Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[Oldschool]

Radge had an interesting column in the Examiner recently, in which he wrote:
"Not every thought is red. I wonder sometimes about Leinster too. Their age profile, that ‘middle tier’ demographic. Loads of experience and plenty of freshman talent. Not so sure in between. There are perceived Leinster strengths which could be weaknesses before they know it."
[source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/c ... 43042.html ]

I think he's a superb analyst in general, so it was thought-provoking to hear him say that. I tend to bunch players into three, five-year age grades: young [20-24], prime [25-29] and veteran [30-34]. Unless I'm wrong, his 'middle tier' demographic refers to players between 25-29, i.e. born 1991-1995

There are 17 of those in the squad

1. Ed Byrne [b.1993] Pete Dooley [b.1994] at loosehead;
2. James Tracy* [b.1991] at hooker;
3. Tadgh Furlong*‡ [b.1992] at tighthead;
4/5. Ross Molony [b.1994] at lock
6/7/8. Jack Conan* [b.1992], Josh van der Flier* [b.1993], Dan Leavy* [b. 1994], Josh Murphy [b.1995] in the backrow;
9. Jamison Gibson-Park [b.1992] and Luke McGrath* [b.1993] at scrumhalf
10. Ross Byrne* [b.1995] at outhalf;
12/13. Robbie Henshaw*‡ [b.1993], Rory O'Loughlin* [b.1994] and Garry Ringrose* [b.1995] in the centres;
11/14/15. James Lowe [b.1992], Adam Byrne* [b.1994] and Cian Kelleher [b.1994] in the back three

I have to say that I don't know where ROG is coming from on this one. Lads like Furlong [44 Irish caps], Henshaw [43 caps], Ringrose [29 caps], van der Flier [26 caps], Luke McGrath [19 caps], Jack Conan [17 caps] and Leavy [11 caps] were pretty prominent at test level over the last three/four years.

The two areas where we look a little thin are lock [although you could put in Josh Murphy as a hybrid] and outhalf. Obviously Carbery is a Leinster product and was a loss not mitigated by "the good of Irish rugby" – becaues no f*cking good came of it – but we have Ciaran Frawley [b.1997] and Harry Byrne [b.1999] already playing regularly in the Pro14. We are even better off at lock, with James Ryan [b.1996] – the best rugby player in the country – Jack Dunne [b.1998] and Ryan Baird [b.1999] already in the mix.

It'd be something I'd be keen to see ROG expand on.

He will, after we've been raided, he just didn't want to mention it.

[Up Wexford]

Crikey is O'Byrne 29 - last year was his breakout season.. thought he was one for the future....

And JOD is 26? Admittedly I dont watch munster with the same detail as Leinster but would have thought he was more in Deggan/Connors age group.

The have to start Hodnett and Wycherly for as many pro 14 games as they can next season or in the sweetest irony those players should look into a move elsewhere for more gametime.

[munster#1]

Crikey is O'Byrne 29 - last year was his breakout season.. thought he was one for the future....

And JOD is 26? Admittedly I dont watch munster with the same detail as Leinster but would have thought he was more in Deggan/Connors age group.

The have to start Hodnett and Wycherly for as many pro 14 games as they can next season or in the sweetest irony those players should look into a move elsewhere for more gametime.

Munster have had a good bit of movement at hooker in the last few years, so O Byrne has had to be patient, especially as none of the options ahead of him were regular internationals, meaning that they are always available.

With regards to Wycherley, he is 22 and has made 41 appearances to date, I’d say there are not too many 22 year olds knocking around with that amount of caps?

The players that I want to see with double digit appearances next season are Healy, Crowley, Ahern, Knox and Salanoa.

It would be great to see Daly make the 15 shirt his own, and to see Casey really push Murray for the 9 shirt.

[ronk]

Should be more worried about munsters...

Munsters homegrown players from last nights team split into three age groups:

30+
Billy Holland(35)
Keith Earls(32)
Stephen Archer(32)
John Ryan(32)
Conor Murray(31)
Peter O’Mahony(31)

Earls really the only player of the group performing.

Mid to late 20's
James Cronin(29)
Kevin O’Byrne(29)
JJ Hanrahan(28)
Niall Scannell(28)
Rory Scannell(26)
Jack O’Donoghue(26)

ehm...

Early 20's
Shane Daly(24)
Gavin Coombes(22)
Fineen Wycherley(22)
Craig Casey(21)

Casey could be a future star and munster captain, Daly looking very solid.. Need to see more of Coombes and time for Fineen to start consistently at 4.

We look at homegrown players, they will look at the overall age profile including long term recruits like Beirne and Loughman.

[munster#1]

Oops

[Up Wexford]

Crikey is O'Byrne 29 - last year was his breakout season.. thought he was one for the future....

