European Champions Cup [Most Improved]

[Ruckedtobits]

Who decided on 8 v 7+1?
One competition has 24 teams from 6 countries (not incl Italy)
The other has 11 teams from 2 countries (not incl Fiji).
So without stretching believability too much, we could have
4 nz
3 aus
1 jap
4 sa
And 4 from Europe? 2 or 3 probably France.

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Overall this is a crazy proposal. By far the greatest TV audience for a competition of this nature is in NH and SA. The French Clubs will place no priority on this Tournament in competition with their Top 14. The Premiership Clubs will view it in the same light (but only a substitute) for the Heineken Cup. Unless there is a huge prize fund, Irish Provinces cannot afford to focus on this rather than European success. With World Rugby already seeking to introduce an international calendar of fixtures, this is fantasy football gone mad. And that's before we get into the carbon-production discussion of more flights around the world.

World rugby fans don't need this and I can't see any reason to allow those who have screwed up Super Rugby & European Cup rugby to take control of such a tournament.

[Dexter]

Oh dear... what goes on in McCafferty's brain??

[neill_m]

Rugby seems to like creating new and even more complicated competitions between this and the new Nations Cup starting in 2024 and being played every 2 years which is replacing the traditional international summer tours and of course the changes to the pool stage of the Champions Cup etc.

[jimbobjoe]

The english will lose their minds when none of their teams qualify for a club world cup - cue frothing at the mouth demanding format/qualification changes from the very people who defined the competition.

[ronk]

This is premised on the idea that a single smaller competition can generate more than 2 prestige competitions, and it's almost certainly wrong in a sport where attendance is a significant source of revenue.

The TV and sponsorship deals would need to be in place.

Super rugby expanded recklessly and ended up breaking up. The big soccer clubs tried their own breakaway and got put in their place quickly.

This looks ill thought out, what will the other clubs do while this is on. How do you divide 8 players between 3 countries? Castres and Montpellier: imagine sending their reserves to NZ and Oz for this competition.

[Schumi]

Shambles of an idea.

Groups of 4 where you only play 2 games? So you could win both games with bonus points and get knocked out on points difference. Genius.

All games in one country? Loftus will be jammed for Toulouse v Queensland or Bordeaux jumping for Bulls v Auckland I'm sure. Flying from Dublin to Wellington and back for one game is obviously nuts as well.

Fans of half the teams will be asleep when the games are on too so I don't see where the big TV money is going to come from either.

Maybe I'm overly cynical but I can see some French clubs actively trying not to qualify for this if they'd have to travel away to South Africa or Australia for a month.

[Keith]

The South African sides are surely included in that SR 7? Otherwise that's just comical.

[Flash Gordon]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this is an exciting development. Playing the Crusaders followed by Toulouse, Bulls etc is exciting and the global reach of the tournament will step change commercial revenues for clubs like Leinster. For English premier league soccer clubs, attendances are just props in a the TV theatre, same goes for NFL in London and that's inevitably where the professional game is headed. We as fairly dedicated fans might not like that but professional sport follows the cash. That being said, it could be a death sentence for the Welsh and Italian clubs and potentially Welsh and Italian rugby. It could also consign Connacht and potentially one of the big 3 provinces to tier 2 for the foreseeable. The other thing is that they need to stop messing with formats. I'm a dedicated fan and I can't even follow the formats of the existing competitions they changes so often.

[neill_m]

The South African sides are surely included in that SR 7? Otherwise that's just comical.

South African sides are now part of the NH competitions and Heineken Cup, so they would come from the 8 NH sides. The 7 Super Rugby sides will be 4 Kiwi / 3 Aussies or 5 Kiwi / 2 Aussies etc.

[ronk]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this is an exciting development. Playing the Crusaders followed by Toulouse, Bulls etc is exciting and the global reach of the tournament will step change commercial revenues for clubs like Leinster. For English premier league soccer clubs, attendances are just props in a the TV theatre, same goes for NFL in London and that's inevitably where the professional game is headed. We as fairly dedicated fans might not like that but professional sport follows the cash. That being said, it could be a death sentence for the Welsh and Italian clubs and potentially Welsh and Italian rugby. It could also consign Connacht and potentially one of the big 3 provinces to tier 2 for the foreseeable. The other thing is that they need to stop messing with formats. I'm a dedicated fan and I can't even follow the formats of the existing competitions they changes so often.

