Pro 14 - General Thread

[Up Wexford]

PRO 18 and two or three world class teams to challenge Leinster. We will finally have an incentive to keep all our players for a more challenging schedule instead of shipping them off around Ireland. I presume it will all be behind a paywall so ratings will continue to be muck but at least could catch the home games?

[Dave Cahill]

PRO 18 and two or three world class teams to challenge Leinster. We will finally have an incentive to keep all our players for a more challenging schedule instead of shipping them off around Ireland. I presume it will all be behind a paywall so ratings will continue to be muck but at least could catch the home games?

Our incentive is irrelevant - do you think that Leinster don't already want to keep all our talent? By the same token the other provinces will equally need our players more in order to compete with the additional "two or three world class teams".

The reality is that South Africa has added nothing to the Pro14 except money (some might say thats all they needed to add in the first place). They currently have two teams - one a traditional powerhouse of SA provincial rugby, the other a Union owned franchise, but neither have anything to offer because as soon as a decent player emerges, they're shifted to one of the Super Rugby sides. The only way an expansion of the failed South African experiment should be considered is if it were agreed that the Pro Rugby sides would have primacy of selection over the Super Rugby sides. Indeed I would go so far as to say that this should be considered as a prerequisite for the continued participation of their existing sides.

[hugonaut]

Super Rugby is done. They f%~ked around with the format too much and killed it. Crowds are sh!t, tv ratings are in the toilet

And Australian rugby has been in decline for some time and has gone into freefall in recent years.

When I was growing up, NSW and Queensland were world leaders in so many fields: technically and tactically they were really slick and innovative, their talent identification was outstanding [the Aussies were the ones who played by the phrase 'if you're good enough, you're old enough', whereas other people just said it] and in terms of fitness they were way ahead of the competition with the collaboration of the AIS. When they introduced a third provincial side in 1996, the Brumbies, they hit the ground running.

They're now ranked seventh in the world, their lowest spot since World Rugby/IRB introduced the system. They used to have a genuinely 50/50 rivalry with the All Blacks in the 1990s [it was NZ 13W, Aus 10W out of 23 matches], and up until 2003-04 it was still going strong, but since the start of the 2005 Tri Nations, NZ have won 36 of the 45 games [Aus 7W and two draws].

I really see rugby as being in total retreat over there. It's in disarray. I can't think of a single part that is functioning well. It used to be on a par with league in terms of popularity, and now it's way behind. The opposite has happened in the UK. Rugby League in Britain has been in retreat for 20 years. Adult playing numbers dropped 39% in the ten years from 2007 to 2017 [according to this article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2017/ ... by-league/ ].

[Dave Cahill]

Rugby League in Britain really is in trouble alright.

For a decade, after the union game went pro, clubs would drive large trucks full of money up to Manchester, park outside Kris Radlinski's* house and say 'how about that then'. He stayed loyal to Wigan though. Now? Kris Radlinski would have been snapped up by a union club long before he entered the Wigan system.

WILD PREDICTION ALERT: In 20 years time both Wigan Warriors and St Helens will be playing in the Premiership.




*IMO the best player of his generation, and yes, I know who else was in that generation

[OTT]

Tangent: I loved those Wigan teams of the 90's Edwards, Radlinski, Offiah, Botica, Connolly, Cassidy, Robinson, Farrell, Newton, O'Connor, Betts, Haughton, Henry Paul and more. They seemed to show them every week on BBC at one stage, Central Park was always rammed.

Hated St Helens and particularly Bobby Goulding

Sadly other then Sean O'Loughlin (if he is still even playing) I would find it hard to name any of their players these days.

[hugonaut]

Rugby League in Britain really is in trouble alright.

For a decade, after the union game went pro, clubs would drive large trucks full of money up to Manchester, park outside Kris Radlinski's* house and say 'how about that then'. He stayed loyal to Wigan though. Now? Kris Radlinski would have been snapped up by a union club long before he entered the Wigan system.

WILD PREDICTION ALERT: In 20 years time both Wigan Warriors and St Helens will be playing in the Premiership.

