European Champions Cup [Most Improved]

[Dexter]

I'm with Ronk and heno on this one! It's a nice idea in principle, the practicalities would lead however to cannibalisation of the smaller teams and playing nations. Everyone below the absolute top tier would be just making up the numbers with no real chance of success. It would lead to a situation similar to soccer in Spain: which also doesn't make financial sense in conventional terms either, but still sees debt-ridden Real Madrid and Barcelona top of the pile year in, year out.

Is that not sport though, the reality is that the better teams dominate and as a result of that dominance are in a position to dominate further. In the URC, Premiership, Top 14, EPL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, Serie A, La Liga, All Ireland Football Championship, and All Ireland Hurling Championship it's pretty much always the same top teams at the top come seasons end - the rest are just there for the TV money. You'll occasionally get an outlier team that might have a good year, but it's very rare.

The Heineken Cup was great for Ireland, but it didn't work. The Champions Cup was good for Ireland, but it isn't working.

A European competition will never succeed until it passes one key criterion. Every game that's played in Europe is worth more than a game in your domestic league, and that's currently not the case for France or England. The Top 14 TV deal is worth over €100 million a year. The European Rugby TV deal in France is worth €25m. That alone guarantees that the only clubs that will make an effort are the absolute top tier - we see this every year where even a relatively successful club like Castres could not give a cr@p about Europe

That's why European competitions work in Soccer, the money. Shamrock Rovers have already won €1.4 million from their Champions League qualifying campaign, and if they get knocked out they still have a qualifier in the Europa League and if they get knocked out of that, they still have a qualifier for the Europa Conference. Even if they don't win another game they will clear €2m in prize money - that's without gate receipts or TV money. The prize money for winning the entire Champions Cup is €1m. Shamrock Rovers, three-nil down from the first leg of the second qualifying round, have more prize money than La Rochelle, European Champions.

That's interesting, and yes that is sport in a nutshell, particularly professional sport. However, how is this current hail mary play going to improve rugby, I think that the question?

[Dave Cahill]

It's not going to improve rugby unless it happens by accident. That's not the goal. The goal is to improve the bottom line.

[riocard911]

I'm with Ronk and heno on this one! It's a nice idea in principle, the practicalities would lead however to cannibalisation of the smaller teams and playing nations. Everyone below the absolute top tier would be just making up the numbers with no real chance of success. It would lead to a situation similar to soccer in Spain: which also doesn't make financial sense in conventional terms either, but still sees debt-ridden Real Madrid and Barcelona top of the pile year in, year out.

Is that not sport though, the reality is that the better teams dominate and as a result of that dominance are in a position to dominate further. In the URC, Premiership, Top 14, EPL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, Serie A, La Liga, All Ireland Football Championship, and All Ireland Hurling Championship it's pretty much always the same top teams at the top come seasons end - the rest are just there for the TV money. You'll occasionally get an outlier team that might have a good year, but it's very rare.

The Heineken Cup was great for Ireland, but it didn't work. The Champions Cup was good for Ireland, but it isn't working.

A European competition will never succeed until it passes one key criterion. Every game that's played in Europe is worth more than a game in your domestic league, and that's currently not the case for France or England. The Top 14 TV deal is worth over €100 million a year. The European Rugby TV deal in France is worth €25m. That alone guarantees that the only clubs that will make an effort are the absolute top tier - we see this every year where even a relatively successful club like Castres could not give a cr@p about Europe

That's why European competitions work in Soccer, the money. Shamrock Rovers have already won €1.4 million from their Champions League qualifying campaign, and if they get knocked out they still have a qualifier in the Europa League and if they get knocked out of that, they still have a qualifier for the Europa Conference. Even if they don't win another game they will clear €2m in prize money - that's without gate receipts or TV money. The prize money for winning the entire Champions Cup is €1m. Shamrock Rovers, three-nil down from the first leg of the second qualifying round, have more prize money than La Rochelle, European Champions.

Nice breakdown, DC. Nothing there anyone could seriously dispute. However, as my reference to Real and Barca indicates, the financial mathematics don't explain everything. At the end of day the big players will just outmuscle everyone else to get their way by hook or by crook (like the Nigels and na Francaigh stuck it to the Irish rugby provinces, when the latter got ideas above their station on the European stage). Otherwise those two Spanish soccer clubs would have gone the way of Enron or British Leyland decades ago. Or am I missing something?

[Dave Cahill]

Yeah, didn't happen. They couldn't care less about our ideas or our station. They weren't making enough money out of the competition and it was, in many cases, costing them money - so they left. Quite right too.

Every club in Spain is in massive debt, and most of it is to each other. The transfer fees between Spanish clubs are astronomical because no one ever expects to pay or be paid, it's just transference of debt. The amount of money Barca and Real owe is a pittance compared to the amount of money every other club in Spanish league football owes them. It's why they can carry so much debt without really falling foul of FFP. If they went down they would literally take the entire professional game in Spain down with them

[riocard911]

Yeah, didn't happen. They couldn't care less about our ideas or our station. They weren't making enough money out of the competition and it was, in many cases, costing them money - so they left. Quite right too.

