ROG

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All Blacks nil
Mullet
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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

While accepting the fact that the Leinster Branch is working hard to spread its net and I commend its work

it remains a fact that SOB is the ONLY home grown member of the Leinster Squad that did not come through a recognised schools rugby playing school.

Of the 23 players listed on the Leinster website in this years Leinster Academy only 5 come from outside the "schools system"

A lot done , much more to do.

Leinster Schools is a great breeding ground and prepares guys in most ways for a potential professional career, with conditioning, lifestyle environment, coaching , competition etc all being top class. If the Youths system was as advanced, one established pro player a year would be a minimum target
Last edited by All Blacks nil on January 20th, 2014, 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ROG

Post by Broken Wing »

All Blacks nil wrote:While accepting the fact that the Leinster Branch is working hard to spread its net and I commend its work

it remains a fact that SOB is the ONLY home grown member of the Leinster Squad that did not come through a recognised schools rugby playing school.

Of the 23 players listed on the Leinster website in this years Leinster Academy only 5 come from outside the "schools system"

A lot done , much more to do.
It's been 5 years since Leinster 1st won a Heineken Cup. How quickly do you think people go from being interested in a sport to making the provincial academy? How quickly do you think the coaching in clubs in towns up and down the province improves to the point where underage players are catching the eye of the academy? Even with all that, why shouldn't the academy be full of players from the schools system since they are the players getting the most coaching and time with coaches?
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All Blacks nil
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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

Leinster Schools is a great breeding ground and prepares guys in most ways for a potential professional career, with conditioning, lifestyle environment, coaching , competition etc all being top class. If the Youths system was as advanced, one established pro player a year would be a minimum target

I agree that the best players should be in the Academy. I just feel that Irish rugby is missing a trick by not having a structure similar to the Schools rugby for youths rugby. As it is a school's player has the coaching, competition, exposure and big game experience before he leaves school. It is up to the branches to provide something similar for youths rugby.

Was rugby not played outside Dublin before Leinster won the Heineken Cup ? Were people outside Dublin not interested in rugby before 2009 ?

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Dave Cahill
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Re: ROG

Post by Dave Cahill »

All Blacks nil wrote:While accepting the fact that the Leinster Branch is working hard to spread its net and I commend its work

it remains a fact that SOB is the ONLY home grown member of the Leinster Squad that did not come through a recognised schools rugby playing school.

Of the 23 players listed on the Leinster website in this years Leinster Academy only 5 come from outside the "schools system"

A lot done , much more to do.
Goal posts moved there - from farm to club to school to 'recognised school' - it'll be section B school with burgers on the menu next!

The schools system whether by luck or design is currently the best system for producing professional rugby players. The top players in the top rugby schools are to all intents and purposes professional athletes from the age of 16 and are delivered to the academies prepared for a professional lifestyle. Much like professional soccer there is the occasional late bloomer, but they are the exception. There are roughly 160 professional senior players in Ireland. A good 90% of them, with the possible exception of Connacht due to the smaller number of schools, came through the schools system in their respective provinces with accompanying age grade representative honours - those who didn't are simply outliers. Sean had offers from other schools, most players in the regional development squads do, he chose not to take one up, others like Denis Hurley do. The schools system works like Irish rugby in microcosm. The best players are funnelled towards the best teams. Take your own province as an example, are there any more than a handful of players that didn't come through what would be known in Leinster as a Section B school?

Rockwell, Castletroy, P.B.C., St. Munchin's, Crescent College Comp., C.B.C, Ardscoil Ris, Glenstal Abbey I believe are the Section B equivalent schools in Munster
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Re: ROG

Post by Broken Wing »

All Blacks nil wrote:Leinster Schools is a great breeding ground and prepares guys in most ways for a potential professional career, with conditioning, lifestyle environment, coaching , competition etc all being top class. If the Youths system was as advanced, one established pro player a year would be a minimum target

I agree that the best players should be in the Academy. I just feel that Irish rugby is missing a trick by not having a structure similar to the Schools rugby for youths rugby. As it is a school's player has the coaching, competition, exposure and big game experience before he leaves school. It is up to the branches to provide something similar for youths rugby.

