Kimmage running down rugby..

[leinster4life13]

I've heard 3 ex-players (ROG, Jackman & Bressie) say that it needs to be looked into and the cheaters need to be stopped. (By the way, all said that Kimmage is a very good journalist and he should be listened to). Bressie said that he was under a lot of pressure as a 16/17 year old to get bigger, but his mother would not let him use creatine because of the side effects (he noted depression is one of them).

Bressie......creatine......depression.... SMH.. We are entering peak tabloid at this point.

Creatine does not make you bigger.... oh bressie, stick to whatever it is you do

I, for one, am glad this "debate" is happening, hopefully some biology or home ec teachers in secondary schools are educating students on the actual properties of creatine. I, as a 15 year old went on the net and D'ld the documents to educate my parents on the scientific properties of creatine as they fell for this scaremongering, the nation of Ireland is full of illiterates, creatine, cant believe we are still on this a week later.

[janeymac08]

I've heard 3 ex-players (ROG, Jackman & Bressie) say that it needs to be looked into and the cheaters need to be stopped. (By the way, all said that Kimmage is a very good journalist and he should be listened to). Bressie said that he was under a lot of pressure as a 16/17 year old to get bigger, but his mother would not let him use creatine because of the side effects (he noted depression is one of them).

Bressie......creatine......depression.... SMH.. We are entering peak tabloid at this point.

Creatine does not make you bigger.... oh bressie, stick to whatever it is you do

I, for one, am glad this "debate" is happening, hopefully some biology or home ec teachers in secondary schools are educating students on the actual properties of creatine. I, as a 15 year old went on the net and D'ld the documents to educate my parents on the scientific properties of creatine as they fell for this scaremongering, the nation of Ireland is full of illiterates, creatine, cant believe we are still on this a week later.

I'm not going to argue with you about the positives or negatives of creatine, I'm just repeating what Bressie (who was a professional rugby player) said - that he was put under pressure as a kid to be bigger and stronger. Since creatine won't do that then maybe some kids might feel the need to use other stuff which is readily available on the net.

So what do you think of Jackman and ROG's reaction. Are they acting like old women as well voicing their concerns?

[leinster4life13]

ROG and Jackman are saying what they have to say as professionals working in rugby who have to deal with an ignorant and fearful public, I wouldnt expect anyone in rugby to say anything deviating from that line, why offer yourself up as a sacrificial lamb to Kimmages ilk by speaking the truth? What does any pro rugby player or athlete have to gain by speaking honestly and telling it like it is? Nothing, the general public are too thick and the press exist to sensationalise and ruin lives, there is nothing to gain, so keep your mouth shut and agree with the moral crusaders if you want to keep your job and credibility(in the eyes of the great unwashed).

As for Bressie, its easy as a kid to get bigger and stronger, your natural test levels are at their highest. I trained more often and harder as a kid/teenager then I have since, taking nothing but the odd tub of creatine and fish oils and plates and plates of stew, four big meals a day, gym every morning before school, training after carrying around lunchboxes full of food.. Just eat and lift weights, nothing to it. If you aren't growing, eat more, simple.

[the spoofer]

I've heard 3 ex-players (ROG, Jackman & Bressie) say that it needs to be looked into and the cheaters need to be stopped. (By the way, all said that Kimmage is a very good journalist and he should be listened to). Bressie said that he was under a lot of pressure as a 16/17 year old to get bigger, but his mother would not let him use creatine because of the side effects (he noted depression is one of them).

Bressie......creatine......depression.... SMH.. We are entering peak tabloid at this point.

Creatine does not make you bigger.... oh bressie, stick to whatever it is you do

I, for one, am glad this "debate" is happening, hopefully some biology or home ec teachers in secondary schools are educating students on the actual properties of creatine. I, as a 15 year old went on the net and D'ld the documents to educate my parents on the scientific properties of creatine as they fell for this scaremongering, the nation of Ireland is full of illiterates, creatine, cant believe we are still on this a week later.

I'm not going to argue with you about the positives or negatives of creatine, I'm just repeating what Bressie (who was a professional rugby player) said - that he was put under pressure as a kid to be bigger and stronger. Since creatine won't do that then maybe some kids might feel the need to use other stuff which is readily available on the net.

So what do you think of Jackman and ROG's reaction. Are they acting like old women as well voicing their concerns?

Bressie was playing for Mullingar at that stage. Doubt very much that the pressure was more than "you should eat another dinner to put on a few pounds"

[All Blacks nil]

This thread is a perfect example why ZERO TOLERANCE should be adopted. Fifty shades of grey and counting.

