Munster 2014/2015

[munster#1]

you know quite well what my issue is, just admit that munster are becoming more and more reliant on leinster developed players and in the future will target players from leinster more and more.

Well I can't tell the future, so I can't comment on that, but in the past we have as much of a track record as Leinster have when it comes to targeting players from other provinces.

We haven't actually taken too many Leinster players from leinster, even Jones was on his way to connacht before munster stepped in.

Munster will only be able to take players who want to go. Like munster when it came to jj, if Leinster can not hold on to players they want to keep, then that issue is with Leinster.

[Not_Today]

@munster#1 goreyguy seems to have a huge issue with Leinster players moving to an Irish province, however he doesn't seem to have an issue with Leinster using players like Cronin, Reddan or Boss.

[johng]

I think his issue is poaching academy guys in fairness. As famously stated every time this comes up, the last players we got directly from Munster were hogan and keogh 9 years ago.

I personally have no issue with other provinces getting the overspill from our academy rather than losing them to England or France. As long as they are happy to go and are not coerced. And as long as we keep the best players. Or at least the ones we thi k are best at the time.

[meinster]

I think his issue is poaching academy guys in fairness. As famously stated every time this comes up, the last players we got directly from Munster were hogan and keogh 9 years ago.

I personally have no issue with other provinces getting the overspill from our academy rather than losing them to England or France. As long as they are happy to go and are not coerced. And as long as we keep the best players. Or at least the ones we thi k are best at the time.

John G in voice of reason shocker. All things Irish rugby are cyclical. Since the dawn of professional rugby. Leinster academy is over subscribed right now in certain positions right now, but it's laughable to think Leinster academy servea only Leinster right now (as is the case with Munster et al).

[munster#1]

But john, what academy players have we poached? Coghlan Jordan is the only one that I can think of.

Oliver has just joined our academy, but he is being signed from the ail, as he is not in the Leinster academy.

It is worth remembering that Munster can only sign a player who wants to leave.

[johng]

But john, what academy players have we poached? Coghlan Jordan is the only one that I can think of.

Oliver has just joined our academy, but he is being signed from the ail, as he is not in the Leinster academy.

It is worth remembering that Munster can only sign a player who wants to leave.

I never said you poached any. I only pointed it out as the issue that gg (and probably many more) had. Someone else accused him of not wanting ANY Leinster players moving and then naming players we signed from Connacht, Wasps and Ulster.

[johng]

John G in voice of reason shocker.

Hey. I'm shocked that you're shocked.

[munster#1]

But john, what academy players have we poached? Coghlan Jordan is the only one that I can think of.

Oliver has just joined our academy, but he is being signed from the ail, as he is not in the Leinster academy.

It is worth remembering that Munster can only sign a player who wants to leave.

I never said you poached any. I only pointed it out as the issue that gg (and probably many more) had. Someone else accused him of not wanting ANY Leinster players moving and then naming players we signed from Connacht, Wasps and Ulster.

No I question gg, if his belief that it was desperate times at munster was in relation to munster signing players, which is when I listed signings that Leinster had made, or was his issue that munster were signing Leinster players.

I never accused him if not wanting Leinster players moving, he is the one who admitted that his/her issue was that munster were actively attempting to sign Leinster players.

Please do not miss represent mine or gg's thoughts. I do not know your relationship with gg, but he/she made it clear that he/she does not want players moving to munster, with no reference to academy players as you implied was his belief.

[johng]

Ok then. MY INTERPRETATION OF gg's issue was that he is fearful of/unhappy with the perception that David Nucifora will scatter the Leinster academy graduates around all 4 provinces.

He and many others are pi$$ed off that despite all 4 academies receiving similar money to fund their academy ours would be plundered to give them players.

Again that is MY INTERPRETATION.

I do not see it in those terms but he has aatthe very least got a point

[munster#1]

Ok then. MY INTERPRETATION OF gg's issue was that he is fearful of/unhappy with the perception that David Nucifora will scatter the Leinster academy graduates around all 4 provinces.

