Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

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wixfjord
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

blockhead wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
blockhead wrote:If Exeter get a home QF next weekend as expected, they will be the 1st English team (apart from Saracens) to do so in 4 seasons.
That's some stat.

And it proves the old adage "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." because the Premiership is the best league in the world since it has relegation.
And the Pro14 is sh!t because it dosen't.
A there is no debate about that, apparently.
Or you could look at that another way and say it's emblematic of the Pro14 team's (certainly Irish team's) ability to target European games because the league they play in is less competitive.

(I don't think anyone is arguing the top 4-5 teams in the Premiership are way better than the top 4-5 teams in the Pro14, but rather that the threat of relegation creates different priorities and means there's more riding on each individual game..)
AIL Div 2B- Only 10pts separate 1st from 7th after 10 games. Now that is a competitive league, standards are questionable but competitive? Absolutely!
Competitive does not mean good, just that the teams are about the same standard (apart from the top 2 in Prems case).
Chiefs, Sale, Glocks and Saints are not thinking of relegation. They're thinking of making the play-offs, just like the Irish teams in the pro14.
Once again, I'm not saying the Premiership is better, just that on average every game is more meaningful and has more riding on it than in the Pro14 because of relegation.

The sides you mentioned might not be thinking of relegation, but the teams they are playing are. That's the difference with the Pro14. And that's partly why Pro14 sides can prioritise Europe more than the English sides.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

Oldschool wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
blockhead wrote:If Exeter get a home QF next weekend as expected, they will be the 1st English team (apart from Saracens) to do so in 4 seasons.
That's some stat.

And it proves the old adage "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." because the Premiership is the best league in the world since it has relegation.
And the Pro14 is sh!t because it dosen't.
A there is no debate about that, apparently.
Or you could look at that another way and say it's emblematic of the Pro14 team's (certainly Irish team's) ability to target European games because the league they play in is less competitive.

(I don't think anyone is arguing the top 4-5 teams in the Premiership are way better than the top 4-5 teams in the Pro14, but rather that the threat of relegation creates different priorities and means there's more riding on each individual game..)
That only applies to the teams at the bottom of the league because they are just not good enough.
Saracens won't be relegated this season because they are good enough to avoid relegation.
They'll probably even manage to qualify for next season's HCC.
Which fact tells us that the general standard of the PRL is pretty poor.
No, it actually impacts the whole league, because unlike in the Pro14 where teams like Dragons, Kings etc can switch off because they've nothing to play for, with relegation involved that doesn't happen in England to the same extent.

Now again, the top 4-5 sides in the Pro14 are as good if not better than the corresponding sides in the UK, but clearly the Pro14 sides have at least a small advantage here in that they often coming up against teams without the huge motivation of avoiding a trap door, so there's less riding on these games.

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johng
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by johng »

The difference is that when Exeter (who are not thinking about relegation) go out v Worcester they get a harder game than we do v Zebre or Dragons. Because Zebre and Dragons don't have relegation to motivate them.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by johng »

Ah. He made that point while I was writing. :)

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

johng wrote:The difference is that when Exeter (who are not thinking about relegation) go out v Worcester they get a harder game than we do v Zebre or Dragons. Because Zebre and Dragons don't have relegation to motivate them.

Yep that's clearer than the way I put it!

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by Oldschool »

Lads while I wouldn't dispute that relegation might add a slight degree of difficulty I really think you are confusing rugby with soccer where I think I read that 1-0 is the most common result etc etc.
The scoring system in rugby is far more reflective of a teams dominance in general.
The conference system is competitive and will make the Pro14 much more competitive in the future with one rider.
That the Welsh teams get the finger out.
Simply put the Pro14 has a higher ceiling than the PRL.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

Yup, and you'll still have more meaningful games where both sides are competing for something on average in the PRL simply because of relegation.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to ROG, DOC, Madigan or any of the Irish guys who have said the same thing.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by Oldschool »

wixfjord wrote:Yup, and you'll still have more meaningful games where both sides are competing for something on average in the PRL simply because of relegation.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to ROG, DOC, Madigan or any of the Irish guys who have said the same thing.
I'd take anything a player would say about how good their employer is with a large dose of salt. It's their job to promote club/PRL, might even be in their contract.
Relegation despite all the benefits attributed to it doesn't seem to be having the desired affect on the financial success of the PRL.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

Oldschool wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Yup, and you'll still have more meaningful games where both sides are competing for something on average in the PRL simply because of relegation.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to ROG, DOC, Madigan or any of the Irish guys who have said the same thing.
I'd take anything a player would say about how good their employer is with a large dose of salt. It's their job to promote club/PRL, might even be in their contract.
Relegation despite all the benefits attributed to it doesn't seem to be having the desired affect on the financial success of the PRL.
Well firstly the PRL doesn't/didn't employ those players.