There seems to be an acceptance that only young lower level players get caught as they strive to reach higher levels. Easily sorted by out of season testing.
Every schools player registered for cup panels should be under the umbrella. Likewise every player selected on provincial development underage panels should be within the testing regime.
One test on one player, would sort most of them out, one failed test would look after the rest.

It is really disgusting to see someone so flippant and dismissive of the possibility of depression being a side effect of the use of creatine.
I HOPE IT STAYS FINE FOR THAT PARTICULAR POSTER AND THAT HE AND HIS FAMILY ARE SPARED THE POTENTIALLY HORRIFIC CONSEQUENCES OF LIVING WITH DEPRESSION.

POR WILL GIVE OUT ABOUT THE CAPS BUT THIS NEEDS TO BE HIGHLIGHTED AND THAT PARTICULAR POSTER NEEDS TO BE SILENCED.

[the spoofer]

This thread is a perfect example why ZERO TOLERANCE should be adopted. Fifty shades of grey and counting.

There seems to be an acceptance that only young lower level players get caught as they strive to reach higher levels. Easily sorted by out of season testing. Every schools player registered for cup panels should be under the umbrella.
One test on one player, would sort most of them out, one failed test would look after the rest.

It is really disgusting to see someone so flippant and dismissive of the possibility of depression being a side effect of the use of creatine.
I HOPE IT STAYS FINE FOR THAT PARTICULAR POSTER AND THAT HE AND HIS FAMILY ARE SPARED THE POTENTIALLY HORRIFIC CONSEQUENCES OF LIVING WITH DEPRESSION.

POR WILL GIVE OUT ABOUT THE CAPS BUT THIS NEEDS TO BE HIGHLIGHTED AND THAT PARTICULAR POSTER NEEDS TO BE SILENCED.

I trust that you are not referring to me.

[leinster4life13]

Thats a mighty fine strawman you've built yourself @Allblacksnil, the ALLCAPS really reinforce your "point".
If you wish to actually engage your grey matter, there are ample scientific papers on the neurological and antidepressive benefits of creatine, hence why i deride it as a "muscle building" supplement. I know moral outrage is an easy, mentally untaxing position to hold, but less of the censorious Sunday world stuff in your retorts if you please.

[All Blacks nil]

Although most healthy people can take it with no problem, creatine can have adverse effects, particularly when used in excess. Side effects can include:

Weight gain
Anxiety
Breathing difficulty
Diarrhea
Fatigue
Fever
Headache
Kidney problems
Nausea, vomiting
Rash
Stomach upset
Certain drugs, including diabetes medications, acetaminophen, and diuretics, can have dangerous interactions with creatine. Taking the stimulants caffeine and ephedra with creatine can increase the risk of side effects.

Creatine isn't recommended for people with kidney or liver disease, or diabetes. Others who should avoid taking it are children under age 18 and women who are pregnant or nursing. Also don't use creatine if you are taking any medication or supplement that could affect your blood sugar, because creatine may also affect blood sugar levels.

Although creatine is a natural substance, it hasn't been well-studied over the long-term. Researchers still aren't sure what effects it might have on the body, particularly in young people, or how effective it might be.

[Peg Leg]

Although most healthy people can take it with no problem, creatine can have adverse effects, particularly when used in excess. Side effects can include:

Weight gain
Anxiety
Breathing difficulty
Diarrhea
Fatigue
Fever
Headache
Kidney problems
Nausea, vomiting
Rash
Stomach upset
Certain drugs, including diabetes medications, acetaminophen, and diuretics, can have dangerous interactions with creatine. Taking the stimulants caffeine and ephedra with creatine can increase the risk of side effects.

Creatine isn't recommended for people with kidney or liver disease, or diabetes. Others who should avoid taking it are children under age 18 and women who are pregnant or nursing. Also don't use creatine if you are taking any medication or supplement that could affect your blood sugar, because creatine may also affect blood sugar levels.

Although creatine is a natural substance, it hasn't been well-studied over the long-term. Researchers still aren't sure what effects it might have on the body, particularly in young people, or how effective it might be.

I'd agree with you on the young folk, but the rest are side effects that should be researched by the user and a decision made based on the suitability.

[leinster4life13]

Do you know anything about tort, product liability, failure to warn? That's just standard product liability warnings. Look up the science, any of the negatives are mostly associated massive dosages(which, shocker, can be bad for you, try eating a load of salt and see what happens) and improper use by morons, for the purposes of having a proper discussion, the actions of the lowest common denominators should be ignored.