He and many others are pi$$ed off that despite all 4 academies receiving similar money to fund their academy ours would be plundered to give them players.

Again that is MY INTERPRETATION.

I do not see it in those terms but he has aatthe very least got a point

There are no grounds for your opinion at all, what players has nucifora taken from the Leinster academy and moved?

It is inevitable that if any academy produces more players than they have contracts available, then those players will be looked at by other clubs within Ireland and elsewhere.

I am completely unaware of any player being instructed to move provinces, but Imo it should be something that does happen. The best example of when this should have happened was with Dave foley. Leinster have signed numerous 2nd rows all while a very talented player was stuck behind a long list of quality second rows.
He's now in a position where he has had to wait several years to break through, much like Ryan.

Foley in theory could of being playing hc rugby for the last 3 season if he were moved to Leinster, and may well have saved Leinster a lot of money and a niq spot.

[johng]

Jesus man what are you on about? There are plenty of "grounds for my opinion" (not that i need any as it's just an opinion) it has been reported in the paper. Your friend and mine Donal Lenehan has called for it publicly. Where have you been? Get out from under that rock....

[munster#1]

Jesus man what are you on about? There are plenty of "grounds for my opinion" (not that i need any as it's just an opinion) it has been reported in the paper. Your friend and mine Donal Lenehan has called for it publicly. Where have you been? Get out from under that rock....

Journalists like Donal Lenihan call for things all the time, it is his job to give his opinion.
This does not mean that the irfu have started forcing kids to leave the Leinster academy and join other academies or teams.

Are you aware of any player who the irfu have forced into a move?

[johng]

No. Not at all. You seem to be on a different track all together.

You seem to be taking "reported in the paper that Nucifora might be tasked with moving academy graduates about" as "this has been going on for years" or something.

You have me confused now.

[munster#1]

No. Not at all. You seem to be on a different track all together.

You seem to be taking "reported in the paper that Nucifora might be tasked with moving academy graduates about" as "this has been going on for years" or something.

You have me confused now.

But until you know that it has happened, then it is nothing more than the media trying to sell papers.

What is your opinion on this hypothetical situation, are you fir or against it?

[johng]

But until you know that it has happened, then it is nothing more than the media trying to sell papers.

Fair enough. I have heard tell of it outside of the papers too though.

What is your opinion on this hypothetical situation, are you fir or against it?

My opinion is that there is a happy medium there. I agree in principle that Irish Rugby should be the beneficiary of the output of all of the Academies.

There is no hard and fast black and white answer. Like the NIQ situation, each example must be looked into on it's own merits. This can cause some frustration where provinces and players do not have any hard and fast rules to work by though. Pienaar and Kirchner signed in their same positions after they hit 30 but Nathan Hines only given a 1 year offer resulting in him legging it to Clermont for example.

There are situations where it may benefit a player to go abroad and learn, in order to take knowledge back to the provinces. (Classic example Leo and Jeno to Leicester)

There are situations where it benefits a player to move to another province (Perhaps Jackman or Flannery to Connacht?) to get gametime in their position.

And there are situations where players should stay and fight it out for their home jersey. (pick any one of several back rows in Leinster or second rows in Munster etc.)

You have to start with the player themselves. Flannery has frequently said that he would "never have gone to Leinster" I could not have seen Jennings going to Munster. There are loads more examples.

You have to be careful not to break the bonds between a player and his home province if he feels strongly about it. At the end of the day they have to cross the white line and fight it out for their team. Some players are happy to do that with a team that they can buy into and feel welcome in. Others can't get past ingrained rivalries. Neither is right or wrong. It's a personal thing.

Providing it starts with the wishes of the player and that approaches are with the consent of both provinces concerned I don't have a problem.

Skulduggery and pulling a fast one on either player or province..... not so much.

