Ulster 2017 - 2018

[olaf the fat]

Good perspective Peg leg.

Only gripe would the role model thing. In this land and in this sport, I do believe that if you take the money, the fame, the profile to kids - and especially if you put on the green jersey you become a role model. Should the case have any influence on them playing in the future and eventually getting some sort of redemption?

[Jackie Brown]

The redemption story should be worth more than the sweetness and light bullshit that anyone with any sense knows is paper thin.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Peg Leg]

Good perspective Peg leg.

Only gripe would the role model thing. In this land and in this sport, I do believe that if you take the money, the fame, the profile to kids - and especially if you put on the green jersey you become a role model. Should the case have any influence on them playing in the future and eventually getting some sort of redemption?

You are right, you become one. And every new contract outlines the extent of your marketability. These guys have really had their lives torn asunder by an allegation demonstrated in court to be unproven. Taking that at face value, you are correct, they have reduced their standing in the public realm and are un-marketable.

Are they terrible role models... or is society still not willing to drop the curtain on common behaviour? They are not what i would want to tell my children to look up to. Their athletic ability (rugby) is though....

I am confused by what that says about us and where we are at as a society.

[rooster]

So the lads who testified that they didn't know anything about anything or what the other was doing upstairs, all knew enough to describe the event in adolescent little high fives and sniggers to each other and send a porno giff/ vid to each other of the same act. What an extraordinary coincidence. It was not allowed in court, but it's out now.

Also

The guy who played the knight in shinning armour, running to the rescue of a lady in distress is the guy who sends the vid (sorry Gif) to is mate's for another good old boys behind the bike shed laugh. Top staggers one and all.

How sick does this have to get before you say hold on a second, Ulster May not be able to do better than these tools as role models, but Ireland can. Why in God's name would anyone defend these childish fools.

From the In do...

Toby Hedworth QC said: "The significance of this video is that it is sent by Mr Harrison to Mr Olding just over two hours after all four defendants have met up that lunchtime at Soul Food."

Later he added: "The video, we submit, provides evidence of what they had been discussing otherwise it is a remarkable coincidence.

"We submit this is highly relevant in respect of the overall case as it was being discussed by all four defendants as to what occurred earlier that same morning, and when one considers in particular Mr Olding's difficulty apparently knowing what Mr Jackson had been doing and Mr Harrison claiming not to know what had occurred upstairs.

"There are two sides as to how Mr Harrison was playing this game in the aftermath.

"It is important that the jury see what Mr Harrison was doing that morning.

"Was he being concerned genuinely, or was he enjoying with his friends what had gone on after their discussion about it at the Soul Food restaurant?

"It is highly relevant to this case as a whole but it is particularly relevant to Messrs Olding and Harrison."

Toby Headworth QC was the very man who read out the text messages in the wrong order and took one from earlier in the night to make it all look worse. This then created another "legal argument" break while it was sorted yet press did not bother mentioning. The defence were not allowed to divulge previous texts of the girls which could have made a difference.
It was tit for tat stuff that goes on in trials with one side breaking the rules and getting a slapper then vice versa and press just wanted a few more bits of sleeze, they still can't print any of the stuff re the complainant as it is out of bounds for privacy as is stamens from 4 of her friends.
That is my last bit on the trial.

[rooster]

As for will things get better up here, it will take time, decent young lads coming through and Jordi will be a help to them and side in general.
10 situation is problematic if Jackson goes there are no international grade 10's available this side of RWC and that has been recognised.

[BlueBlue]

That's all very tidy. But here's the nub of it, it's not tidy at all.

[Peg Leg]

That's all very tidy. But here's the nub of it, it's not tidy at all.

Exactly, Rooster doesn't know enough to have a definitive conviction, nor do I and nor do you. So we should probably leave it there.
I sincerely hope justice has been done and unfortunately for now have to trust the decision of others.

[darkside lighteside]

So it sounds very much like there is a desire in some quarters for the IRFU to re-run the trial in its disciplinary process, with a lower burden of proof (or none at all #Ibelieveher), and with a large dose of summary justice as the outcome.

What makes you say that?

Because I can't otherwise account for the disparity in vitriol directed at Jackson on the one hand, and Gilroy on the other

[darkside lighteside]

except that it was utterly un-prosecutable and should never have seen the inside of a court. - Have you got a credible source for this, a legal professional unattached to the case ?

couple of solicitors, couple of cops - yeah actually, why don't I post their names on some random website, let's see now... If you have any friends or contacts who are solicitors, ask the question, I'll be very surprised if you hear anything different.

Slightly different angle, but this from a rape counsellor in a fairly hostile magazine article *http://bamni.co.uk/2018/04/04/big-case- ... ack-field/):

Interestingly, since the case ended and the four men accused were acquitted I’ve had a lengthy conversations with a retired rape crisis counsellor who revealed to me that what surprised her most of all with the case was the fact that it got to court at all.

