offered contracts rather than being offered reduced contracts.

I do think that Holland will fall into this category, and I had forgotten about TOD, which I agree with you on, as much as I like him.

The age profile of killer and Cronin may be a saving grace for LOC and Loughman.

With POM and Earls, I think it will come down to getting a central contract or not. If both do not have their contracts renewed, then I’m not sure Munster would be in a position to take on that expense, and looking at the Irish squad, I can’t see any Munster player taking their positions on central contracts.
Given that both have young families, and would be very attractive players for any French team, we may see one or both leaving.

I hope it’s just a case of me looking at the negative side, but I just can’t see how the IRFU can sustain so many players given the current major reduction in income.

[Ruckedtobits]

Many posters appear to be unaware of the restrictions on French Clubs this season (and next) in relation to the number of French developed and eligible players in their Squads.

In reality there will be minimal investment in overseas players in the short term.

[ronk]

Munster went to market pre COVID at full price, and then didn’t trim their squad in response. I’m sceptical of the rumours of an anonymous donor, so you’d have to think there’s severe pressure to make cuts.

Age, injury record and probably relatively high salary would put TOD top of the list. It would have been hard to justify keeping him anyway. I don’t know who else is up for renewal, Earls I think, but the worst thing Munster could do is eat the future, there are some good cheap young lads coming through. They should do more rather than less. I’m thinking Cronin and Archer, maybe Kleyn.

If they decide to cull the academy instead, I’d happily take Ahern and probably Wycherley.