But secondly and more importantly they actually weren't talking about how good the league was. What they each said was that the threat or relegation means teams play differently and are less incentivised to take risks because there's more pressure on every game. So pretty much the opposite.

Once again (and for at least the third time now), I'm not saying relegation is good or bad for the quality of rugby or 'financial success'.

My point is that it makes the league (and each game) more competitive, which in turn means English clubs can't afford to target European games the same as Pro14 (and particularly Irish) sides can.

It's a simple, in my view unarguable point, and of all the complaints English sides have, one of the fairer ones.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by blockhead »

wixfjord wrote: Well firstly the PRL doesn't/didn't employ those players.
But secondly and more importantly they actually weren't talking about how good the league was. What they each said was that the threat or relegation means teams play differently and are less incentivised to take risks because there's more pressure on every game. So pretty much the opposite.

Once again (and for at least the third time now), I'm not saying relegation is good or bad for the quality of rugby or 'financial success'.

My point is that it makes the league (and each game) more competitive, which in turn means English clubs can't afford to target European games the same as Pro14 (and particularly Irish) sides can.

It's a simple, in my view unarguable point, and of all the complaints English sides have, one of the fairer ones.
Unarguable point eh?
But was it not the case of some years back that the same Premiership cheerleaders were stating that it was this very "competitiveness" that was the reason behind their domination of the Heino?
Remember that?
"Its makes us harder, it make us tougher, youse silly buggers in the Celtic league don't play a real game until ye me us and thats why we hammer ye back into the dark ages where ye all belong" -Stephen Jones (paraphrasing of course)

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

I can’t say I’ve heard that argument before. When was England’s ‘dominance’ of the Heineken Cup?

Do you disagree that the PL is a more competitive league than the Pro14 because of relegation, and that our sides can target Euro games? Again I don’t think there’s anything contentious about that.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by blockhead »

wixfjord wrote:I can’t say I’ve heard that argument before. When was England’s ‘dominance’ of the Heineken Cup?

Do you disagree that the PL is a more competitive league than the Pro14 because of relegation, and that our sides can target Euro games? Again I don’t think there’s anything contentious about that.
Well they did use it, repeatedly, back in the noughties when they won 4 out of 7 titles. They rubbed our faces in it and cheered if they drew an Irish team in a knockout match.

Tell you what. I'll agree that the PL is more competitive than the Pro14 if you agree that AIL Div 2B is more competitive than the PL. They have relegation there too.

And in fairness, a PL team is slightly more likely to beat a AIL Div 2B team than an Irish Pro14 team is to beating a PL team.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

Have you any examples of that line of argument? I can’t say I remember it.

I’m sure the AIL 2B is very competitive yes.

I find it funny the unwillingness for both yourself and Oldschool to see the point I’m making here. Like your last line there actually supports the point that I’m making about Pro14 sides being able to target Europe because our league has more dead rubbers :lol:

Once again (and for the fourth time now!), I’m not saying the PL is better quality. Not sure how many different ways I can say that!

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by Peg Leg »

blockhead wrote:
wixfjord wrote: Well firstly the PRL doesn't/didn't employ those players.
But secondly and more importantly they actually weren't talking about how good the league was. What they each said was that the threat or relegation means teams play differently and are less incentivised to take risks because there's more pressure on every game. So pretty much the opposite.

Once again (and for at least the third time now), I'm not saying relegation is good or bad for the quality of rugby or 'financial success'.

My point is that it makes the league (and each game) more competitive, which in turn means English clubs can't afford to target European games the same as Pro14 (and particularly Irish) sides can.