*IMO the best player of his generation, and yes, I know who else was in that generation

I think there is still an animus between league and union in the league heartlands in Britain, as much based on social class and geography as anything else was. In that way, little has changed since the original schism 120+ years ago. I couldn't see one of the Super League sides switching codes. It'd be like taking the soup. I'd say overall they'd lose support rather than gain it.

Like most people who grew up when union was still amateur, when I was a kid I used to see league as 'the enemy' [while still watching it]. I remember the outcry when Jonathan Davies signed for Widnes - it was a massive, massive story. Nowadays I think of RL in Britain as a game on its uppers with no way back.

It's pretty fascinating to consider an alternate history where 'broken-time' payments were okayed, the codes never split [league was played under the same rules as union for the first decade after the split, apparently] and rugby evolved as a professional sport alongside football in Britain. Or conversely, where the northern league backed down and the whole game in England stayed amateur and was played north and south.

[Up Wexford]

I have to admit to being a fan of South African Rugby - similar to Hugo and Australia I was a huge fan of the '07 SA World Cup team and the legendary Bulls and Sharks* teams of the time, and they were never afraid of NZ, so I'm bit biased but it think handled correctly the introduction of South African Super rugby teams into the Pro 14 would be a good thing - at least for Leinster.

The incentive I mean was for the players to stay on! More games of consequence means more squad rotation, which means more chances for players, which incentivises them to stay. As it stands they have it in their heads (because the IRFU tells them) that they are better served outside Leinster playing more games, but in reality of equal or less to their Leinster role. Break it down, Leinster play maybe 8-12 big games a season depending on our Euro group - (2 finals, 2 semis, a quarter final, two important euro away games and depending on our group 3 or four other euro group games.) There are maybe 34 ish matches a season? Pro14 isnt where its at, interpros are non events and dont get me wrong, we all enjoy all the games, but that is because we are fans. The big games are where the players feed off the crowds, score the tries and tackles they remember, that keep them going through the slog in Newport/Port Elizabeth etc. We are really good at rotation in Leinster but more big games, against world class teams, would be an incentive for Carberry/Aungier/Salanoa/Penny whoever to stay on in our set up.

It has to be handled correctly of course Dave, and im telling you now it wont be handled well under Anyanyi but we can dream. I take your point that the PRO14 expansion is a joke but if I remember this was sketched up on the back of fag box October two years ago, it was always going to be shambolic. The kings play in a corporation park with half a stand and a van for tickets from what I can tell, but the Cheetahs have shown a couple of decent games when they are bothered. I think Super Rugby would have to be disbanded and PRO 14 be their main competition for this to work. I'm not sure if I take your point on Home nations teams getting dibs on South African player transfers though?

A free to air league with semi finals involving Pretoria, Cape Town, Glasgow and Dublin would be pretty cool. What else do you see that I cant see through my blue rose tinted glasses ? Travel and crowds are obviously going to be a problem and a paywall will kill this dead in its tracks.

*and yes im very aware of the drugs, Pierre Spies just off the top of my head but sure isnt everyone at it

[Dave Cahill]

I think there is still an animus between league and union in the league heartlands in Britain, as much based on social class and geography as anything else was. In that way, little has changed since the original schism 120+ years ago. I couldn't see one of the Super League sides switching codes. It'd be like taking the soup. I'd say overall they'd lose support rather than gain it.

Like most people who grew up when union was still amateur, when I was a kid I used to see league as 'the enemy' [while still watching it]. I remember the outcry when Jonathan Davies signed for Widnes - it was a massive, massive story. Nowadays I think of RL in Britain as a game on its uppers with no way back.

It's pretty fascinating to consider an alternate history where 'broken-time' payments were okayed, the codes never split [league was played under the same rules as union for the first decade after the split, apparently] and rugby evolved as a professional sport alongside football in Britain. Or conversely, where the northern league backed down and the whole game in England stayed amateur and was played north and south.