Every club in Spain is in massive debt, and most of it is to each other. The transfer fees between Spanish clubs are astronomical because no one ever expects to pay or be paid, it's just transference of debt. The amount of money Barca and Real owe is a pittance compared to the amount of money every other club in Spanish league football owes them. It's why they can carry so much debt without really falling foul of FFP. If they went down they would literally take the entire professional game in Spain down with them

Interesting. Didn't know that about the transfer fee aspect of said debts. Grma!

[ronk]

It's not going to improve rugby unless it happens by accident. That's not the goal. The goal is to improve the bottom line.

i.e. it's something that should not be encouraged by us.

Leinster are tied to the success of the other provinces. It doesn't make sense for us to go it alone.

[ronk]

Yeah, didn't happen. They couldn't care less about our ideas or our station. They weren't making enough money out of the competition and it was, in many cases, costing them money - so they left. Quite right too.

Every club in Spain is in massive debt, and most of it is to each other. The transfer fees between Spanish clubs are astronomical because no one ever expects to pay or be paid, it's just transference of debt. The amount of money Barca and Real owe is a pittance compared to the amount of money every other club in Spanish league football owes them. It's why they can carry so much debt without really falling foul of FFP. If they went down they would literally take the entire professional game in Spain down with them

Interesting. Didn't know that about the transfer fee aspect of said debts. Grma!

Which brings us to why the punishment is so severe, relegation, for going into administration.

[paddyor]

A European competition will never succeed until it passes one key criterion. Every game that's played in Europe is worth more than a game in your domestic league, and that's currently not the case for France or England. The Top 14 TV deal is worth over €100 million a year. The European Rugby TV deal in France is worth €25m. That alone guarantees that the only clubs that will make an effort are the absolute top tier - we see this every year where even a relatively successful club like Castres could not give a cr@p about Europe

That's not actually that bad? Like the money is for the most part for the HCC rather than the Challenge cup. 70 games and 8 teams for 25m compares favourably, though still less, to 188 games and 14 teams. I've always suspected that the TV deals where structured in a way to favour the leagues. Like you give us an extra 10m domestically and we'll throw in the euro rights for an extra 25m etc. Almost certainly the case with the English.

[heno]

It's not going to improve rugby unless it happens by accident. That's not the goal. The goal is to improve the bottom line.

I don't see how this would improve the bottom line though? It seems it will disenfranchise too many of the top teams and fans in europe. To the point that teams pull out and state they wont take up their spot or send the junior team. And fans don't bother attending or watching.

It smells of typical bargain basement ceo type logic where the only idea they have is expand.
Or make a personal fortune with the deal and then feck off leaving everyone else in a mess.

And this isn't just conservative anti new thing complaining. We have super rugby as the template of why this won't work

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Oldschool]

The club participation national breakdown suggests a couple of things.
This proposal is another attempt by the SH hemisphere to tap into the NH money.
It's an initial negotiation position where the NH will be thrown a bone by increasing the breakdown from a 8,7,1 split to a 10, 6, 1 split or something like that.
Then McCafferty "having listened to the feedback from all our stakeholders etc blah more sh....."
There's a deliberate error in the numbers above btw which would be corrected at a later stage.

[Ruckedtobits]

Even with a Lions schedule, SH Unions depend on NH audiences and their share of TV rights. Everybody else should take note and properly assess any proposal which includes SH teams, Club or Country.

[neill_m]

Some interesting comments from the EPCR Chief Executive Anthony Lepage re future venues for Heineken Cup finals.

He said: “We’re trying to have a mix, of traditional and new. We need to serve every fan in the end. It’s something we’re looking at – new territories that we haven’t been to like Italy, going back to Spain, Portugal, Brussels, Germany, Amsterdam.

The Frenchman hinted that that EPCR could also stage semi-final double-headers in these countries as well – as the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) did last season, when the TOP 14 semi-finals were played in Nice’s Allianz Riviera Stadium over two days.

With the five South African teams’ entry into the two EPCR competitions this season, the Frenchman admitted a Finals weekend in South Africa would be a natural progression too.

However, there are no plans to host games in Qatar.

https://www.epcrugby.com/2022/09/12/new ... -weekends/

[Oldschool]

Some interesting comments from the EPCR Chief Executive Anthony Lepage re future venues for Heineken Cup finals.

He said: “We’re trying to have a mix, of traditional and new. We need to serve every fan in the end. It’s something we’re looking at – new territories that we haven’t been to like Italy, going back to Spain, Portugal, Brussels, Germany, Amsterdam.

The Frenchman hinted that that EPCR could also stage semi-final double-headers in these countries as well – as the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) did last season, when the TOP 14 semi-finals were played in Nice’s Allianz Riviera Stadium over two days.

