Munster, The Money Pit Province 2019/2020

[offshorerules]

The only thing consistent about Munster rugby is their record in semi finals over the last 10 years where they have proven, over and over again, that they are not “one of the best teams in Europe”.

Hold on, doesn't that record of getting to the last four not prove that they have been consistently one of the best teams in Europe?

What is it 5/6 semis and a quarter? How many other clubs have that record?

I mean getting to semis consistently points to them being top 4 and just unable to get over the likes of ourselves, Racing, Sarries etc.

I think the poster failed to grasp that, if you regularly make it in to the last 4, then surely you would be considered one of the top teams?
Once or even twice could be considered a blip, but you don’t regularly get there because you are lucky.

This year was very unfortunate in that we had 3 of the teams that would be expected to make the semi, were all drawn in one group.
Unfortunately for Munster they were the team that lost out, because unfortunately they were not good enough.

Next season’s format will be very interesting, I think we could see some big upsets.

The poster fails to accept it is acceptable to lose consistently in the semi final of various competitions, fail to win anything, and then still consider yourself to be a top tier team. The top tier teams are/were Saracens, Leinster and Toulon with possibly Racing joining them. Exeter might be close also. Munster are nowhere near that level as has been shown repeatedly.

[mildlyinterested]

Hold on, doesn't that record of getting to the last four not prove that they have been consistently one of the best teams in Europe?

What is it 5/6 semis and a quarter? How many other clubs have that record?

I mean getting to semis consistently points to them being top 4 and just unable to get over the likes of ourselves, Racing, Sarries etc.

I think the poster failed to grasp that, if you regularly make it in to the last 4, then surely you would be considered one of the top teams?
Once or even twice could be considered a blip, but you don’t regularly get there because you are lucky.

This year was very unfortunate in that we had 3 of the teams that would be expected to make the semi, were all drawn in one group.
Unfortunately for Munster they were the team that lost out, because unfortunately they were not good enough.

Next season’s format will be very interesting, I think we could see some big upsets.

The poster fails to accept it is acceptable to lose consistently in the semi final of various competitions, fail to win anything, and then still consider yourself to be a top tier team. The top tier teams are/were Saracens, Leinster and Toulon with possibly Racing joining them. Exeter might be close also. Munster are nowhere near that level as has been shown repeatedly.

Toulon?

[offshorerules]

As I said, were. Of course if you want to go back over a decade you could include Munster and Leicester but that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

[mildlyinterested]

Fineen is taller than 6'4 tbf

[mildlyinterested]

John Hodnett will be 22 come January. He is Munster’s future 7. Leinster have no problem trusting players in this age bracket, yet Munster seem incapable of doing so.

This culture must change.

There is an elephant in the room at blindside too.

You could well make a strong argument that Munster’s best squad options for the No. 6 jersey are Tadhg Beirne and Jack O’Donoghue, yet it would be a huge decision to drop captain Peter O’Mahony.

Perhaps now is the time to make that call.

Munster’s other Lion, Conor Murray, is in a similar position. His form has been well below his best for some time now.

In fact, Murray’s ponderous play and constant box kicking would appear to be seriously slowing down a lot of Munster’s attacks at present.

A lot of judges would be of the view that Craig Casey is already a better option at No. 9 then Murray. Again, it would be a huge call, but sooner or later it has to be made.

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/Munst ... 3ccdfa2-ds

[Dave Cahill]

Do people actually think that Munster would have played any differently if Craig Casey had started instead of Conor Murray? Casey would have played exactly the same way as Murray because that was the gameplan. It wasn't a case of Murray wandering onto the pitch, taking a look at the sky and thinking, "ooh, I think I'll box-kick the bejaysus out of the ball today". That was the plan.

[OTT]

Well I definitely wouldn’t be touting him as Munster’s saviour, and I haven’t really seen anyone claim that to be the case?

There is no doubting that he is a very talented player for such a young player.
You don’t get that number of games as a young forward unless you have something to offer.
The one thing that you said, that I completely disagree with is that he is underpowered. For me, he is very powerful, and still has some growing to do.

I’m not sure that he will go on to collect a high number of Irish caps, but he is definitely one for the future.
His height is the biggest concern, at 6’4” he is too small for a top end second row, so he may have to adjust his game to play in the back row, at either 6 or 8, and that area may be a bit congested.