I agree, there is a massive dislike of Union within League ranks, based mainly, as you say, on class (and to a lesser extent sectarianism - League was popular amongst working class catholics because after the split games were played on a saturday). I don't think that any club would voluntarily switch code - I just don't think they'll have any choice. Professional Rugby League in Britain is in real trouble from a financial POV - its why they've reactivated the GB Lions for example, in an attempt to get a new revenue stream - and down the line I believe that the clubs will be faced with three equally unpalatable choices. Fold, Merge, or revert to amateur status. Clubs like Wigan, St Helens, Hull and ors would actually be very attractive to Rugby Union - geographically, in terms of their history, and in terms of their brands. Those clubs are also businesses and will do what they can to survive. Like I say, its a wild prediction, but they may not have any real choice

[Keith]

I think there is still an animus between league and union in the league heartlands in Britain, as much based on social class and geography as anything else was. In that way, little has changed since the original schism 120+ years ago. I couldn't see one of the Super League sides switching codes. It'd be like taking the soup. I'd say overall they'd lose support rather than gain it.

Like most people who grew up when union was still amateur, when I was a kid I used to see league as 'the enemy' [while still watching it]. I remember the outcry when Jonathan Davies signed for Widnes - it was a massive, massive story. Nowadays I think of RL in Britain as a game on its uppers with no way back.

It's pretty fascinating to consider an alternate history where 'broken-time' payments were okayed, the codes never split [league was played under the same rules as union for the first decade after the split, apparently] and rugby evolved as a professional sport alongside football in Britain. Or conversely, where the northern league backed down and the whole game in England stayed amateur and was played north and south.

I agree, there is a massive dislike of Union within League ranks, based mainly, as you say, on class (and to a lesser extent sectarianism - League was popular amongst working class catholics because after the split games were played on a saturday). I don't think that any club would voluntarily switch code - I just don't think they'll have any choice. Professional Rugby League in Britain is in real trouble from a financial POV - its why they've reactivated the GB Lions for example, in an attempt to get a new revenue stream - and down the line I believe that the clubs will be faced with three equally unpalatable choices. Fold, Merge, or revert to amateur status. Clubs like Wigan, St Helens, Hull and ors would actually be very attractive to Rugby Union - geographically, in terms of their history, and in terms of their brands. Those clubs are also businesses and will do what they can to survive. Like I say, its a wild prediction, but they may not have any real choice

League clubs going to union would go about as well as Leeds rebranding to Yorkshire in the championship. Dislike is a gentle word to describe the animosity league fans still have towards union. Just go onto any league forum and look at the tripe they spout about union.

Rugby league offcials are finally accepting how important an international scene is for growing the game and are desperately now trying to push the international scene, which is failing due the half arsed attempt when you see the disastrous attendances in the last world cup, Oceania cup and GB tour. They even laughably tried to include Ireland as part of the GB lions last season in order to drum up some interest over here. Which went about as well as you'd expect.

[hugonaut]

Tangent: I loved those Wigan teams of the 90's Edwards, Radlinski, Offiah, Botica, Connolly, Cassidy, Robinson, Farrell, Newton, O'Connor, Betts, Haughton, Henry Paul and more. They seemed to show them every week on BBC at one stage, Central Park was always rammed.

Hated St Helens and particularly Bobby Goulding

Sadly other then Sean O'Loughlin (if he is still even playing) I would find it hard to name any of their players these days.

I'm the same. Those lads were big stars. If you were interested in sport, you knew their names ... because they were on TV all the time.

RL in Britain changed from a winter sport to a summer sport when Sky bought the rights in 1996 [less than 25 years ago] and it went off terrestrial TV. Sky gave them a massive amount of money [£87m - probably around £135m in value today] to change the season and buy the broadcasting rights.

In theory it now wasn't competing against soccer or rugby and was only going up against cricket. In practise it made RL disappear from view to all but RL die-hards. It went from being on terrestrial TV on a weekly basis to never being on terrestrial TV. The game has both shrunk and declined ever since in Britain. The best British players now play in Australia, average attendances are well under 10K [for a league where 10 of 12 clubs are within spitting distance], wages are down, only four teams are competitive on the pitch and financially they are all under the pump. The league sponsorship expires next year, as does their Sky Sports deal.