Was rugby not played outside Dublin before Leinster won the Heineken Cup ? Were people outside Dublin not interested in rugby before 2009 ?
You know well that it was played outside Dublin before the '09 cup win. The point I was making was that the success of the Leinster team from '09 on has resulted in a growth in rugby and interest in rugby. I could just as easily ask if people in Limerick are less interested in rugby now as the attendance at Munster games seems to suggest. Of course the numbers are back up now, and people who have never engaged me in conversation about rugby before are now telling me how easy Munster will find it against Toulouse. Success draws a crowd and Leinster's success in claiming at least one trophy in 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013 has resulted in a growth in interest outside the traditional areas. This interest will, hopefully, result in more and more players from outside the schools system making the grade and raising the bar for their peers.
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Dave Cahill
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Re: ROG

Post by Dave Cahill »

Ultimately the schools system will be superceded by the provincial academies becoming post Junior Cycle second level establishments.
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All Blacks nil
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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

Dave Cahill wrote:
All Blacks nil wrote:While accepting the fact that the Leinster Branch is working hard to spread its net and I commend its work

it remains a fact that SOB is the ONLY home grown member of the Leinster Squad that did not come through a recognised schools rugby playing school.

Of the 23 players listed on the Leinster website in this years Leinster Academy only 5 come from outside the "schools system"

A lot done , much more to do.
Goal posts moved there - from farm to club to school to 'recognised school' - it'll be section B school with burgers on the menu next!

The schools system whether by luck or design is currently the best system for producing professional rugby players. The top players in the top rugby schools are to all intents and purposes professional athletes from the age of 16 and are delivered to the academies prepared for a professional lifestyle. Much like professional soccer there is the occasional late bloomer, but they are the exception. There are roughly 160 professional senior players in Ireland. A good 90% of them, with the possible exception of Connacht due to the smaller number of schools, came through the schools system in their respective provinces with accompanying age grade representative honours - those who didn't are simply outliers. Sean had offers from other schools, most players in the regional development squads do, he chose not to take one up, others like Denis Hurley do. The schools system works like Irish rugby in microcosm. The best players are funnelled towards the best teams. Take your own province as an example, are there any more than a handful of players that didn't come through what would be known in Leinster as a Section B school?

Rockwell, Castletroy, P.B.C., St. Munchin's, Crescent College Comp., C.B.C, Ardscoil Ris, Glenstal Abbey I believe are the Section B equivalent schools in Munster
Quite a few actually Dave

Dave Foley
James Cronin
Johnny Holland
Luke O Dea
Tommy O'Donnell
Dave O'Callaghan

Four of the above played HC this season three of whom played yesterday ( 2 starters 1 sub)
As in Leinster many players switched schools for the senior cycle when offered scholarships/places by certain schools, but are not included above. Keith Earls is a notable example of this. Not sure who else, but I will check it out and post it later. The six above all remained outside the schools system.

In the Academy 4 of the 17layers brought up in Munster came from outside the 'b' schools.
Last edited by All Blacks nil on January 20th, 2014, 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ROG

Post by Broken Wing »

All Blacks nil wrote:Of the 23 players listed on the Leinster website in this years Leinster Academy only 5 come from outside the "schools system"

A lot done , much more to do.
All Blacks nil wrote:In the [Munster] Academy 5 of the 18 players brought up in Ireland came from outside the 'b' schools.
So, a lot done, much more to do?
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ronk
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Re: ROG

Post by ronk »

All Blacks nil wrote:
In the Academy 4 of the 17layers brought up in Munster came from outside the 'b' schools.
So Leinster have more players from outside the traditional schools in their academy even though we have a better school system?