And JOD is 26? Admittedly I dont watch munster with the same detail as Leinster but would have thought he was more in Deggan/Connors age group.

The have to start Hodnett and Wycherly for as many pro 14 games as they can next season or in the sweetest irony those players should look into a move elsewhere for more gametime.

Munster have had a good bit of movement at hooker in the last few years, so O Byrne has had to be patient, especially as none of the options ahead of him were regular internationals, meaning that they are always available.

With regards to Wycherley, he is 22 and has made 41 appearances to date, I’d say there are not too many 22 year olds knocking around with that amount of caps?

The players that I want to see with double digit appearances next season are Healy, Crowley, Ahern, Knox and Salanoa.

It would be great to see Daly make the 15 shirt his own, and to see Casey really push Murray for the 9 shirt.

As I say, don't have the analysts eye on munster but great to see Wycherly F getting his shot. Talent and opportunity is there for him and thats why the casual observer (me) is starting to take notice.

The core of Noel McNamaras successful U20 team was Munster - if they are guided through correctly, Leinster will have a lot to worry about in three years time.

Agree with you on Crowley and Ahern, two very promising players.

A young core of Wycherly, Coombs, Ahern, Hodnett, Casey, Crowley, Daly is a golden opportunity for Munster. Add in DDA and Snyman, Stander, Farrell etc and over time the skys the limit. But you will have to burn your idols (POM, Murrary, Earls)

[munster#1]

Crikey is O'Byrne 29 - last year was his breakout season.. thought he was one for the future....

And JOD is 26? Admittedly I dont watch munster with the same detail as Leinster but would have thought he was more in Deggan/Connors age group.

The have to start Hodnett and Wycherly for as many pro 14 games as they can next season or in the sweetest irony those players should look into a move elsewhere for more gametime.

Munster have had a good bit of movement at hooker in the last few years, so O Byrne has had to be patient, especially as none of the options ahead of him were regular internationals, meaning that they are always available.

With regards to Wycherley, he is 22 and has made 41 appearances to date, I’d say there are not too many 22 year olds knocking around with that amount of caps?

The players that I want to see with double digit appearances next season are Healy, Crowley, Ahern, Knox and Salanoa.

It would be great to see Daly make the 15 shirt his own, and to see Casey really push Murray for the 9 shirt.

As I say, don't have the analysts eye on munster but great to see Wycherly F getting his shot. Talent and opportunity is there for him and thats why the casual observer (me) is starting to take notice.

The core of Noel McNamaras successful U20 team was Munster - if they are guided through correctly, Leinster will have a lot to worry about in three years time.

Agree with you on Crowley and Ahern, two very promising players.

A young core of Wycherly, Coombs, Ahern, Hodnett, Casey, Crowley, Daly is a golden opportunity for Munster. Add in DDA and Snyman, Stander, Farrell etc and over time the skys the limit. But you will have to burn your idols (POM, Murrary, Earls)

It definitely appears that Munster have so real talent coming through, and with the big clear outs that happened this season and last, the path has been cleared for many of them to get some good minutes.

Not sure I would rush out and get rid of POM, Murray and Earls?
They are coming towards the end of their careers, but they are still very talented players.
Both Murray and Earls are first choice internationals, and POM, while possibly not a nailed on starter, he is still going to play a big part for Ireland over the next couple of years.

All we can do is hope, at some stage Munster will win silverware again, they are there or thereabouts most years, but I am getting sick of saying that next years will be our year.
I’m sure many Leinster fans remember that feeling.

[Up Wexford]

Ah no, I agree, and i'm not twisting the knife here, most Munster fans have a realistic picture of where they are at this moment in time. The worm turns slowly, but it turns.

The POM bias is more a personal/blue-tinted thing, but I do think it needs to be looked at. Am I right in saying Jack O'Donoghue is a more natural 6, and is playing at 7 to accommodate POM? POM makes everything looks so bloody difficult, every inch is one of blood, sweat and tears etc. Perhaps younger guys, Casey for example, are unburdened by weight of the jersey and could be looked at in more of a leadership role.

Its never going to be nice when club legends start to wane. And maybe it could backfire, but at the very least a revamped team would match the current level of achievement while building a new model for the future. Is there any appetite in Munster, or where would you like to see the club going forward?

And then from a macro level, its just been a very unique and difficult set of circumstances at head coach for the last few years. The tragic passing of Foley, and then recruiting Erasmus, which in retrospect was an amazing get by Munster - to have the next World Cup winning coach. But also with hindsight, it looks like he did indeed pull shennanigans with Munster in order to leverage the SA job, and then put his protege JVG in - whose record as a coach has been examined by other contributors here. Again, all questions are in good faith, would you stick with JVG to see out his 3 year contract?