Sledging free post...I promise.

I think Wycherley is great. He seemed to have more impact in the 18/19 season then the one just gone and that was probably because he played a lot at 6 that season. He reminds me a bit of Ross Molony for us in that he will always play hard, it won't matter what type of team is around him or against him, that is a great quality and it makes or demands that others buy in to it. I think he will definitely be in the mix for Irish caps because a good coach won't ignore a guy who brings that sort of intensity to things that he brings, maybe he won't be a 50 or 100 capper and maybe he will but he will definitely be around squads.

I think JVG is a very conservative selector I know you disagree and think he selects what he has to but Wycherley needs to be starting games now ahead of Holland (another guy who plays hard and has had a great career) because he has at the very least reached a similar ability to him but more because his potential is much greater and it shows that people will be rewarded.

You did a list of guys in another post who Munster have brought through this season but if you go into the detail on them they have not really brought them through, they have thrown them random minutes in random games when they had to, again I could show you the same Leinster equivalents in every position that have been brought through only it actually looks like there was a plan with them from before the season started such was their games and minutes played, some of them even started at the weekend. That has to be on JVG.

The biggest fear I have is that Munster will start playing some of their young lads more and they will become less predictable and the talent behind the 22-24 year olds looks even better, you just have to play them.

[mildlyinterested]

Pom shouted at Murray at 68th minute scrum.. "get your f%~king head in the game man"

[blockhead]

The irony.

[munster#1]

Well I definitely wouldn’t be touting him as Munster’s saviour, and I haven’t really seen anyone claim that to be the case?

There is no doubting that he is a very talented player for such a young player.
You don’t get that number of games as a young forward unless you have something to offer.
The one thing that you said, that I completely disagree with is that he is underpowered. For me, he is very powerful, and still has some growing to do.

I’m not sure that he will go on to collect a high number of Irish caps, but he is definitely one for the future.
His height is the biggest concern, at 6’4” he is too small for a top end second row, so he may have to adjust his game to play in the back row, at either 6 or 8, and that area may be a bit congested.

Sledging free post...I promise.

I think Wycherley is great. He seemed to have more impact in the 18/19 season then the one just gone and that was probably because he played a lot at 6 that season. He reminds me a bit of Ross Molony for us in that he will always play hard, it won't matter what type of team is around him or against him, that is a great quality and it makes or demands that others buy in to it. I think he will definitely be in the mix for Irish caps because a good coach won't ignore a guy who brings that sort of intensity to things that he brings, maybe he won't be a 50 or 100 capper and maybe he will but he will definitely be around squads.

I think JVG is a very conservative selector I know you disagree and think he selects what he has to but Wycherley needs to be starting games now ahead of Holland (another guy who plays hard and has had a great career) because he has at the very least reached a similar ability to him but more because his potential is much greater and it shows that people will be rewarded.

You did a list of guys in another post who Munster have brought through this season but if you go into the detail on them they have not really brought them through, they have thrown them random minutes in random games when they had to, again I could show you the same Leinster equivalents in every position that have been brought through only it actually looks like there was a plan with them from before the season started such was their games and minutes played, some of them even started at the weekend. That has to be on JVG.

The biggest fear I have is that Munster will start playing some of their young lads more and they will become less predictable and the talent behind the 22-24 year olds looks even better, you just have to play them.

It would be an interesting read, so I will take you up on that offer.
Can you please include the players ages as I am not all too familiar with all of the Leinster players data.

I don’t for a second think that Munster are at Leinster’s level when it comes to youth development, just think it would be interesting to see how the likes of Casey, Fineen, Knox, Nash, Coombes etc compare to the Leinster equivalents with regards to number of appearances and minutes.

[OTT]

It would be an interesting read, so I will take you up on that offer.
Can you please include the players ages as I am not all too familiar with all of the Leinster players data.

I don’t for a second think that Munster are at Leinster’s level when it comes to youth development, just think it would be interesting to see how the likes of Casey, Fineen, Knox, Nash, Coombes etc compare to the Leinster equivalents with regards to number of appearances and minutes.