Rugby is hugely around small cores pockets of deep support + international fans. That's where the audience is and the most feasible way to grow the game. They rally around tradition, it's why the Lions are more commercially successful than ever.

There are big cities in England and France that don't have major rugby clubs and there are places that are closer to towns that have huge support.

The NZ tour was amazing but it was 8 in the morning! People didn't get out of bed for it. We'd be lucky to get half the TV audience and less support in the grounds for a match at that time that we'd get for a half decent Leinster fixture. No one else's fans would be any better.

Professional sports may follow the cash, but this plan is even wrong by that account. It also undermines the Heineken Cup after a season when the future of the tournament didn't look great due to teams not taking it seriously.

The Heineken Cup was a sporting jewel 10-15 years ago and the same people as part of the same process have it plodding along in mediocrity. Doing this would accelerate it's decline so it ends up replaced by the leagues alone.

[Flash Gordon]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this is an exciting development. Playing the Crusaders followed by Toulouse, Bulls etc is exciting and the global reach of the tournament will step change commercial revenues for clubs like Leinster. For English premier league soccer clubs, attendances are just props in a the TV theatre, same goes for NFL in London and that's inevitably where the professional game is headed. We as fairly dedicated fans might not like that but professional sport follows the cash. That being said, it could be a death sentence for the Welsh and Italian clubs and potentially Welsh and Italian rugby. It could also consign Connacht and potentially one of the big 3 provinces to tier 2 for the foreseeable. The other thing is that they need to stop messing with formats. I'm a dedicated fan and I can't even follow the formats of the existing competitions they changes so often.

Rugby is hugely around small cores pockets of deep support + international fans. That's where the audience is and the most feasible way to grow the game. They rally around tradition, it's why the Lions are more commercially successful than ever.

There are big cities in England and France that don't have major rugby clubs and there are places that are closer to towns that have huge support.

The NZ tour was amazing but it was 8 in the morning! People didn't get out of bed for it. We'd be lucky to get half the TV audience and less support in the grounds for a match at that time that we'd get for a half decent Leinster fixture. No one else's fans would be any better.

Professional sports may follow the cash, but this plan is even wrong by that account. It also undermines the Heineken Cup after a season when the future of the tournament didn't look great due to teams not taking it seriously.

The Heineken Cup was a sporting jewel 10-15 years ago and the same people as part of the same process have it plodding along in mediocrity. Doing this would accelerate it's decline so it ends up replaced by the leagues alone.

I understand what you're saying but club rugby in it's current format is not commercially viable. Provinces don't generate profit, pretty much all the English clubs lose money and the French are kept going by sugar daddies. Sponsorship is a big opportunity - when you have global reach your pool of sponsors increases significantly and the value of those step changes. Bank of Ireland works here because we reach rugby fans in Ireland. In the global arena you can then start to think about Coke, Google, Facebook. Similarly, while not everyone will get up to watch the away game vs the Crusaders, the TV package will be significantly more in cash value terms as a whole. Rugby isn't professional soccer or cricket but it comparable with golf and has a similar demographic which is a global game and has huge money behind it.

[Flash Gordon]

The South African sides are surely included in that SR 7? Otherwise that's just comical.

Think they are counted as NH which makes sense on one level but is more likely to consign a couple of Irish provinces to tier 2 teams and might be the end of Welsh club rugby.

[ronk]

I understand what you're saying but club rugby in it's current format is not commercially viable. Provinces don't generate profit, pretty much all the English clubs lose money and the French are kept going by sugar daddies. Sponsorship is a big opportunity - when you have global reach your pool of sponsors increases significantly and the value of those step changes. Bank of Ireland works here because we reach rugby fans in Ireland. In the global arena you can then start to think about Coke, Google, Facebook. Similarly, while not everyone will get up to watch the away game vs the Crusaders, the TV package will be significantly more in cash value terms as a whole. Rugby isn't professional soccer or cricket but it comparable with golf and has a similar demographic which is a global game and has huge money behind it.