[munster#1]

I think we are in agreement on this one.

I see massive benefit in resources being used wisely. The biggest winner in all this would be team Ireland.

I do not see it being a draft system, where teams compete to give the young players the best deal, but if one academy has an excess of players in one position, then it would make sense to identify this early, and allow the other academies a chance to offer trials.

[johng]

I should also have added. Nucifora or anyone else pushing players round provinces like pawns on a chessboard would also not meet with my approval. However I have absolutely no reason to think that anyone wants to do that either.

[Golf Man]

As others have pointed out this is not a one size fits all approach. Leinster will always produce more players - a simple fact of having double the population of Munster (with a far higher level of schools rugby)

For me there are three strands

1. Established Pro players - personally I think this should be open season - if Munster want to target a Leinster player or vice versa then let them - its a professional game and if players want to move then let them (whether that's to another province or abroad or whatever)

2. Academies - Home province should have first refusal on players entering academies, but should work together and offer transfers across academies if players have stiff opposition in their home academy. Obviously if anyone is being dropped from an academy he should be offered to the others. Possibly something in it that if you come through an academy that you have to commit to that team for 2 years - At that point there would be a very good indication of where the player was headed

To my mind these two are pretty easy to manage - involve the players in it, letting them know really where they stand - I would imagine that is pretty much the way it is done now.

3. NIQs - the difficult one for me -> I think its very difficult to have hard and fast rules. Atr the moment we tend to have big names (who have obvious benefit and make the teams more competitive) and projects (not really a fan of these myself, although the likes of Payne, Strauss have worked and Stander looks to be heading that way). Personally I think they have it pretty right at the minute and you have to treat each player/transfer on its own merits -> while we absolutely want to develop players, there is no sense in affecting the provinces competitiveness either - difficult balancing act

I do think that when provinces are stacked with talented players that you may have to look at suggesting transfers (obv the players have to agree). This can happen with young guys (Jordan Coughlan for example has SOB, Heaslip, Ruddock & Murphy Conan, Ryan & McLaughlin, not to mention his academy peers - he is benefitting from moving, Leinster aren't affected, Munster are probably taking a punt and filling a gap ( at least I hope that the idea)). Leinster obviously have three high quality tight heads, Ulster have plenty of centres (albeit injury prone), Munster currently aren't stacked anywhere but obviously in the past at lock, when players should have been encouraged to move (you could also look at Munster's No.8's - in October we will have three IQ 8's - Stander (player of the year) O'Donhue (Academy Player of the year & prob best forward to come through in maybe 5 years (since POM I think)) and Copeland (Irish international). Ulster don't have huge options at 8 and their backrow in general lacks depth - Copleand to Ulster wiould make sense

[Peg Leg]

Would a draft system for the academy players who don't make the cut be any use?
Agree with most of G mans post, but I wouldn't like to see provinces offering senior contracts to coax an academy player from another province before he's out of his time there.

[Golf Man]

Would a draft system for the academy players who don't make the cut be any use?

Agree with most of G mans post, but I wouldn't like to see provinces offering senior contracts to coax an academy player from another province before he's out of his time there.

Personally I don't think there needs to be a draft system - the numbers are small and the guys being dropped from academies/squads aren't entitled to another team/chance. The coaxing of academy players with full contracts is a tough one. Academy contracts essentially mean nothing - every province probably has about 6/7 guys in each year of their academy and its a bit of a lottery (ie you could stand out but if the province is stscked in that position then you could well be jettisoned => eg Max Abbott was starting hooker last year for Ireland U20s this year playing in a JRWC semi final - he was released from the Munster academy this week). Being offered a pro contract in this environment is difficult to turn down - perhaps a greater degree of certainty for the player (ie a commitment to 2 years in the academy) with restriction on other teams signing other academy players until 6 months from the end of the academy contract (that said this could lead to some exceptional academy players being abused).

I do think the loan system should be used more (and this could be used for academy guys as well)