Also, stop with the Helen Lovejoy stuff, its embarassing to read a grown man/woman resort to that line of argument.

[jezzer]

Have to say those two articles have really pissed me off. It'd be wrong to say questions shouldn't be asked, but most of what he says is just pure speculation. One of the very few examples of actual drug use he mentioned was a county age grade player in Devon...so what? That example and the Scott Chambers one don't indicate that there's any problem throughout the sport but the comment about Chambers feeling under pressure to bulk up dresses it up like there is. It mentions one of them buying stuff online, again that hardly indicates that there's a problem throughout the game.

The last paragraph about Ireland is just nonsense. It's said purely for shock factor. Nothing in either article indicates that there's actually a problem in Ireland but he writes as if we all know what'll happen if we dare to take a look under the bonnet. Rubbish.

I don't doubt that doping happens, and my view that it's not widespread is as much speculation as Kimmage's that it is, but if he's going to chase this properly then he should use more evidence than he did with that drivel. Document lots more of those doping failures he mentioned. We haven't a clue what the other transgressors were using. Maybe they were all Ventolin style failures like Frankie Sheahan? Maybe that's the real issue? I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was, and that over the counter stuff is being used when it shouldn't because its easily covered up.

But we don't know what the actual problems could be because the articles are one giant wink and nudge. If he feels there are genuine questions to ask then he should do so and investigate properly, but to me it just sounds like he's paranoid. I'd say if he lost the remote control in his house he'd wonder what people didn't want him to watch.

I doubt you'd have to look too far within rugby to find guys who take banned drugs for performance. Highly doubt it. Kimmage and his French friend obviously feel the same. The reason there isn't any concrete evidence or info in the article is that they don't have any.

So, what this article is is a "come and get me" plea to anyone who might have any info or goss. That's all. He has a platform in the Indo and he knew that it would get internationally circulated once 1) the famous writer who exposed doping in cycling wrote an article and 2) He got a former international player to row in behind him.

This is a fishing trip and Kimmage has just cast the line. I don't think much of the article itself as a piece of journalism but it wasn't designed to answer any questions, only to invite answers to questions.

I don't hold it against Kimmage for bringing the four horsemen of the nutritional apocalypse to the door of my favourite sport. Hopefully the next time he writes something about doping in rugby he'll be able to add something to the conversation. But I'd be shocked if there wasn't a "scandal" out there of decent proportions within rugby. Just look at them.

[leinster4life13]

Just went on Kimmages twitter there, he retweeted a 98fm radio interview by Shane Byrne to provide some evidence, one of his dense hangers on then added "Shane should be asked to provide the evidence that doping doesnt happen in rugby." Yeah, because thats how the law works.....


Its no use engaging in a debate with these morons, just shut up, agree and keep your head down and make promises to increase testing, blah blah blah.

[berniemac67]

kiwis using gear would not be a surprise, nor would anybody else for that matter.

when will the rfu and the daily mail stop running down rugby?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... ng-it.html

ah yes, the daily wail, that bastion of moral superiority and hard hitting investigative journalism. That piece is as devoid of substance as the kimmage one. he says there is a drug problem as for pr purposes one failed test is a problem, especially if there is a media campaign grinding in to gear. This is predictable stuff, if you followed the Aussie nrl/afl news coverage its in the same vein, silence and agreement is really the best position to hold against media led campaigns. journos like to feel important, indulge their egos, pat them on the head and this will die, fight them and it will drag on and on.....

you're quick to run down everybody who posts on here or anywhere else. i'd be interested to see your cv. check over your academic background and athletic pedigree.

i'm not a fan of the mail, but it pays to know the enemy. in this case i beleive they are right. if the rfu head was misquoted or misrepresented we would have heard about it.

i don't disagree with everything you say, but you sure give the impression that you are a pr1ck.

[Avenger]

Quinlan's piece this week is an interesting read.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/a ... -1.2031781

[enby]

very interesting and honest piece by Quinlan. The story about a province reporting suspicions about one of its own players is an extraordinary one

[berniemac67]

Quinlan's piece this week is an interesting read.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/a ... -1.2031781

finally, somebody speaks up credibly in defence of rugby players.

i don't think this resolves the issue (sorry for flogging a dead horse here, but the UK anti-doping figures prove there is an issue in rugby), but reading it was uplifting.