It's a simple, in my view unarguable point, and of all the complaints English sides have, one of the fairer ones.
Unarguable point eh?
But was it not the case of some years back that the same Premiership cheerleaders were stating that it was this very "competitiveness" that was the reason behind their domination of the Heino?
Remember that?
"Its makes us harder, it make us tougher, youse silly buggers in the Celtic league don't play a real game until ye me us and thats why we hammer ye back into the dark ages where ye all belong" -Stephen Jones (paraphrasing of course)

Were they wrong then?
Both ways it's conjecture for us to argue the positive or negative effects it would have on our league and mindset until we have experienced it and gathered enough evidence to make a cohesive argument to state as a matter of fact the benefit or other.
There is also nothing to suggest that ROG, DOC, HMS Stephen Jones and Madser are not all correct. The teams that make up the premiership will all spout the party line that best defends their predicament. To argue that only one can be correct is reductionist.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by blockhead »

wixfjord wrote:Have you any examples of that line of argument? I can’t say I remember it.

I’m sure the AIL 2B is very competitive yes.

I find it funny the unwillingness for both yourself and Oldschool to see the point I’m making here. Like your last line there actually supports the point that I’m making about Pro14 sides being able to target Europe because our league has more dead rubbers :lol:

Once again (and for the fourth time now!), I’m not saying the PL is better quality. Not sure how many different ways I can say that!
The head-to-head stat would suggest that Irish teams are better than English teams. Would you agree?
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by wixfjord »

blockhead wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Have you any examples of that line of argument? I can’t say I remember it.

I’m sure the AIL 2B is very competitive yes.

I find it funny the unwillingness for both yourself and Oldschool to see the point I’m making here. Like your last line there actually supports the point that I’m making about Pro14 sides being able to target Europe because our league has more dead rubbers :lol:

Once again (and for the fourth time now!), I’m not saying the PL is better quality. Not sure how many different ways I can say that!
The head-to-head stat would suggest that Irish teams are better than English teams. Would you agree?
Yes it could indeed. Once again (fifth time now!) I'm not arguing that. But you keep bringing it up for some reason.

What I said is that it may also support the argument that because of the extra competitiveness of the PL English sides can't target Euro games the same way Pro14 sides can.

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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by blockhead »

wixfjord wrote:
blockhead wrote:
wixfjord wrote:Have you any examples of that line of argument? I can’t say I remember it.

I’m sure the AIL 2B is very competitive yes.

I find it funny the unwillingness for both yourself and Oldschool to see the point I’m making here. Like your last line there actually supports the point that I’m making about Pro14 sides being able to target Europe because our league has more dead rubbers :lol:

Once again (and for the fourth time now!), I’m not saying the PL is better quality. Not sure how many different ways I can say that!
The head-to-head stat would suggest that Irish teams are better than English teams. Would you agree?
Yes it could indeed. Once again (fifth time now!) I'm not arguing that. But you keep bringing it up for some reason.

What I said is that it may also support the argument that because of the extra competitiveness of the PL English sides can't target Euro games the same way Pro14 sides can.
Yeah, no. I'm going to go with their first claim me thinks, yes I think I'll hold them to their original bragg about their super tough PL.
How it steels them for the European challenge. How each monstorous showdown every weekend in the best league in the world makes the challenge from the paddies n co rather quaint.
After all, they don't even have relegation in the Pro14, so they just throw the ball about with nothing on the line.Then they play a completley different team in Europe than they fielded for their league games. Sure how can they have any continuity if they only come together for the European games, stupid Micks.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by blockhead »

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feature ... ter-apart/

Some lines from the article.
THERE is such a Grand Canyon-sized gap in standards between Exeter and Saracens, as the pacesetters, and the other ten Premiership clubs, that claims of it being the most competitive league around seem outdated.
The league may be competitive statistically, but below two top teams, realistically, it is not competitive.
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by johng »

Jeremy Guscott. England's Franno

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blockhead
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Re: Champions Cup 2020 - Standings\predictions

Post by blockhead »

johng wrote:Jeremy Guscott. England's Franno
Et tu, Brute?
So the whole of the Bluestalk crew have now turned on the Pro14 it seems.
Two titles in a row and the sky is falling in.
Some of us just can't enjoy sustained success, makes us feel guilty. Catholic schools legacy?

Season before last the Pro14 had 3 teams in the heino semis and Cardiff won the Challenge Cup. Probably viewed as a negative now.
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