[munster#1]

Ah no, I agree, and i'm not twisting the knife here, most Munster fans have a realistic picture of where they are at this moment in time. The worm turns slowly, but it turns.

The POM bias is more a personal/blue-tinted thing, but I do think it needs to be looked at. Am I right in saying Jack O'Donoghue is a more natural 6, and is playing at 7 to accommodate POM? POM makes everything looks so bloody difficult, every inch is one of blood, sweat and tears etc. Perhaps younger guys, Casey for example, are unburdened by weight of the jersey and could be looked at in more of a leadership role.

Its never going to be nice when club legends start to wane. And maybe it could backfire, but at the very least a revamped team would match the current level of achievement while building a new model for the future. Is there any appetite in Munster, or where would you like to see the club going forward?

And then from a macro level, its just been a very unique and difficult set of circumstances at head coach for the last few years. The tragic passing of Foley, and then recruiting Erasmus, which in retrospect was an amazing get by Munster - to have the next World Cup winning coach. But also with hindsight, it looks like he did indeed pull shennanigans with Munster in order to leverage the SA job, and then put his protege JVG in - whose record as a coach has been examined by other contributors here. Again, all questions are in good faith, would you stick with JVG to see out his 3 year contract?

Munster have a very good framework in place.
They are consistently one of the best teams in Europe, but struggle to get over the last hurdle.

I would love to see a few of the young talented players coming through, but they should take the jersey off the player in front of them, not just be given it.

On the coaching front, as you say, there has been a lot of turbulence there.
Even in JVG’s time he lost flannery and Jones.

Given the timing of the arrival of the new assistant coaches, and the interruption of the rwc at the start of the season, I would be of the opinion that the coaching team should be given time to implement their changes.

I am not completely sold on JVG, many of my friends can’t stand him, as they think he is a spoofer, but I’m sure if that was true then the senior players wouldn’t hold back in calling him out.
He has put together a serious team of coaches, and has been ruthless in his approach to culling the squad, including the academy squad.
He has brought in some very talented players, he has the academy players training with the senior squad, and despite many of the claims on here, he has given plenty of game time to many of the young players.

If he hasn’t made further improvement by the end of next season, then a replacement may be considered.
I wonder if Lancaster would be interested in a head coach role!

[Logorrhea]

I wonder if Lancaster would be interested in a head coach role!

A typical Munster approach to improving the team

[munster#1]

I wonder if Lancaster would be interested in a head coach role!

A typical Munster approach to improving the team

He would be a great addition. I might set up a petition to send to the IRFU.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

there are some positives for munster (and Ireland)
Daly looks really good. Ditto for Casey. CJ is still hungry. The munster backline, particularly with farrell, de allende, earls and conway looked really good two weeks ago when given quick ball. baffled why they weren't used more last night.
munster badly need a plan b (like ireland did in 2019) when the "box-kick and chase" approach isn't working and I think the backline they have now can deliver with the right coach and casey at 9.

[blockhead]

I wonder if Lancaster would be interested in a head coach role!

A typical Munster approach to improving the team

He would be a great addition. I might set up a petition to send to the IRFU.

He'd have to bring a bus load of Leinster guys down with him if he was thinking of winning trophies.
Silk Purse/Sow's ear an all that.

[munster#1]

A typical Munster approach to improving the team

He would be a great addition. I might set up a petition to send to the IRFU.

He'd have to bring a bus load of Leinster guys down with him if he was thinking of winning trophies.
Silk Purse/Sow's ear an all that.

Fair point.

[Up Wexford]

[/quote]

Munster have a very good framework in place.
They are consistently one of the best teams in Europe, but struggle to get over the last hurdle.

I would love to see a few of the young talented players coming through, but they should take the jersey off the player in front of them, not just be given it.

On the coaching front, as you say, there has been a lot of turbulence there.
Even in JVG’s time he lost flannery and Jones.

Given the timing of the arrival of the new assistant coaches, and the interruption of the rwc at the start of the season, I would be of the opinion that the coaching team should be given time to implement their changes.

I am not completely sold on JVG, many of my friends can’t stand him, as they think he is a spoofer, but I’m sure if that was true then the senior players wouldn’t hold back in calling him out.
He has put together a serious team of coaches, and has been ruthless in his approach to culling the squad, including the academy squad.
He has brought in some very talented players, he has the academy players training with the senior squad, and despite many of the claims on here, he has given plenty of game time to many of the young players.

If he hasn’t made further improvement by the end of next season, then a replacement may be considered.
I wonder if Lancaster would be interested in a head coach role!
[/quote]

Appreciate the view on JVG. Theres a lot of potential in your young forwards, and rewarding the young turks will pay dividends.

[munster#1]

I fully expect to see more minutes doled out to the young forwards over the next 12 months.
Hopefully we will also see some of the backs getting a good run too.

