Ulster 2017 - 2018

[sunshiner1]

Denis Coulson is being realeased by Connacht. Ulster could do worse than snap him up. He's done really well for Connacht and there ain't many IQ Looseheads not contrcted out there.

[Oldschool]

How can you have an empathetic criminal charge?

I never mentioned or explicitly criticised the jury's verdict. It's impossible for anyone to reach a determinative conclusion on 9 weeks of courtroom evidence without being present and I wouldn't presume to do so. Juries themselves are a whole other discussion, ask anyone who's been on a jury! I'm not criticising anyone who says there may not have been enough evidence to secure a conviction. My comment was directed at the general debate that has arisen, one which is well worthy of discussion, and at the tenor of much of the commentary here, which has been entirely dismissive of the complainant and her experience.

Olding's comment at least demonstrated a degree of empathy with her. Jackson's most certainly did not. It's critical to remember that 'beyond a reasonable doubt' is an extremely high bar to overcome for a prosecution - and especially in the area of rape or sexual assault which so often comes down to a 'he said/she said'. It really doesn't take much for a defence to create enough vagueness in the narrative to bring a jury home. Again, the ridiculously low successful conviction stats bear this out - and yet no one would (I think) suggest that sexual assault or rape hardly ever occurs or that complainants are always lying.

I think a further debate should take place regarding the conduct of such trials, and I'm pleased to see Charlie Flanagan running with the idea in this jurisdiction. Certainly the daily public exposure of the trial in the North - for both sides - was appalling, and there is much to be learned from how other countries approach the issue.

Empathy? Are you for real?
He's just been convincingly cleared of all charges after nearly two years worrying, his life put on hold, his career put on hold and still facing an uncertain future etc etc.
The rest of us have (speaking for myself really) empathy for the complainant but expecting PJ to have it is seriously lacking in balance.
Try putting yourself in all (accused and accuser) their shoes and imagine how you might feel.
As for the republic, how about sorting out our own issues.
The land of saints and scholars and paedophiles and magdalene launderies, housing shortages etc etc etc

[rooster]

Who knows he may already be in their sights, we have heard very little about signings at present though do have the bones of a decent pack coming through the academy with a few good props there.

[ChrisUppy]

Denis Coulson is being realeased by Connacht. Ulster could do worse than snap him up. He's done really well for Connacht and there ain't many IQ Looseheads not contrcted out there.

Another player accused of rape? It would be PR suicide.

http://www.rte.ie/amp/867299/

[Hippo]

Empathy? Are you for real?
He's just been convincingly cleared of all charges after nearly two years worrying, his life put on hold, his career put on hold and still facing an uncertain future etc etc.
The rest of us have (speaking for myself really) empathy for the complainant but expecting PJ to have it is seriously lacking in balance.
Try putting yourself in all (accused and accuser) their shoes and imagine how you might feel.
As for the republic, how about sorting out our own issues.
The land of saints and scholars and paedophiles and magdalene launderies, housing shortages etc etc etc

Seriously, get a grip.

[Oldschool]

Empathy? Are you for real?
He's just been convincingly cleared of all charges after nearly two years worrying, his life put on hold, his career put on hold and still facing an uncertain future etc etc.
The rest of us have (speaking for myself really) empathy for the complainant but expecting PJ to have it is seriously lacking in balance.
Try putting yourself in all (accused and accuser) their shoes and imagine how you might feel.
As for the republic, how about sorting out our own issues.
The land of saints and scholars and paedophiles and magdalene launderies, housing shortages etc etc etc

Seriously, get a grip.

That was exactly the advice I was giving you!

[olaf the fat]

Empathy? Are you for real?
He's just been convincingly cleared of all charges after nearly two years worrying, his life put on hold, his career put on hold and still facing an uncertain future etc etc.
The rest of us have (speaking for myself really) empathy for the complainant but expecting PJ to have it is seriously lacking in balance.
Try putting yourself in all (accused and accuser) their shoes and imagine how you might feel.
As for the republic, how about sorting out our own issues.
The land of saints and scholars and paedophiles and magdalene launderies, housing shortages etc etc etc

While PJ is certainly not guilty of the charges, he gets no empathy for the two years worrying, life on hold, uncertain future etc.
As a professional sports person representing Ireland and Ulster not getting caught up in a drunken sex act with people you don't know and where consent is even questioned is not a very f%~king high bar to achieve. Paddy is laying in a bed he made.

[Jackie Brown]

Empathy? Are you for real?
He's just been convincingly cleared of all charges after nearly two years worrying, his life put on hold, his career put on hold and still facing an uncertain future etc etc.
The rest of us have (speaking for myself really) empathy for the complainant but expecting PJ to have it is seriously lacking in balance.
Try putting yourself in all (accused and accuser) their shoes and imagine how you might feel.
As for the republic, how about sorting out our own issues.
The land of saints and scholars and paedophiles and magdalene launderies, housing shortages etc etc etc

While PJ is certainly not guilty of the charges, he gets no empathy for the two years worrying, life on hold, uncertain future etc.
As a professional sports person representing Ireland and Ulster not getting caught up in a drunken sex act with people you don't know and where consent is even questioned is not a very f%~king high bar to achieve. Paddy is laying in a bed he made.

http://www.thepotato.ie/2013/08/conor-m ... threesome/

Disgusting behaviour

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[olaf the fat]

Even more so, pj probably had knowledge of how stupid this was going to pan out or do you think that because of that previous scandal that this was ok?