With the five South African teams’ entry into the two EPCR competitions this season, the Frenchman admitted a Finals weekend in South Africa would be a natural progression too.

[*]However, there are no plans to host games in Qatar.

https://www.epcrugby.com/2022/09/12/new ... -weekends/

Give them time, give them time.

[paddyor]

So we're 3 seeds? Matches us with ......

[Ruckedtobits]

Some interesting comments from the EPCR Chief Executive Anthony Lepage re future venues for Heineken Cup finals.

He said: “We’re trying to have a mix, of traditional and new. We need to serve every fan in the end. It’s something we’re looking at – new territories that we haven’t been to like Italy, going back to Spain, Portugal, Brussels, Germany, Amsterdam.

The Frenchman hinted that that EPCR could also stage semi-final double-headers in these countries as well – as the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) did last season, when the TOP 14 semi-finals were played in Nice’s Allianz Riviera Stadium over two days.

With the five South African teams’ entry into the two EPCR competitions this season, the Frenchman admitted a Finals weekend in South Africa would be a natural progression too.

However, there are no plans to host games in Qatar.

https://www.epcrugby.com/2022/09/12/new ... -weekends/

Some may call them interesting comments. I wouldn't, given their source. ECPR have made a creditable job of shredding the reputation of the Heineken Cup which potentially is the greatest Club rugby competition in the world.

Screwing around with the Pool structure, the knockout games and the Final venue are all foolish introverted ideas. Get the structure settled and agreed by the participating Club and then choose a venue with a decent capacity in Europe. Simples.

No more gobs#$te ideas.

[Flash Gordon]

Some interesting comments from the EPCR Chief Executive Anthony Lepage re future venues for Heineken Cup finals.

He said: “We’re trying to have a mix, of traditional and new. We need to serve every fan in the end. It’s something we’re looking at – new territories that we haven’t been to like Italy, going back to Spain, Portugal, Brussels, Germany, Amsterdam.

The Frenchman hinted that that EPCR could also stage semi-final double-headers in these countries as well – as the Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) did last season, when the TOP 14 semi-finals were played in Nice’s Allianz Riviera Stadium over two days.

With the five South African teams’ entry into the two EPCR competitions this season, the Frenchman admitted a Finals weekend in South Africa would be a natural progression too.

However, there are no plans to host games in Qatar.

https://www.epcrugby.com/2022/09/12/new ... -weekends/

Some may call them interesting comments. I wouldn't, given their source. ECPR have made a creditable job of shredding the reputation of the Heineken Cup which potentially is the greatest Club rugby competition in the world.

Screwing around with the Pool structure, the knockout games and the Final venue are all foolish introverted ideas. Get the structure settled and agreed by the participating Club and then choose a venue with a decent capacity in Europe. Simples.

No more gobs#$te ideas.

The one thing that the EPCR doesn't consider are the fans of the clubs that support the competition through the pool stages. Formats are constantly changed, we're being asked to get to places with ridiculously hard access, we're given awful tickets and pathetically small allocations. I'd really like to see supporters clubs from across the tournament getting together and lobbying for something better. Not just with the EPCR but also the sponsors.

In terms of some of these ideas, you kind of wish that they do something like a final in South Africa and that 2 European teams play and nobody shows up.

While the movement around different stadia is interesting, in terms of growing the game it would surely be better to keep the revenue in the game, i.e. play the games in rugby stadia.

Whatever they do the constant chopping and changing is ridiculous. You buy your season ticket or sponsors sign up for a deal and nobody knows what they''re actually buying any more the format changes so often.

[Xanthippe]

So we're 3 seeds? Matches us with ......

This is all speculation until EPCR finally decide to clarify the format for this year but going by past years this is one possible format:

Seedings for this year (French seedings are not confirmed because they haven't announced how the losing semi and quarter finalists will be placed)



Which, if previous formats are followed, could give the following 'TIERS'

[paddyor]

So basically they've decided that instead of having 2 crappy pools 4 crappy pools is an improvement.

[Xanthippe]

So basically they've decided that instead of having 2 crappy pools 4 crappy pools is an improvement.

Yep - it appears there will be 2 x URC, 2 x T14 and 2 x Prem in each pool. We will play each of the T14 and Prem teams once - 1 x T14 + 1 x Prem at home and 1 x T14 and 1 x Prem away and the other URC team will play the opposite to what we do. I assume (hope) that if you play the higher ranked T14 team at home then you also play the lower ranked Prem team at home which 'could' produce something like this (assuming URC are 1a and 1b, T14 are 2a and 2b and Prem are 3a and 3b)

Week 1
1a v 2a
3b v 1b
3a v 2b

Week 2
3a v 1a
2a v 1b
2b v 3b

Week 3
2b v 1a
1b v 3a
3b v 2a

Week 4
1a v 3b
1b v 2b
2a v 3a

[Keith]

Congrats to the prem, they now have over half of their league automatically qualified to the main comp every year, while simultaneously reducing our leagues representation over the years.