Terrestrial TV [RTE, BBC, ITV, Channel 4] isn't going anywhere for some time yet, and audience numbers are f*cking huge compared to Sky Sports/BT Sport etc. If you're a governing body of a sport and you're negotiating broadcasting rights and you want to 'grow the game', you can't square that with an exclusive PPV deal. You have to negotiate a package that includes a live game or at worst a high profile magazine show [like Match of the Day] on terrestrial TV on a weekly basis.

[Dave Cahill]

League clubs going to union would go about as well as Leeds rebranding to Yorkshire in the championship. Dislike is a gentle word to describe the animosity league fans still have towards union. Just go onto any league forum and look at the tripe they spout about union.

Very soon they'll have little choice. The harsh reality of blinking out of existence softens many a cough

Rugby league offcials are finally accepting how important an international scene is for growing the game and are desperately now trying to push the international scene, which is failing due the half arsed attempt when you see the disastrous attendances in the last world cup, Oceania cup and GB tour. They even laughably tried to include Ireland as part of the GB lions last season in order to drum up some interest over here. Which went about as well as you'd expect.

Ireland were traditionally part of the Northern Union XIII touring side - many of the players were Irish or of Irish extraction, but it gradually, as the game died out everywhere except for Northern England, became the Great Britain Lions. The crest never changed though, it was always The British Isles XIII, and guys like Brian Carney, Jack Daly and Bob Kelly played for them.

Rugby League has no future as an International game. There are really only 4 teams (Eng, Aus, NZ, PNG - maybe France as a fifth) that can compete at a high level without being flooded with a huge number of tenuously connected English or Australian players.

[Keith]

League clubs going to union would go about as well as Leeds rebranding to Yorkshire in the championship. Dislike is a gentle word to describe the animosity league fans still have towards union. Just go onto any league forum and look at the tripe they spout about union.

Very soon they'll have little choice. The harsh reality of blinking out of existence softens many a cough

Rugby league offcials are finally accepting how important an international scene is for growing the game and are desperately now trying to push the international scene, which is failing due the half arsed attempt when you see the disastrous attendances in the last world cup, Oceania cup and GB tour. They even laughably tried to include Ireland as part of the GB lions last season in order to drum up some interest over here. Which went about as well as you'd expect.

Ireland were traditionally part of the Northern Union XIII touring side - many of the players were Irish or of Irish extraction, but it gradually, as the game died out everywhere except for Northern England, became the Great Britain Lions. The crest never changed though, it was always The British Isles XIII, and guys like Brian Carney, Jack Daly and Bob Kelly played for them.

Rugby League has no future as an International game. There are really only 4 teams (Eng, Aus, NZ, PNG - maybe France as a fifth) that can compete at a high level without being flooded with a huge number of tenuously connected English or Australian players.

Guys like Carney played for GB for the same reason guys like Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce played for the England cricket team. The GB lions in league has never and will never have any real interest in representing Ireland hence why the few Irish fans (Also a lot of English league fans too) derided rugby league Ireland's decision to cling onto the coat tails of this lions team. It becomes even more comical when you see that Ireland had world cup qualifiers to play the same time as this tour took place.

The thing is that league has quiet a good product at international level. I really enjoyed watching Tonga's and Fijis exploits in the last world and Tonga's victory over the Aussies a few months back was incredible to watch. But with the club's ruling the roast in an already long club season there is little chance of the game getting a consistent international calendar.

[Dave Cahill]

[ Guys like Carney played for GB for the same reason guys like Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce played for the England cricket team. The GB lions in league has never and will never have any real interest in representing Ireland hence why the few Irish fans (Also a lot of English league fans too) derided rugby league Ireland's decision to cling onto the coat tails of this lions team. It becomes even more comical when you see that Ireland had world cup qualifiers to play the same time as this tour took place.