[Jackie Brown]

Even more so, pj probably had knowledge of how stupid this was going to pan out or do you think that because of that previous scandal that this was ok?

I'm just wondering what conclusions the IRFU review came to back then. Or what the outrage was on Twatter

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[rooster]

Even more so, pj probably had knowledge of how stupid this was going to pan out or do you think that because of that previous scandal that this was ok?

I think he was probably so pissed that his train of thought never got that far.

[darkside lighteside]

I certainly think the complainant has been badly let down - but primarily by the police and PPS. I have heard from a number of people in the legal profession, and the unanimous consensus is bemusement that this case was ever brought to trial - very long gap between referral and decision to prosecute is read as problems with the quality of evidence and/or politicking within the PPS given the media coverage - and having seen the evidence, the view is that you could put this in front of 100 juries simultaneously and not get one conviction. Essentially no clear physical evidence, sloppy police work, a female eyewitness who said that she didn't see a rape, and complainant testimony which was flawed and inconsistent - given the reasonable doubt barrier, the chances of conviction were always pretty much zero.

A shorter trial with 2 defendants might have stood a chance. Police were probably trying to flip the other 2 but it backfired badly.

The messages the next day were not probative and didn’t need to be used in evidence. It made it look like spite on the part of the prosecution, which it could have been.

I think the splashing of the messages is a reflection of the weakness of the actual evidence of the prosecution - he lead with this in order to maximise shock value and tarnish the jury's view of the defendants. Probably successful as far as it went - certainly for the first few days of the trial I was appalled and (literally) nauseated, if I could have pushed a button to send them straight to jail and end it all I would have been tempted..

[darkside lighteside]

As for the IRFU 'having to be seen to behave in accordance with...the lad's contracts' - respectfully no, they absolutely have to very strictly adhere to their employment contracts and Northern Irish employment law and regulations, no 'being seen to' about it... What can the IRFU review here? They have no competence or jurisdiction to revisit any aspect of the criminal proceedings, so presumably they will just deal with the unsavoury private messages, within the framework of the IRFU's standard disciplinary procedures. I honestly don't know the legal implications of this all - but the lads hardass solicitors certainly will..

I thought the statements by the players yesterday were very interesting - Jackson's explicitly stated a desire to return to play for Ulster and Ireland, and Olding's implicitly. Unless I'm missing some legal choreography here, this seems to put to bed any idea that there is a pre-determined deal for them to exit stage left. And having made these public statements in advance of the IRFU review, I struggle to see how the IRFU can force them out, if indeed that is what they want to do. For example, I don't see any way in which the IRFU can legally say that they would never be picked for Ireland again.

How to soft-land this then? Take a couple of weeks to trundle through the disciplinary process, arrive at a sanction in line with that previously dealt out for similar infractions, get them back in training, hit the ground running in the next pre-season..

Interesting article: http://www.aocsolicitors.ie/irfu-ulster ... c-opinion/

[darkside lighteside]

There's been very little empathy evident on this thread from an early stage, which somehow for me highlights how incredibly difficult it is to get any allegation of sexual assault off the ground let alone to trial, something backed up by the stats. Many men - and this is, despite not what some might think, not a 'lunatic fringe' view - need to start examining their attitudes to women. Anyone who thinks women go around making 'revenge' allegations or allegations based on 'regret' so that they can spend over a week being grilled in cross examination by four QCs needs their head examined.

I believe it’s possible to feel empathy for the complainant, but also:

(1) to believe that she has been misguided and poorly advised;
(2) to find her testimony unconvincing;
(3) to believe that on the basis of the evidence that was presented in the 8 week trial, that no crime was committed;
(4) to believe that a lot of the reaction in the media and social media towards the players has been wildly ill-informed and disproportionate.

That’s how I would sum up my views. I feel sorry for her – despite her supposed anonymity it feels like I’m the only person in NI who doesn’t know who she is, what she studies, had pictures shared on social media etc etc. I steer clear of utter cesspits on Twitter as much as possible, but I know she has had all kinds of abuse flung at her – and I know from following politicians/journalists on twitter that women do seem to come in for particularly nasty abuse from internet hardmen

[Jackie Brown]

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[Fireworks]

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Any ideas on what this is about. I

[Barry]

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Any ideas on what this is about. I

WhatsApp messages

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[John23]

Allegedly a less than gentlemanly contribution to the WhatsApp group.

[Jackie Brown]

Allegedly a less than gentlemanly contribution to the WhatsApp group.

Indeed a private message that the PSNI decided not to redact to protect the anonymity of someone not involved with their dodgy trial.

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[Aird]

No social media in my day but I am sure that some of comments in our face to face discussion with our mates were probably slanderous / libelous but then there was nothing in writing to rear up at a later time and embarrass us.
It is a saluatry lesson in the dangers of social media and the lack of privacy.