Bring Coke and Google to a global audience? That doesn't set off alarm bells of doom?

TV audiences will pay more for graveyard sports slots? What about pubs?

Welsh rugby fans are really only interested in playing teams closer than the Irish provinces are to each other, plus the 6N against neighbours. French rugby is growing fine playing domestic teams.

Teams are spending money trying to keep up with the big spenders, and the big spenders are spending to eat the smaller ones. Rugby is viable once that stops and it's viable already in plenty of places. There's enormous potential in existing markets. Munster don't need glamour fixtures against Western Force, they need to sell more tickets against the Ospreys.

[paddyor]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this is an exciting development. Playing the Crusaders followed by Toulouse, Bulls etc is exciting and the global reach of the tournament will step change commercial revenues for clubs like Leinster. For English premier league soccer clubs, attendances are just props in a the TV theatre, same goes for NFL in London and that's inevitably where the professional game is headed. We as fairly dedicated fans might not like that but professional sport follows the cash. That being said, it could be a death sentence for the Welsh and Italian clubs and potentially Welsh and Italian rugby. It could also consign Connacht and potentially one of the big 3 provinces to tier 2 for the foreseeable. The other thing is that they need to stop messing with formats. I'm a dedicated fan and I can't even follow the formats of the existing competitions they changes so often.

This isn't following the cash, it's hit and hope on a model that's already failed(super rugby)

The commercial interests will be shared as part of a joint venture, with broadcasting rights to be sold in the domestic markets as well as international rights, and it is expected the revenues will significantly exceed those lost by replacing the final stages of the Champions' Cup.

Sounds like something you heard about 10 years ago?

16 extra games to generate revenue split 5 ways and you can ratio that 6:3:1 or 5:4:1 or whatever. It's peanuts.

You're talking about sports that have saturated their domestic market. Liensters future isn't the Ho Chi Minh city OLSC. It's getting to a place where we have our home games in the Aviva. If we can do that the TV audience will follow.

[ronk]

8 teams works out at 2 SA, 2 French, 2 English, and 2 Irish et al. But it might not.

Whatever split happen it won't have 3 Irish provinces, and that won't wash. 1 club would need to make 3 times revenue to replace the losses of 2 provinces, and that is replicated across the competition. (8 teams instead of 24).

So they'd need to triple the per game revenue to break even before accounting for travel costs. Internationals would have a chance of doing that so why not do that instead. The only alternative is that it's a power play.

[Keith]

The South African sides are surely included in that SR 7? Otherwise that's just comical.

Think they are counted as NH which makes sense on one level but is more likely to consign a couple of Irish provinces to tier 2 teams and might be the end of Welsh club rugby.

It doesn't make sense at all tbh as that would mean 7 NZ/Aussie teams, who are some of the least financially viable clubs in world rugby make it in. If that is the case I can't see that lasting long, even the Japanese clubs would bring far more financial clout.

[Schumi]

16 extra games to generate revenue split 5 ways and you can ratio that 6:3:1 or 5:4:1 or whatever. It's peanuts.

It's not even 16 extra games, it's 4 extra games. You're replacing 15 knock out Heineken Cup games with 16 group games 2 semis and a final.

[heno]

I'm probably the only one who thinks this is an exciting development. Playing the Crusaders followed by Toulouse, Bulls etc is exciting and the global reach of the tournament will step change commercial revenues for clubs like Leinster. For English premier league soccer clubs, attendances are just props in a the TV theatre, same goes for NFL in London and that's inevitably where the professional game is headed. We as fairly dedicated fans might not like that but professional sport follows the cash. That being said, it could be a death sentence for the Welsh and Italian clubs and potentially Welsh and Italian rugby. It could also consign Connacht and potentially one of the big 3 provinces to tier 2 for the foreseeable. The other thing is that they need to stop messing with formats. I'm a dedicated fan and I can't even follow the formats of the existing competitions they changes so often.

Rugby is hugely around small cores pockets of deep support + international fans. That's where the audience is and the most feasible way to grow the game. They rally around tradition, it's why the Lions are more commercially successful than ever.

There are big cities in England and France that don't have major rugby clubs and there are places that are closer to towns that have huge support.

