Pro 14 - General Thread

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ronk
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by ronk »

I’d be ok with that for a schedule, but it would be imbalanced for knockouts. I’d prefer a single league table with a conference schedule.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by leinsterforever »

Yeah. A single table would help to mitigate concerns about differing conference strength. And it'd make it easier for fans to know where their team stands.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by dropkick »

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feature ... pro14/amp/


Another pop at the pro14 and Irish teams before the season has started. Don't think I've ever read anything about the damage done to the premiership when their teams rest players.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by OTT »

9 Pro 14 games since he returned from the world cup does not have the same sensationalist sound to it as 15 months for sure.

For Leinster in those 15 months there was no Pro 14 rugby played between 25/05/19-28-09/19 [4+moths] and 28/2/2020 - present [almost 6months].

Ross Byrne and his deputies lead Leinster to an unbeaten run in the Pro14 dating back 15+ months, would be an alternative take.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by Dave Cahill »

He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by ronk »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 10:32 am
He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/extra.ie/20 ... ampton/amp

Sexton was injured. He's subject to game time management but that’s not why he hasn’t been seen in the Pro14 for a while. He was injured for the only chunk of the truncated season that he would have been available for.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by Dave Cahill »

In the same period of time he managed to start 4/5 RWC games, all the truncated Six Nations games and even managed a RWC warm up game. The miraculous restorative powers of Carton House. Lourdes without all the kneeling.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by dropkick »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 10:32 am
He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.

He's living in a fantasy world where players can play 40 games a season.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by Dave Cahill »

dropkick wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 4:29 pm
Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 10:32 am
He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.

He's living in a fantasy world where players can play 40 games a season.
No, he isn't. Hes living in a world where he finds it ridiculous that the two highest profile players in it, the captains of their countries, the Lions Captain and the Lions outhalf, don't play any games in their club primary competition. And he's right. In the last 10 years, Sexton has started 60 of the 198 Celtic League games he has been at Leinster for (from before he was an international regular). Since returning from France he has started 14 regular season games in the League and 9 of those were interpros.

Now, you can argue the merits of player managment as regards the international team and I don't disagree with a lot of it, but it is inarguable the damage it is doing to the league and sufficient damage to the league will ultimately damage the international team.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by leinsterforever »

Of course a league with four national teams drawn from it rather than one is going to be more affected by international call-ups. It's intrinsic to the whole set up. Other countries with a similar number of clubs feeding the national team to Ireland (NZ, SA, Aus) have a much shorter club season.

if you want to have both a club season the length of the European one and 3-6 teams rather than 12 teams feeding the national team then it's unavoidable that a lot of first choice players will often be unavailable.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by FLIP »

Ah yes, let's be in a real rugby competition.

Should we be the one that has to fire players and breach contracts?

Or the one with poaching academies in the Pacific Islands?

Both of which plough players into the ground making them retire early?
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by paddyor »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 10:32 am
He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.
Maybe that's the sports market though? It's over 5 years since the HEC row and the PRL clubs crowing about how they would grow the game. "Fans want big names playing in big games that matter" -worst market research ever! Well not really, of course that's what fans want but too much of a good thing cheapens it's value. They nearly bankrupted themselves chasing that mantra and the reward is stagnant attendances and I note they're not talking about TV audiences anymore. Not to mention a diminished HEC.

There isn't really a lot we can do a bout the Welsh regions. They don't have the numbers to make 4 teams work whre they are. And a few marquee players isn't going to change it enough for them. I think Scarlets gate income the year they won the Pro14 was about 1m. I think the Dragons season tickets cost about £100. Even if they got an uptick of say 50%, 50% of FA is still FA.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by hugonaut »

paddyor wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 9:08 pm
There isn't really a lot we can do a bout the Welsh regions. They don't have the numbers to make 4 teams work whre they are. And a few marquee players isn't going to change it enough for them. I think Scarlets gate income the year they won the Pro14 was about 1m. I think the Dragons season tickets cost about £100. Even if they got an uptick of say 50%, 50% of FA is still FA.
Agreed. 17 years of the Welsh bleating on about their problems with the regional set-up ... I couldn't give a sh*t.

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Who f*cking cares? Do you remember when you had to put 50p in the meter to heat the house? Do you remember when you used to have your jacks outside in a shed? Do you remember the three day week? Do you remember old money? Glorious times, I'm sure.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by blockhead »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 10:32 am
He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.
Jaysus, not this horseshit again. If the welsh go bust it's not because of Irish teams playing weakened sides. Just look at their attendances for Heino games, no improvement. Welsh rugby fans are like GAA fans over here.
Speaking as a Leinster fan, what we are doing is working out just fine. Up to the rest to change our minds, on the pitch.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by Dave Cahill »

Self interest is grand, but a team needs opposition, no matter how good it is. It won't be entirely or significantly the fault of Irish teams if the welsh regions go bust, correct, they have had a significant number of organisation fuckups from the get go and they live in a world of delusion oft times. One thing they that aren't delusional about though is that no one in Wales is interested in watching Welsh teams getting hockeyed by understrength opposition. We saw it in Ireland at one point with Connacht.