Sure, here is the post I was referring to

From what is more controllable, I hope we see some further development in the way Munster plays and who the play.
This season we got to see the likes of Coombes, Fineen, Healy, Knox, Casey, JOS, Barron and Daly all get valuable minutes on the field.
Some of them showed just why they have been hyped up so much during their time in the underage system.

I was not sure which Coombes you were referring to so I included both.


Liam Coombes (23)v Hugo Keenan (24)

Coombes made 3 appearances this season 2+1 for 177 mins
Keenan has made 11 appearances 10+1 for 785 mins

Keenan has started 10 of our 17 league games so far this season including the semi final at the weekend.

Gavin Coombes (22) v Max Deegan (23)

Coombes made 7 appearance this season 1+6 for 135mins
Deegan has made 18 appearances so far 13+5 for 1130mins

Deegan has been involved in 18 of Leinster's 23 games so far. His performances were rewarded with him getting selected for a first Irish cap.

Fineen Wycherley (22) v Ryan Baird (21)

Wycherley has played 19 times this season 12+7 for 1018mins
Baird has played 8 games 3+5 for 384 mins

Break through season for Baird, he has put in a MOM performance in the league and was involved off the bench in the semi final against Munster.

Ben Healy (21) v. Harry Byrne (21) or Ciaran Frawley (22)

Ben Healy has played 3 games this season 1+2 for 99mins
Harry Byrne has played 10 gamesd 3+7 for 335mins
Ciaran Frawley has been involved 12 times 4+8 for 411 mins

Byrne and Frawley have had 22 contributions to Leinster's so far unbeaten season between them despite Ross Byrne missing out on the World Cup. Frawley also being tried successfully as a second play maker at 12 recently.

Keynan Knox(21) v. Jack Aungier(21) or Roman Salanoa(22)

Knox has played in 8 games for 2+6 for 212mins
Aungier played in 5 games 0+5 for 79mins
Salanoa played in 3 games 0+3 for 57mins

Aungier and Salanoa started the season as 4th and 5th choice th's despite that they had 8 involvements between them, particularly impressive for Salanoa being only a very recent convert to rugby union. Now that they have both jumped ship the next cab off the rank Tom Clarkson (20) has already seen game time since the return to play.

Craig Casey (21) v Rowan Osbourne (23)

Casey has 9 appearances this season 3+6 for 252mins
Osbourne has 5 appearances 1+4 for 123mins


Osbourne was brought into the Leinster squad this season from the AIL off the back of Nick McCarthy joining Munster and Leo and Lancaster feeling they needed some depth between the two senior scrumhalf's and the academy players. He started against Munster down in Thomond and acquitted himself very well. The development time has also been shared with Hughie O'Sullivan (22).

Jack O'Sullivan (21) v Caelan Doris (22)

O'Sullivan was involved in 8 games 3+5 for 303mins
Doris has played in 15 games 12+3 for 904mins


In what is his second season starting regularly Doris has pushed himself in as an Ireland started picking up two caps in the unfinished six nations. Equally adapt at 6 or 8 he has become a very important player for Leinster.


Diarmuid Barron (22) v Ronan Kelleher (22)

Barron has been involved 6 times 0+6 for 36mins
Kelleher has played 11 strting them all for 621mins

Kelleher has been first choice this season since taking his chance during the world cup when Cronin was away with Ireland. He has forced his way into the Ireland squad winning 3 caps so far. Scores a lot of try's also.

Shane Daly (23) v Jordan Larmour (23)

Daly has played in 14 games 13+1 for 1021mins
Larmour has played 9 games all starts for 652mins.

it is hard to believe that it is only 3 years ago that Larmour was playing his first senior Leinster game, he quickly became a regular for both Leinster and Ireland picking up 24 irish caps so far.





Other then Wycherley and Daly it looks like the others are definitely behind where they should probably be. Casey is a blue chip player but has started only 3 games for the reasons we have gone into to many times before. Knox is a guy who has a big reputation but he is not afforded much game time instead it is sank into two players in their 30's who have been insitu for a decade, whats the risk? he might be good? I think O'Sullivan probably would have seen a bit more game time if he was not injured but you would not put money on it. The others I cant really see how they have been brought through, would love to hear your thoughts.