“In all my years accompanying women to the police and court I have to say I’ve encountered many cases that had better evidence and, in my opinion, were more likely to result in a conviction than this one. None of these cases made it to the courtroom” she said.

and interestingly a high proportion of female respondents Interesting why? , because you believe rape, sexual assault, demeaning a huge section of society and sexism are women's issues ?

I mentioned that because I have seen the suggestion that there's a big male/female split with respect to the case - I thought on here, but if not elsewhere. Certainly hasn't been my own experience.

[olaf the fat]

As for will things get better up here, it will take time, decent young lads coming through and Jordi will be a help to them and side in general.
10 situation is problematic if Jackson goes there are no international grade 10's available this side of RWC and that has been recognised.

Jordi will certainly add a bit of class, Cooney is turning into a top Player along with the likes of Henderson, Stockdale, keep Best fit for Ulster and the NIQ lads - there is some real quality there. Outhalf is a problem for Ulster and i imagine PJ will be back right or wrong - you'd have to wonder how different the landscape would be if Donald was bought, would PJ fight his way back to first choice 10?

[darkside lighteside]

You are right, you become one. And every new contract outlines the extent of your marketability. These guys have really had their lives torn asunder by an allegation demonstrated in court to be unproven. Taking that at face value, you are correct, they have reduced their standing in the public realm and are un-marketable.

Are they terrible role models... or is society still not willing to drop the curtain on common behaviour? They are not what i would want to tell my children to look up to. Their athletic ability (rugby) is though....

I am confused by what that says about us and where we are at as a society.

I think as things stand they have failed as role models - yes they will say that they have been unlucky, other players have done and said much worse, and that is almost certainly true, but what has happened has happened. Rather than role models, they are now a cautionary tale - about the dangers of getting wasted and doing stupid things, and of 'banter' that deliberately transgresses bounds of taste and propriety. It's worth noting as well that they personally have suffered significant reputational damage, and will pay a heavy financial penalty as a result.

So yes they have been foolish, and yes they have failed as role models - but were their actions so heinous that it merits being summarily sacked by their employers, and precluded any chance of representing province and country again, or of redeeming themselves off the pitch and rehabilitating their reputation at home? For me the answer is a clear no. I have no problem acknowledging that their conduct has fallen short of what it should have been, but I have a big problem with a pile-on on social media by a mob for whom the actual people involved are incidental.

I don't know them personally but I have met them, and FWIW while we have been in this strange, fraught limbo since the trial ended, and the statements of apology that the players have made have necessarily been not naturalistic (if you know what I mean), I believe they were sincere. I believe they can come back and I believe they are capable of taking steps to rebuild their reputations.

[olaf the fat]

They will be back.

But, if your employer has to carry out reviews, have to deal with unnecessary PR and worry about sponsorship fall out all due to your private conduct - well that's the type of thing that gets brought up during contract renewal negotiations.

[neill_m]

(15-9): C Piutau, L Ludik, D Cave, S McCloskey, J Stockdale, J McPhillips, J Cooney;
(1-8): C Black, R Best (Capt), R Kane, K Treadwell, I Henderson, M Rea, J Deysel, S Reidy;

(16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, T O'Toole, A O'Connor, N Timoney, D Shanahan, L Marshall, T Bowe.

15 Dan Evans 14 Jeff Hassler 13 Kieron Fonotia 12 Owen Watkin 11 Hanno Dirksen 10 Dan Biggar 9 Tom Habberfield 1 Nicky Smith 2 Scott Otten 3 Dmitri Arhip 4 Bradley Davies 5 Adam Beard 6 Alun Wyn Jones (C) 7 Sam Cross 8 James King

16 Ifan Phillips 17 Rhodri Jones 18 Ma’afu Fia 19 Lloyd Ashley 20 Guy Mercer 21 Matthew Aubrey 22 Sam Davies 23 James Hook

Could be a rematch in a few weeks for the final Euro spot via the league. Hopefully will be a decent game.

[Laighin Break]

(15-9): C Piutau, L Ludik, D Cave, S McCloskey, J Stockdale, J McPhillips, J Cooney;
(1-8): C Black, R Best (Capt), R Kane, K Treadwell, I Henderson, M Rea, J Deysel, S Reidy;

(16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, T O'Toole, A O'Connor, N Timoney, D Shanahan, L Marshall, T Bowe.