Hopefully at the end of next season Munster will be celebrating a successful season.....

[ronk]

.

I am not completely sold on JVG, many of my friends can’t stand him, as they think he is a spoofer, but I’m sure if that was true then the senior players wouldn’t hold back in calling him out.
He has put together a serious team of coaches, and has been ruthless in his approach to culling the squad, including the academy squad.
He has brought in some very talented players, he has the academy players training with the senior squad, and despite many of the claims on here, he has given plenty of game time to many of the young players.

If he hasn’t made further improvement by the end of next season, then a replacement may be considered.
I wonder if Lancaster would be interested in a head coach role!

Senior players won't revolt over being picked ahead of the kids.

Munster should sign someone like McNamara. Someone who will push player development instead of holding it back.

[Peg Leg]

Radge had an interesting column in the Examiner recently, in which he wrote:
"Not every thought is red. I wonder sometimes about Leinster too. Their age profile, that ‘middle tier’ demographic. Loads of experience and plenty of freshman talent. Not so sure in between. There are perceived Leinster strengths which could be weaknesses before they know it."
[source: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/c ... 43042.html ]

I think he's a superb analyst in general, so it was thought-provoking to hear him say that. I tend to bunch players into three, five-year age grades: young [20-24], prime [25-29] and veteran [30-34]. Unless I'm wrong, his 'middle tier' demographic refers to players between 25-29, i.e. born 1991-1995

There are 17 of those in the squad

1. Ed Byrne [b.1993] Pete Dooley [b.1994] at loosehead;
2. James Tracy* [b.1991] at hooker;
3. Tadgh Furlong*‡ [b.1992] at tighthead;
4/5. Ross Molony [b.1994] at lock
6/7/8. Jack Conan* [b.1992], Josh van der Flier* [b.1993], Dan Leavy* [b. 1994], Josh Murphy [b.1995] in the backrow;
9. Jamison Gibson-Park [b.1992] and Luke McGrath* [b.1993] at scrumhalf
10. Ross Byrne* [b.1995] at outhalf;
12/13. Robbie Henshaw*‡ [b.1993], Rory O'Loughlin* [b.1994] and Garry Ringrose* [b.1995] in the centres;
11/14/15. James Lowe [b.1992], Adam Byrne* [b.1994] and Cian Kelleher [b.1994] in the back three

I have to say that I don't know where ROG is coming from on this one. Lads like Furlong [44 Irish caps], Henshaw [43 caps], Ringrose [29 caps], van der Flier [26 caps], Luke McGrath [19 caps], Jack Conan [17 caps] and Leavy [11 caps] were pretty prominent at test level over the last three/four years.

The two areas where we look a little thin are lock [although you could put in Josh Murphy as a hybrid] and outhalf. Obviously Carbery is a Leinster product and was a loss not mitigated by "the good of Irish rugby" – becaues no f*cking good came of it – but we have Ciaran Frawley [b.1997] and Harry Byrne [b.1999] already playing regularly in the Pro14. We are even better off at lock, with James Ryan [b.1996] – the best rugby player in the country – Jack Dunne [b.1998] and Ryan Baird [b.1999] already in the mix.

It'd be something I'd be keen to see ROG expand on.

I think he'd be delighted to have someone like the demented mole ghost write for him! You should get in touch.

[offshorerules]

Munster have a very good framework in place.
They are consistently one of the best teams in Europe, but struggle to get over the last hurdle.

[/quote]


The only thing consistent about Munster rugby is their record in semi finals over the last 10 years where they have proven, over and over again, that they are not “one of the best teams in Europe”. There are lots of possibilities regarding the reasons for this but in my opinion it comes down to poor decisions on the selection of coaches and then on the coaches behalf with regard to tactics. Until Munster come up with a mindset change that allows them get away from selecting poor coaches that “know the Munster way” they are goosed. Take Anthony Foley for example. Earmarked as a future great coach having had a stellar playing career but showing zero evidence of any coaching or even man management skills. JVG is the same but without the playing career. It’s sticking out a mile. Bring in larkham and rowntree so, again great players but where’s the coaching success? No, until there’s someone installed with the ability to identify systemically what is needed there will be no improvement. Look at what Leo did when he was appointed, massive differences to what happened in Munster at the same time.

It might be hard reading for the supporters in red but it doesn’t make it untrue.

[wixfjord]

The only thing consistent about Munster rugby is their record in semi finals over the last 10 years where they have proven, over and over again, that they are not “one of the best teams in Europe”.

Hold on, doesn't that record of getting to the last four not prove that they have been consistently one of the best teams in Europe?

What is it 5/6 semis and a quarter? How many other clubs have that record?

I mean getting to semis consistently points to them being top 4 and just unable to get over the likes of ourselves, Racing, Sarries etc.