Not named above for Leinster are players like Scott Penny, Jimmy O'Brien, Conor O'Brien, Tommy O'Brien, Connors, Porter and Ryan, I was trying to keep it fair.

[munster#1]

It would be an interesting read, so I will take you up on that offer.
Can you please include the players ages as I am not all too familiar with all of the Leinster players data.

I don’t for a second think that Munster are at Leinster’s level when it comes to youth development, just think it would be interesting to see how the likes of Casey, Fineen, Knox, Nash, Coombes etc compare to the Leinster equivalents with regards to number of appearances and minutes.

Sure, here is the post I was referring to

From what is more controllable, I hope we see some further development in the way Munster plays and who the play.
This season we got to see the likes of Coombes, Fineen, Healy, Knox, Casey, JOS, Barron and Daly all get valuable minutes on the field.
Some of them showed just why they have been hyped up so much during their time in the underage system.

I was not sure which Coombes you were referring to so I included both.


Liam Coombes (23)v Hugo Keenan (24)

Coombes made 3 appearances this season 2+1 for 177 mins
Keenan has made 11 appearances 10+1 for 785 mins

Keenan has started 10 of our 17 league games so far this season including the semi final at the weekend.

Gavin Coombes (22) v Max Deegan (23)

Coombes made 7 appearance this season 1+6 for 135mins
Deegan has made 18 appearances so far 13+5 for 1130mins

Deegan has been involved in 18 of Leinster's 23 games so far. His performances were rewarded with him getting selected for a first Irish cap.

Fineen Wycherley (22) v Ryan Baird (21)

Wycherley has played 19 times this season 12+7 for 1018mins
Baird has played 8 games 3+5 for 384 mins

Break through season for Baird, he has put in a MOM performance in the league and was involved off the bench in the semi final against Munster.

Ben Healy (21) v. Harry Byrne (21) or Ciaran Frawley (22)

Ben Healy has played 3 games this season 1+2 for 99mins
Harry Byrne has played 10 gamesd 3+7 for 335mins
Ciaran Frawley has been involved 12 times 4+8 for 411 mins

Byrne and Frawley have had 22 contributions to Leinster's so far unbeaten season between them despite Ross Byrne missing out on the World Cup. Frawley also being tried successfully as a second play maker at 12 recently.

Keynan Knox(21) v. Jack Aungier(21) or Roman Salanoa(22)

Knox has played in 8 games for 2+6 for 212mins
Aungier played in 5 games 0+5 for 79mins
Salanoa played in 3 games 0+3 for 57mins

Aungier and Salanoa started the season as 4th and 5th choice th's despite that they had 8 involvements between them, particularly impressive for Salanoa being only a very recent convert to rugby union. Now that they have both jumped ship the next cab off the rank Tom Clarkson (20) has already seen game time since the return to play.

Craig Casey (21) v Rowan Osbourne (23)

Casey has 9 appearances this season 3+6 for 252mins
Osbourne has 5 appearances 1+4 for 123mins


Osbourne was brought into the Leinster squad this season from the AIL off the back of Nick McCarthy joining Munster and Leo and Lancaster feeling they needed some depth between the two senior scrumhalf's and the academy players. He started against Munster down in Thomond and acquitted himself very well. The development time has also been shared with Hughie O'Sullivan (22).

Jack O'Sullivan (21) v Caelan Doris (22)

O'Sullivan was involved in 8 games 3+5 for 303mins
Doris has played in 15 games 12+3 for 904mins


In what is his second season starting regularly Doris has pushed himself in as an Ireland started picking up two caps in the unfinished six nations. Equally adapt at 6 or 8 he has become a very important player for Leinster.


Diarmuid Barron (22) v Ronan Kelleher (22)

Barron has been involved 6 times 0+6 for 36mins
Kelleher has played 11 strting them all for 621mins

Kelleher has been first choice this season since taking his chance during the world cup when Cronin was away with Ireland. He has forced his way into the Ireland squad winning 3 caps so far. Scores a lot of try's also.

Shane Daly (23) v Jordan Larmour (23)

Daly has played in 14 games 13+1 for 1021mins
Larmour has played 9 games all starts for 652mins.

it is hard to believe that it is only 3 years ago that Larmour was playing his first senior Leinster game, he quickly became a regular for both Leinster and Ireland picking up 24 irish caps so far.