What I want, and what I believe Celtic Rugby needs, is three strong celtic unions forming a power bloc to negotiate equal entry to a british and irish league. If one of the bricks fails, then the whole thing falls down. Then the remainder will be in a position where they have to take what they can get - if they can get anything. But be certain of one thing. Irish professional rugby can not survive on its own.
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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by ronk »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 11:06 pm
Self interest is grand, but a team needs opposition, no matter how good it is. It won't be entirely or significantly the fault of Irish teams if the welsh regions go bust, correct, they have had a significant number of organisation fuckups from the get go and they live in a world of delusion oft times. One thing they that aren't delusional about though is that no one in Wales is interested in watching Welsh teams getting hockeyed by understrength opposition. We saw it in Ireland at one point with Connacht.

What I want, and what I believe Celtic Rugby needs, is three strong celtic unions forming a power bloc to negotiate equal entry to a british and irish league. If one of the bricks fails, then the whole thing falls down. Then the remainder will be in a position where they have to take what they can get - if they can get anything. But be certain of one thing. Irish professional rugby can not survive on its own.

And France and England need opposition too. So there’s a stabilising force. The Welsh regions can continue like this indefinitely as long as the Welsh national team is doing okay. Irish fans accept Sexton’s player management, they accepted BOD, Munster grew with O’Gara and POC barely around. We could send the stars to Welsh towns but it wouldn’t bring many fans in. We don’t care whether we see AWJ in the RDS.

Mako Vunipola can play 17 of 22 games the year after a Lions tour, could we try the same thing, maybe. In some ways I worry that players like Sexton and BOD played sacrificial rugby, limped through tournaments and patched themselves up in between to get back in time for the next big game.

But I’m more worried about the magic just-in-time recoveries than the sitting out minor games.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by paddyor »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 11:06 pm
Self interest is grand, but a team needs opposition, no matter how good it is. It won't be entirely or significantly the fault of Irish teams if the welsh regions go bust, correct, they have had a significant number of organisation fuckups from the get go and they live in a world of delusion oft times. One thing they that aren't delusional about though is that no one in Wales is interested in watching Welsh teams getting hockeyed by understrength opposition. We saw it in Ireland at one point with Connacht.

What I want, and what I believe Celtic Rugby needs, is three strong celtic unions forming a power bloc to negotiate equal entry to a british and irish league. If one of the bricks fails, then the whole thing falls down. Then the remainder will be in a position where they have to take what they can get - if they can get anything. But be certain of one thing. Irish professional rugby can not survive on its own.
Sounds nice. But the Welsh would take the hand of the English clubs for a chance and the probablity of relegation to the championship so what difference does it make?
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by dropkick »

Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 6:02 pm
dropkick wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 4:29 pm
Dave Cahill wrote:
August 17th, 2020, 10:32 am
He's right though.

Hard to claim something is a marquee league when the marquee players don't play in it.

It doesn't matter how good the reserves are, if the players that people who aren't obsessive about rugby have actually heard of aren't playing in it, then they aren't going to care about it.

The biggest threat to the continued success of Irish Rugby is the potential collapse of the Welsh Regional system.

He's living in a fantasy world where players can play 40 games a season.
No, he isn't. Hes living in a world where he finds it ridiculous that the two highest profile players in it, the captains of their countries, the Lions Captain and the Lions outhalf, don't play any games in their club primary competition. And he's right. In the last 10 years, Sexton has started 60 of the 198 Celtic League games he has been at Leinster for (from before he was an international regular). Since returning from France he has started 14 regular season games in the League and 9 of those were interpros.

Now, you can argue the merits of player managment as regards the international team and I don't disagree with a lot of it, but it is inarguable the damage it is doing to the league and sufficient damage to the league will ultimately damage the international team.

He cherrypicked those 2. Sexton is held together by sticky tape and AW Jones has played 420 senior games of rugby. Its probably a sabbatical which is common in NZ super rugby.


The pro14 is more of a squad based league and there's nothing wrong with that. Its physically impossible for players to play in every game so some competition has to lose out. Unless he comes up with a solution he should stop complaining about it. I think the negative press does more damage than star players missing.

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Re: Pro 14 - General Thread

Post by Dave Cahill »

paddyor wrote:
August 18th, 2020, 5:47 am
Sounds nice. But the Welsh would take the hand of the English clubs for a chance and the probablity of relegation to the championship so what difference does it make?
They wouldn't though. A few troglodytes might, but no one actually involved in Welsh rugby would. They know that they would get chewed up, stripped for parts and spat out the other side.
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