[jezzer]

Don't remember the last time I read as patronising a piece as Bezenech's reply to Alan Quinlan.... It kinds of reads like a windup but incredibly it isn't.

Mon Cher Alan,

It was with great interest that I read your column in Wednesday's Irish Times. It arrived via email with a cover note from the journalist Paul Kimmage: "Alan Quinlan is speaking your language - he just doesn't realise it."

I'm inclined to agree.

We have both spent a lot of time in rugby dressing rooms, Alan; we have both seen how hard players work and "the pain thresholds they've gone beyond" and I agree when you insist that their reputation is important. But is it more important than their health? I think not. And the health of the players is my only concern.

You seem a bit confused on this, Alan, but if you had undertaken some research before taking up your pen you would know that is was never my goal to accuse the players of doping practices. To be honest, I don't even know what that means. No, the argument I've been making is that this obsession with performance, and the increased medical aid, is pushing players over and beyond the limit of what their bodies can support.

To illustrate my point, and to give you a clearer sense of where I'm coming from, let's take the example of a substance you highlight in your piece: "Cortisone is a fact of life for rugby players." You also suggest that it is harmless and only used to treat injury or "an anti-inflammatory that eases the pain of an injury and brings down the swelling and bruising."

D'accord.

But the problem is that this drug, a corticoid, also has the ability to create a euphoric state in the body which allows an athlete to train more without feeling pain or tiredness. When taken in the form of a course of treatment during periods of intensive training, cortisone allows a person to substantially increase his athletic performance. So I have to challenge your assertion that "cortisone doesn't build an once of muscle" or "contribute in any way to bodies getting bigger."

Taken in large quantities, cortisone plays the role of a catalyst allowing the body to increase the production of muscle. This is, of course, on the basis that you train hard but this is already facilitated by the euphoric effects of the drug. It gets worse, mon cher Alan.

You state that cortisone "is on the banned list to save players from themselves." Unfortunately, it is a little more serious than that. When you take cortisone your body stops producing it naturally and when a course of treatment is finished there's a delay before natural production resumes. This results in a collapse in the level of cortisol in the body, equivalent to an adrenal insufficiency. Consequently, your immune system cannot react to a significant trauma, immediately putting the life of that person in danger in the case of a major trauma, cardiovascular stress, haemorrhagic or metabolic shock, bacterial infection or general anaesthetic during surgery.

Cortisone, as you state, is a fact of life for rugby players but I'm not sure that's something to celebrate.

Another argument you present, and one repeated by the majority of people in the game, is the association between the consumption of protein and the production of muscle. The theory goes like this: the more you train, the more you must consume protein and the more you will then produce muscle. But this does not correspond to medical and scientific study.

The human body creates muscle from protein which it 'stabilises' and which permits the body to regenerate muscular fibres and therefore to respond to the demands produced by training the same muscle. The problem is that the human body can only stabilise a maximum of 200gr of protein per day - consume more than this limit and the excess will be eliminated in the natural way. It will also provoke renal problems because of the additional cleaning work demanded of the kidneys due to the surplus protein.

There is, of course, another way to fabricate a lot of muscle in a short period of time. And it's not by training more, as some athletes would have us believe. No, it is achieved by taking products containing steroids or growth hormones and - I almost forgot - the use of cortisone, "a fact of life for rugby players." But enough said about that.

Because while I have highlighted this alarming trend of players gaining weight, I'm not looking to accuse them of anything; my target is the system that's pushing them towards the edge - a system that encourages physical performance through chemical support and seems to have little regard for the long-term health of the players.

I could go further, and offer you some facts to think about, but I've actually written a book on this and I'm not in a position to translate everything now. I think you're right when you state that you would know "if there was ever a systematic doping culture" in rugby.

And I think you've proved in your article that this culture really exists through the experiences involving your butt ("Instead I was given an anti-inflammatory suppository, bent over a bench while the team-talk was going on behind me.") and other parts of your anatomy.

The only thing you can't see, Alan - much like the rugby authorities at this moment - is the dangerous gambles being taken with players' health.

Yours in rugby,

Laurent Benezech

Laurent Benezech is a former French rugby player and author of 'Rugby, où sont tes valeurs?'

[RoboProp]

Kimmage having a cut at BOD now. Classy guy

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I notice BOD hasn't replied....bloody omertà!!

[RoboProp]

I notice BOD hasn't replied....bloody omertà!!

Our Brian has more class than to stoop to Kimmage's level of gutter snipery