Other then Wycherley and Daly it looks like the others are definitely behind where they should probably be. Casey is a blue chip player but has started only 3 games for the reasons we have gone into to many times before. Knox is a guy who has a big reputation but he is not afforded much game time instead it is sank into two players in their 30's who have been insitu for a decade, whats the risk? he might be good? I think O'Sullivan probably would have seen a bit more game time if he was not injured but you would not put money on it. The others I cant really see how they have been brought through, would love to hear your thoughts.

Not named above for Leinster are players like Scott Penny, Jimmy O'Brien, Conor O'Brien, Tommy O'Brien, Connors, Porter and Ryan, I was trying to keep it fair.

The numbers are not as stark as one would imagine from looking at some of the comments on here.
Swap Nash for Coombes, and things actually start to even out a fair bit.

Interestingly, many of the Munster lads are a year or 2 younger than their listed Leinster counterpart.
You would have to imagine that many of their appearance figures will increase when they get to the same respective point in their development.

It is worth nothing that all of Knox’s appearances came before his 21st birthday, as a tight head, to make that many appearances as a 20 year old is very solid, and his numbers should be much improved before he hits 22, should he stay fit of course.

A big outlier for me is at out half. Munster really dropped the ball there, I suspect that it was more in an effort to get as many minutes into JJ as possible after losing Tyler and Joey.
Hopefully this will be remedied over the next few months.

There is no doubting that the quality at Leinster is better, and they do dole out more minutes to squad and development players, but the figures go a long way towards banishing the myth that Munster have no interest in developing their own players.

Thank you for taking the time to put this together.

[paddyor]

Do people actually think that Munster would have played any differently if Craig Casey had started instead of Conor Murray? Casey would have played exactly the same way as Murray because that was the gameplan. It wasn't a case of Murray wandering onto the pitch, taking a look at the sky and thinking, "ooh, I think I'll box-kick the bejaysus out of the ball today". That was the plan.

And it didn't fail the way people think it did.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

rumours abound that frawley is going to munster on a short term loan....

[Oldschool]

Do people actually think that Munster would have played any differently if Craig Casey had started instead of Conor Murray? Casey would have played exactly the same way as Murray because that was the gameplan. It wasn't a case of Murray wandering onto the pitch, taking a look at the sky and thinking, "ooh, I think I'll box-kick the bejaysus out of the ball today". That was the plan.

Wrong question.
The game plan might have been the same for both.
The question should be - "Do people think Casey would have played or carried out the game plan better than Murray"

[dropkick]

On Fineen, he looks like he has a big engine and is powerful but might not have the size for the very top level rugby. On the other hand if he went to blindside he would be big for the position and add size to a pack. He has to work on his handling but he ticks a lot of boxes.


Overall JVG has been MOC-like in giving youth a chance. On the one hand he has cleared out the squad and freshened it up but somehow he still avoids playing young players as OTT showed above.


Last season when he was playing the likes of Stander and POM early on against the likes of Zebre and I was thinking what was the point of it. Later that season he pointed out how munster were improved from the season before in terms of try count etc. Easy to look good playing a full team against Ospreys B side in Thomond.


I think he has 80% of his first choice squad is nailed on and he squeezes every last drop out of them that he can. If the IRFU didn't have protocols in place he would play them every week. He can then point out at the end of the season how they "improved" on last season.


Its against the smaller teams where you see his true colours. Instead of it being an opportunity to rotate, freshen up the squad/competition for places, play an expansive, skill based, less attritional style of play, JVG opts to win by using munsters physicality. That beats most teams, is enough to get to semi finals and makes a CV look good but its severely limited and the big sides just need to match munster up front and have a bit more guile to win.


People will say that you win whichever way you can. Thats fine if its a tournament. In league matches you have to choose a style of play and generally stick to it to. It might mean losing away to Benetton in the wet but over the season its more likely to win you a trophy.

[Ruckedtobits]

Great research and very appropriate conclusions @ OTT. Seeing the picture presented so comprehensively and referencing the MO'C comparison is totally valid even if not every example falls towards the Leinster player.

Facts are a real pain in the arrus for those hauling opinions around on their shoulders.