The thing is that league has quiet a good product at international level. I really enjoyed watching Tonga's and Fijis exploits in the last world and Tonga's victory over the Aussies a few months back was incredible to watch. But with the club's ruling the roast in an already long club season there is little chance of the game getting a consistent international calendar.

There seems to be some confusion, the last Lions tour had no Irish players on it. There was a guy who had previously played for Ireland but he had switched back to England a year previously. I would say that the reason for the few Irish fans is because there are feck all rugby league fans in Ireland and of that feck all there are bugger all who are fans of Irish rugby league - and that number will decrease when the local lads are ditched from the world cup squad for super league guys who aren't good enough to play for England!

[Keith]

[ Guys like Carney played for GB for the same reason guys like Eoin Morgan and Ed Joyce played for the England cricket team. The GB lions in league has never and will never have any real interest in representing Ireland hence why the few Irish fans (Also a lot of English league fans too) derided rugby league Ireland's decision to cling onto the coat tails of this lions team. It becomes even more comical when you see that Ireland had world cup qualifiers to play the same time as this tour took place.

The thing is that league has quiet a good product at international level. I really enjoyed watching Tonga's and Fijis exploits in the last world and Tonga's victory over the Aussies a few months back was incredible to watch. But with the club's ruling the roast in an already long club season there is little chance of the game getting a consistent international calendar.

There seems to be some confusion, the last Lions tour had no Irish players on it. There was a guy who had previously played for Ireland but he had switched back to England a year previously. I would say that the reason for the few Irish fans is because there are feck all rugby league fans in Ireland and of that feck all there are bugger all who are fans of Irish rugby league - and that number will decrease when the local lads are ditched from the world cup squad for super league guys who aren't good enough to play for England!

No there is no confusion at all, I've been following rugby league Ireland quite extensively (I know somebody who played for Ireland in league but is currently playing AIL) for a while. I was making the point that IF Irish players were selected, (and there was talk of at least one player from each home nation being selected to justify the GB lions making a return) they wouldn't have been able to play in world cup qualifiers which is inexcusable on rugby league Ireland's part. The Irish fans I was referring to, are the few that are on the general rugby league forum, all of whom were appalled at rugby league Ireland's decision to identify with this lions team.

[leinsterforever]

Sure there's not much difference between GB in league and the Lions in union. They've just been slower to drop GSTQ and have 'Irish' in their name. It was only back in 2001 that they changed to 'B&I Lions' because of Lenihan highlighting it. Don't know when they dropped GSTQ from the union Lions, but I read somewhere that Slattery was playing for the Lions once when they played it, so that's into the 70s anyway.

As for the last tour, Wayne Bennett, as an Aussie, just didn't really get the concept of the Lions. Didn't he say to the media that Welsh players chances of selection were harmed because he was using the tour for development for English players? Imagine a Lions coach in union coming out and saying something like that!

[Keith]

Sure there's not much difference between GB in league and the Lions in union. They've just been slower to drop GSTQ and have 'Irish' in their name. It was only back in 2001 that they changed to 'B&I Lions' because of Lenihan highlighting it. Don't know when they dropped GSTQ from the union Lions, but I read somewhere that Slattery was playing for the Lions once when they played it, so that's into the 70s anyway.

As for the last tour, Wayne Bennett, as an Aussie, just didn't really get the concept of the Lions. Didn't he say to the media that Welsh players chances of selection were harmed because he was using the tour for development for English players? Imagine a Lions coach in union coming out and saying something like that!

Yes Bennett admitted as such which is one of the reasons why the tour is viewed as such a farce; that and the attendances and general attention the tour got were disastrous. They also lost every game including the one against PNG, which was their first ever victory over a tier 1 nation. To be fair dropping GSTQ and adding Ireland to the team name is quite substantial especially when looking at the league counter part.

[Morf]

Rugby League has no future as an International game. There are really only 4 teams (Eng, Aus, NZ, PNG - maybe France as a fifth) that can compete at a high level without being flooded with a huge number of tenuously connected English or Australian players.

As noted below Tonga are very competitive and I could easily see Samoa going the same way if Fox money is available and guys aren't hoovered up by NFL academies.