The NZ tour was amazing but it was 8 in the morning! People didn't get out of bed for it. We'd be lucky to get half the TV audience and less support in the grounds for a match at that time that we'd get for a half decent Leinster fixture. No one else's fans would be any better.

Professional sports may follow the cash, but this plan is even wrong by that account. It also undermines the Heineken Cup after a season when the future of the tournament didn't look great due to teams not taking it seriously.

The Heineken Cup was a sporting jewel 10-15 years ago and the same people as part of the same process have it plodding along in mediocrity. Doing this would accelerate it's decline so it ends up replaced by the leagues alone.

I understand what you're saying but club rugby in it's current format is not commercially viable. Provinces don't generate profit, pretty much all the English clubs lose money and the French are kept going by sugar daddies. Sponsorship is a big opportunity - when you have global reach your pool of sponsors increases significantly and the value of those step changes. Bank of Ireland works here because we reach rugby fans in Ireland. In the global arena you can then start to think about Coke, Google, Facebook. Similarly, while not everyone will get up to watch the away game vs the Crusaders, the TV package will be significantly more in cash value terms as a whole. Rugby isn't professional soccer or cricket but it comparable with golf and has a similar demographic which is a global game and has huge money behind it.

You can't compare rugby to soccer or golf on the world stage. The world doesn't know or care about rugby. If you want to get a sense of how to grow the tv audience, look in any of the existing rugby countries and see how much rugby is watched from other countries. How popular is the top 14 in the uk? Or how many of the south African fans are keeping tabs on super rugby pacific? Even a urc game with 2 Welsh teams wouldn't pull an audience here even though they are our closest neighbours and are in the same damn competition.
In London it can be hard to find somewhere showing rugby if its not an irish pub. I was over there on a Heineken cup weekend and went into the rugby tavern on rugby street and they weren't even showing rugby. So this idea that rugby is on the cusp of a popularity explosion across the world is just nonsense. It's much closer to a financial bubble which I fear this competition might hasten us towards.

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[riocard911]

I'm with Ronk and heno on this one! It's a nice idea in principle, the practicalities would lead however to cannibalisation of the smaller teams and playing nations. Everyone below the absolute top tier would be just making up the numbers with no real chance of success. It would lead to a situation similar to soccer in Spain: which also doesn't make financial sense in conventional terms either, but still sees debt-ridden Real Madrid and Barcelona top of the pile year in, year out.

[Dave Cahill]

I'm with Ronk and heno on this one! It's a nice idea in principle, the practicalities would lead however to cannibalisation of the smaller teams and playing nations. Everyone below the absolute top tier would be just making up the numbers with no real chance of success. It would lead to a situation similar to soccer in Spain: which also doesn't make financial sense in conventional terms either, but still sees debt-ridden Real Madrid and Barcelona top of the pile year in, year out.

Is that not sport though, the reality is that the better teams dominate and as a result of that dominance are in a position to dominate further. In the URC, Premiership, Top 14, EPL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, Serie A, La Liga, All Ireland Football Championship, and All Ireland Hurling Championship it's pretty much always the same top teams at the top come seasons end - the rest are just there for the TV money. You'll occasionally get an outlier team that might have a good year, but it's very rare.

The Heineken Cup was great for Ireland, but it didn't work. The Champions Cup was good for Ireland, but it isn't working.

A European competition will never succeed until it passes one key criterion. Every game that's played in Europe is worth more than a game in your domestic league, and that's currently not the case for France or England. The Top 14 TV deal is worth over €100 million a year. The European Rugby TV deal in France is worth €25m. That alone guarantees that the only clubs that will make an effort are the absolute top tier - we see this every year where even a relatively successful club like Castres could not give a cr@p about Europe

That's why European competitions work in Soccer, the money. Shamrock Rovers have already won €1.4 million from their Champions League qualifying campaign, and if they get knocked out they still have a qualifier in the Europa League and if they get knocked out of that, they still have a qualifier for the Europa Conference. Even if they don't win another game they will clear €2m in prize money - that's without gate receipts or TV money. The prize money for winning the entire Champions Cup is €1m. Shamrock Rovers, three-nil down from the first leg of the second qualifying round, have more prize money than La Rochelle, European Champions.