:lol:

All Blacks nil
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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

One thing that people forget when considering the ROG/JS debate is the RWC2011.
Sexton after 2 full and successful seasons as Leinster's first choice deservedly went to the World Cup as first choice outhalf.
In the first game v USA his kicking boots deserted him and his 2/6 from the tee was poor. Ireland won 22-10
In the second game v Australia JS again kicked poorly and was 2/5 when ROG replaced Darcy ( JS to inside centre) and took over the kicking duties with the score at 9-6 and nine points gone begging. ROG with 2/2 successful kicks at goal closed out the match.
ROG started the next game v Russia ( MOTM) and kept his place for the rest of the tournament (including a comprehensive win over Italy in what was a must win game) and finished the RWC with kicking stats of 18/21. JS from the tee was 7/14.

Certainly I feel that if Johnny had kicked well enough to keep his place, ROG would have quietly retired from international rugby after that World Cup.
JS was the undisputed number one going to the RWC and if he had returned ROG's kicking stats could have finished ROG's career there and then. Incidentally ROG never started another international test match despite post RWC2011 being the man in possession and the perception of favouritism towards him by DK.

Sexton started every match in the 2012 Six Nations when Ireland's campaign was halted in its tracks at the first hurdle losing to 23-21 to Wales. JS kicking 4/7 (8 points left behind) and 1/2p kicking 3/4 ( 2 points missed) proving the difference in the end.
ROG was needed as back up unless someone else can enlighten me as to which other international class outhalf was available in January 2012.
ROG had a great career with both Munster and Ireland and steered both sides to unprecedented success. As he said himself his last action for Ireland was a terrible one but his contribution to Munster and Irish rugby has been immense.
Last edited by All Blacks nil on January 29th, 2014, 1:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: ROG

Post by Broken Wing »

All Blacks nil wrote:One thing that people forget when considering the ROG/JS debate is the RWC2011.
I'm doing my best to forget that world cup.
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deco
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Re: ROG

Post by deco »

I always thought that THE one part of RADGES game was his kicking. Seems not, according to this study he wasn't even good with the boot:

http://www.thescore.ie/ken-quarrie-plac ... 5-Feb2014/

Cue outrage from The Munster Fanboys
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All Blacks nil
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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

A
Last edited by All Blacks nil on February 16th, 2014, 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

THE NEW ZEALAND Rugby Union’s Senior Scientist, Ken Quarrie, has completed a study which analyses goal kicking success in the international game from 2002 to 2011.
Quarrie, who first came on board with the NZRU in 2000 as Injury Prevention Manager, has previously undertaken important projects on tackle injuries and spinal scrum-related problems.
His latest study examined 582 international Test matches over 10 seasons, with place kickers ranked on a raw success percentage basis that was then altered to take into account the location of the kick on the pitch, the stadium in which the player was kicking and the context of the kick itself [the time in the game and the score].
South African out-half Morne Steyn came out on top of the list, with Federico Todeschini of Argentina and Dan Carter of New Zealand placing in second and third respectively.
The highest-ranked Irish kicker was David Humphreys in 16th, who kicked at an 80% success rate over 113 attempts at goal. Ronan O’Gara came in at 35th with a conversion rate of 72% from 352 efforts from the tee.
Paddy Wallace lies 40th overall, having kicked 77% of his 22 attempts as a place kicker for Ireland, while Jonny Sexton is ranked 91st on Quarrie’s list with a 59.6% success rate from 62 attempts over 17 games.
The study also outline
d the best kickers under pressure, with Australian James O’Connor topping that area ahead of Steyn and fellow Wallaby Stirling Mortlock. O’Connor’s actual success rate was 70%, but that figure rose to 76% in ‘clutch’ kicking situations.

From an Irish point of view, Ronan O’Gara came in 40th on the list of kicks under pressure with a return rate of 73%, while Sexton rocketed up the rankings to 43rd with a success rate of 73% too.
Humphreys dropped to 87th when ranked on those ‘clutch’ scenarios, while Paddy Wallace was in 52nd.