A lot of work is going in from RLI in terms of youth, coach and referee development in league.

Have played myself somewhat for a few summers and while playing numbers/fixture completion is poor the groundwork seems to be going on in the background.

[JB1973]

I think there is still an animus between league and union in the league heartlands in Britain, as much based on social class and geography as anything else was. In that way, little has changed since the original schism 120+ years ago. I couldn't see one of the Super League sides switching codes. It'd be like taking the soup. I'd say overall they'd lose support rather than gain it.

Like most people who grew up when union was still amateur, when I was a kid I used to see league as 'the enemy' [while still watching it]. I remember the outcry when Jonathan Davies signed for Widnes - it was a massive, massive story. Nowadays I think of RL in Britain as a game on its uppers with no way back.

It's pretty fascinating to consider an alternate history where 'broken-time' payments were okayed, the codes never split [league was played under the same rules as union for the first decade after the split, apparently] and rugby evolved as a professional sport alongside football in Britain. Or conversely, where the northern league backed down and the whole game in England stayed amateur and was played north and south.

I agree, there is a massive dislike of Union within League ranks, based mainly, as you say, on class (and to a lesser extent sectarianism - League was popular amongst working class catholics because after the split games were played on a saturday). I don't think that any club would voluntarily switch code - I just don't think they'll have any choice. Professional Rugby League in Britain is in real trouble from a financial POV - its why they've reactivated the GB Lions for example, in an attempt to get a new revenue stream - and down the line I believe that the clubs will be faced with three equally unpalatable choices. Fold, Merge, or revert to amateur status. Clubs like Wigan, St Helens, Hull and ors would actually be very attractive to Rugby Union - geographically, in terms of their history, and in terms of their brands. Those clubs are also businesses and will do what they can to survive. Like I say, its a wild prediction, but they may not have any real choice

I lived in leeds for years and had a family member who played league for st Helens, I even played it a lower level (certainly no pay) for a season or so

They big northern clubs will never take up union and their fans will never support it either (kick and clap they call it) and they basically hate the rfu and everything they stand for

Historically There is also massive animosity between the wru and the rugby league, not surprising given the amount of top players they poached from us over the years (although the wru treatment of those that went north was overly harsh banned from entering grounds and club houses etc)

The welsh side that finished 3rd in the 1987 world cup lost the following players to league from that squad

Hadleigh,deveruex,jiffy davies,stuart evans,dai young, paul morairty,roland Phillips and Richard Webster


There is a documentary on it on the bbc I player


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-43307033

The only big name irish player I have read about "going north" was ken goodall , we lost hundreds of the years so I doubt there is the same level of friction between the two codes with you guys

As for their gb and irish lions team I get that when you had players from other nations in there Sullivan the try scorer and captain of the last British/Irish RL world cup winning side was welsh. But now all the players are English or Aussies with English heritage.

The ones who play for other nations , Knowles / coote play for wales and Scotland via the grand parent rule, the only welsh player who may make it is grace the ST Helens winger and Borugh the Scottish guy so if they want to call themselves England I have no issue tbh

I like rl as a sport to watch and it's a good day out, but it will never be a big sport in the uk and Ireland outside it's heartlands in Lancashire yorkshire and Cumbria let alone do much on a global scene and I find it a bit hypocritical for them to moan about union poaching their players as they did the same for a hundred years

[JB1973]

Rugby League has no future as an International game. There are really only 4 teams (Eng, Aus, NZ, PNG - maybe France as a fifth) that can compete at a high level without being flooded with a huge number of tenuously connected English or Australian players.

As noted below Tonga are very competitive and I could easily see Samoa going the same way if Fox money is available and guys aren't hoovered up by NFL academies.

A lot of work is going in from RLI in terms of youth, coach and referee development in league.

Have played myself somewhat for a few summers and while playing numbers/fixture completion is poor the groundwork seems to be going on in the background.

Aren't all the Tongan players basically tongans living and who have been born or brought in nz and oz from a young age though?

[heno]

Any chance we could put all the league stuff into its own thread and not in the pro14 thread?

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