15 Dan Evans 14 Jeff Hassler 13 Kieron Fonotia 12 Owen Watkin 11 Hanno Dirksen 10 Dan Biggar 9 Tom Habberfield 1 Nicky Smith 2 Scott Otten 3 Dmitri Arhip 4 Bradley Davies 5 Adam Beard 6 Alun Wyn Jones (C) 7 Sam Cross 8 James King

16 Ifan Phillips 17 Rhodri Jones 18 Ma’afu Fia 19 Lloyd Ashley 20 Guy Mercer 21 Matthew Aubrey 22 Sam Davies 23 James Hook

Could be a rematch in a few weeks for the final Euro spot via the league. Hopefully will be a decent game.

Has Alun Wyn Jones played in the backrow much?

[neill_m]

Last start was 2007 for the Ospreys.

[BlueBlue]

Todays indo and the story is also carried in the Irish edition of The Times. Bank of Ireland are 20 year sponsors of UR.

Ulster rugby sponsor Bank of Ireland has said it is 'highly concerned' and is reviewing its partnership with the province following the Belfast rape trial.



In a statement sent to Independent.ie, the bank confirmed it has conveyed concerns to Ulster CEO Shane Logan following the high-profile trial.


Ulster and Ireland players Paddy Jackson (26) and Stuart Olding (25) were acquitted of raping the same woman at a house party at Mr Jackson's south Belfast home in June 2016.

Mr Jackson was also cleared of sexual assault.


Both players are suspended from Ulster pending an investigation.

During the trial details of crude messages via WhatsApp emerged which has led to widespread calls for Jackson and Olding not to return to the Ulster set-up.


"As a sponsor of Ulster Rugby, Bank of Ireland is highly concerned regarding the serious behaviour and conduct issues which have emerged as a result of the recent high profile trial," read a Bank of Ireland statement.
Story in todays Irish Indo and Irish edition of The Times. Its worth noting that BoI have been solid sponsers of Ulster Rugby for 20year, that's one hell of a relationship.


"The Bank has formally conveyed these concerns to the CEO of Ulster Rugby.


"It is of paramount importance to Bank of Ireland that our sponsorship activity aligns with and supports our core values, and reflects positively on Bank of Ireland through association.

"We understand that an internal review is underway. We expect this review to be robust, to fully address the issues raised, and that decisions will be taken – and policies and protocols be put in place – that fully address the issues that have arisen.


"Given that a review is underway, we won’t comment further on this issue at this time."

[BlueBlue]

From the Indo,

A rally calling for Ulster to address the behaviour of players will take place tomorrow evening ahead of the club's first home match since the Belfast rape trial ended.

The demonstration, entitled 'Stamp out Misogyny at Ulster Rugby', is being organised by Belfast Feminist Network and will take place before the team plays Welsh side Ospreys.It is the second in a series of rallies organised by the group since the trial verdict was delivered on March 28.

Belfast Feminist Network said it was part of "a movement to change how our criminal justice system deals with sexual assault crimes".


Last week 139 people took out a crowd-funded advert in this newspaper to demand that Mr Jackson and Mr Olding never play rugby for Ulster or Ireland again.
The advert described the content of social media exchanges involving the pair as "reprehensible".

However, an advert in yesterday's Belfast Telegraph, paid for by fans of Ulster Rugby, called on the club to reinstate the two players to the squad.
The full-page advert, funded by more than 100 supporters, described "the social media backlash" against the men as "cyber prosecution".


During the trial the court heard about a series of WhatsApp messages in which Mr Olding said "we are all top shaggers" and "there was a bit of spit roasting going on last night fellas".

Mr Jackson wrote: "There was a lot of spit roasting last night."

Olding told the WhatsApp group: "It was like a merry-go-round at a carnival."


Belfast Feminist Network said its members were "still angry at the underbelly of sexism and misogyny that was revealed in evidence given during the recent trial".
It added: "This rally is not about the future careers of the players currently suspended.

"We are sending a message that there needs to be action taken by Ulster Rugby and other institutions to stamp out misogyny."

The group is calling for reforms to the criminal justice system in cases of alleged sexual assaults, including changes to media reporting, and wants an education programme on "consent and toxic masculinity" to be taught in schools.

It also wants "adequately resourced support services for victims and survivors of rape and sexual abuse".

In a post about a placard-making workshop last night ahead of the rally at the Kingspan Stadium, the group said it had "some concerns about a confrontational attitude from a minority of fans, but equally we reckon there will be many who support what we're doing".

[IanD]

Re the trail and posts.

Can the Mods split this or going forward can we just start a new thread.

I am not trying to belittle the fallout or it's impact on Ulster Rugby but for instance has little impact on the rugby this weekend.

[Peg Leg]

Can a post trial related thread be set up?
I know I am as much to blame as anyone here, but we need some rugby chat in here.

[Peg Leg]

Re the trail and posts.

Can the Mods split this or going forward can we just start a new thread.

I am not trying to belittle the fallout or it's impact on Ulster Rugby but for instance has little impact on the rugby this weekend.

Great minds Ian