Quarrie’s fascinating study also outlines the stadiums in which place kicking had the worst success rates, with Westpac Stadium in New Zealand topping the list. Ireland’s Lansdowne Road was ninth in the rankings, with a return rate of 71% for kickers over the decade in question.
The top 10 place kickers overall
1. Morne Steyn [South Africa]
2. Federico Todeschini [Argentina]
3. Dan Carter [New Zealand]
4. Francois Steyn [South Africa]
5. Chris Paterson [Scotland]
6. Gavin Henson [Wales]
7. Jonny Wilkinson [England]
8. Dan Parks [Scotland]
9. Toru Kurihara [Japan]
10. Seremaia Baï [Fiji]

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Re: ROG

Post by All Blacks nil »

New Zealand Rugby’s Senior Scientist Ken Quarrie, who analyses huge amounts of match data and then compiles papers on aspects injury prevention and performance, has most recently completed a comprehensive study on goal kicking.

Using 582 Tests from 2002 to 2011,players were initially ranked on a percentage altered to account for kick location on the ground, the context of the match (based on score difference and time elapsed) and which stadium the kicker was at.

Wellington’s Westpac Stadium and Otago Stadium were ranked first and third for worst kicking venues with 67 and 68 percent respectively.

New Zealand has more venues in the top ten kicking graveyards (five) than any other nation.

Loftus is the most successful ground with a 77 percent rate along with Millennium Stadium, with Waikato Stadium the highest ranked Kiwi ground with a 76 success mark for kickers.

Overall, 72% of the 6769 kick attempts were successful.

Forty-five percent of points scored during the matches resulted from goal kicks, and in 5.7% of the matches the result of the match hinged on the outcome of a kick attempt.

There was an extremely large decrease in success with increasing distance and a small decrease with increasingly acute angle away from the mid-line of the goal posts.

All Blacks first five-eighth Dan Carter was ranked third overall on the list, behind first placed Morne Steyn (South Africa) and second ranked Federico Todeschini (Argentina).

Springbok Frans Steyn was fourth on the list, thanks to his success with prodigious kicks, for while he only kicked 59% of his 37 attempts, his successful strikes were taken at average 49 metres out, as opposed to 32 to 33 metres for the bulk of kickers.

Other capped All Blacks on the list were Andrew Mehrtens 13th, Steve Donald 20th, Piri Weepu 21th, Nick Evans 24th, Luke McAlister 27th, Leon Macdonald 41st, Colin Slade 94th, Aaron Mauger 97th and finally Carlos Spencer who was ranked 101.

Note the study account for kicking for points only.

There was then a further formula applied, taking into account the pressure involved, applying the above factors and then adding ‘clutch’ style factors.

“We rated the importance of the kick, based on the scores at the time and how far into the match,” Quarrie said.

“In general things become more important if the outcome is more doubt

“The most important kick then essentially is the one taken on the 80th minute with the match on the line.”

So Dan Carter, while rated as one of history’s great kickers (with an actual percentage of 77% out of 563 attempts), drops to 76th on the pressure list.

James O’Connor (Australia), Steyn and Stirling Mortlock (Australia) represent the top three kickers under extreme pressure.

Quarrie stressed that the study wasn’t definitive as a selection tool and that some gaps between players were decimmal, although he said Steyn stood out.

“When it came to pure numbers, Morne’s success rate was remarkable,” he said.

“However when looking at the players on the list, Carter stands out due to his other attributes not covered in this study, such as defence.”

The study also revealed that no team had overcome a deficit of greater than 13 points over the 582 Tests.

Notable examples outside of the study’s window where the comeback was greater was the 1999 Rugby World Cup semi-final against France (14 points), the 2001 Test against Ireland (14 points) and the 2013 international where the All Blacks came back from 19 points down to defeat the Irish.
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brotheroffrank
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Re: ROG

Post by brotheroffrank »

https://www.the42.ie/ronan-ogara-la-roc ... 5-Jun2019/

he will be able to buy tailored shorts and boating shoes, get the missus a Brown Thomas bag and take a sail boat to Cork from La Rochelle!

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Re: ROG

Post by wixfjord »

Probably a good move overall. He's closer to home, in a head coach role and with a side who are at the top echelons of both Top 14 and Europe. Not a bad place to live either I'd say.

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