Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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blockhead
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by blockhead »

Angelsea Angst wrote:It seems that the Welsh Regions want to join the breakaway English clubs to form an Anglo Welsh League. This would be devastating for the Pro14.
The Welsh eh? The entire nation has Stockholm syndrome. Everytime it's mentioned (possiblilty of joining the english clubs) they swoon. At least play hard to get folks.
Talk about unrequited love. :lol:
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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

blockhead wrote:
Angelsea Angst wrote:It seems that the Welsh Regions want to join the breakaway English clubs to form an Anglo Welsh League. This would be devastating for the Pro14.
The Welsh eh? The entire nation has Stockholm syndrome. Everytime it's mentioned (possiblilty of joining the english clubs) they swoon. At least play hard to get folks.
Talk about unrequited love. :lol:
the welsh were offered £4million (per club) to join the anglo welsh league by BT sports about 8 years ago. that is what they were getting anyway from the pro14 (pro12 back then) and european comps. they didn't bite back then and I think it is unlikely for them to do it anytime soon. Why risk joining a shaky premiership breakaway when the pro14 appears to be growing slowly but solidly.

That said...if the welsh are smart, they might spot that the welsh clubs would "complete" a premiership breakaway and make it more attractive for TV rights bidding - 6 english clubs in a breakaway league isn't enough. And based on the last few years, it seems the welsh aren't the brightest bulbs in the box - the welsh club scene is in tatters, despite the national team doing well. In other words, they have the talent, but, a poorly managed club scene.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by dropkick »

I read that BT sport's might be dropping the premiership and the premiership are expecting a lot less TV money with their new contract. Also, the RFU have a 4 year deal to give the premiership £25m every year. After that it's dependant on RFU finances and the RFU are expecting a massive drop in revenues this year. That's a double blow for premiership clubs and most were struggling before covid-19.


Some might call it a nice dose of karma. They sabotaged the Heineken cup so the could use it as a sweetner for their last TV deal with BT.


I certainly wouldn't like to see any club go out of business but we've seen what they're like when they're in a position to bully so no harm seeing them struggle.


The French clubs are also in a bit of financial trouble. That will be good for the sport because it's the French who are mainly driving up most of the wage inflation. They're still in a good position, better than the English clubs.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by FLIP »

dropkick wrote:I read that BT sport's might be dropping the premiership and the premiership are expecting a lot less TV money with their new contract .........


Some might call it a nice dose of karma. They sabotaged the Heineken cup so the could use it as a sweetner for their last TV deal with BT.
The biggest dose of karma and richly deserved.

Maybe they should disband the PRL and let the RFU run things instead.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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Look out Itchy, he's Irish

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by domhnallj »

Sarries are going to have to get really creative in their cheating from now on

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52661940
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by blockhead »

Strong stuff from Burgess
Speaking in an extensive House of Rugby interview, Burgess candidly gave his version of what allegedly happened during those months between him earning selection in Lancaster’s World Cup squad and his hurried departure from Bath back into the arms of the Rabbitohs in Sydney.

“I went into the World Cup and the politics went through the roof,” he said. “You can all read between the lines. I think Mike Ford wanted the England job and George playing ten, and Owen (Farrell) at ten and me twelve, there was a lot going on behind the scenes that people don’t quite understand that influenced a lot of outside opinions.

“England picked me at twelve and that is where the lines started getting murky and the politics were played and I was just right in the middle of it. It doesn’t take a genius to work out. We played the first game against Fiji and Brad Barritt and JJ (Jonathan Joseph) were twelve and 13. JJ got injured and then for game two against Wales they started Owen at ten, me at twelve and Brad at 13 and put George on the bench whereas in game one George was at ten.

“This is where it got interesting because George is on the bench against Wales and George is upset with me during the week thinking I had orchestrated this. I went, ‘How could I orchestrate that?’ Mike’s then done his thing in the press and it just got a bit murky. Then we lose the game against Wales which was bananas, I really don’t know how we lost…

“I just felt that people behind the scenes were playing a deeper game. The biggest thing was that Mike Ford wanted the England coaching job, so his job was to try sabotage Lancaster and his decision making and his coaching methods.

“With George being his son, that infiltrated into the camp. After me starting against Wales, my relationship with George completely changed. He wouldn’t talk to me, he was a bit sulky and Mike was a bit shady in the background. We lost, fell out of the World Cup and that’s when I went back to Bath and I couldn’t sit in the same room as Mike. I had to tell him I couldn’t play for him anymore, I’d lost respect for him.

“I came back from World Cup, went straight into his room and said, ‘Mike, I don’t want to play for you anymore, I don’t trust you. I think you’re playing games around my back. You used me a pawn in your game of chess. I can’t put my boots on and play for you every week’.

“His response was, ‘Take ten days off, come back, maybe you’ll change’. I went to Spain for 10 days… he asked me if I changed my mind and I said, ‘No, I’m, serious here, I’m going. Let’s get the deal done’.

Burgess was contracted with Bath through to the end of 2015, but Rabbitohs owner Russell Crowe secured his release overnight and he was quickly on his way back to Australia. While he was flying, Ford did media in England that was uncomplimentary of Burgess.

“This is probably going to cause a bit of trouble but I’m not trying to cause trouble,” continued Burgess, who retired from NRL at the end of the 2019 season in Australia while the Ford father and son combination has since reunited at Leicester Tigers. “When I left Bath, I left quietly, I didn’t do any media… then when I was in the air, that is when Mike had his couple of jabs in the press.

“I had to laugh because I’ll never forget Mike’s face when I said to him, ‘Mike, I don’t respect you anymore. I don’t. I think you’re a bit of a snake’ and I’ll never forget the quiver I got from him. I had just landed back in Sydney and had to front a press conference which was huge in Australia and that [Ford’s allegation of Burgess not being fully committed] was a question.

“I didn’t realise he had said that and I laughed. ‘Mike Ford said that?’ They said, ‘Yeah’. It’s funny but I didn’t respond to it because what’s the point? He showed his true colours, he showed me who he was and I told Bruce Craig in fact, the owner at Bath. I told Bruce, ‘Mike is not the guy who will take you to glory, he won’t take you to a championship, he is too selfish’. Six months later they sacked him.

“If you look at Mike’s career you will go, there’s a bit of a pattern of what Mike comes in and does. He comes underneath somebody, jumps up and gets the top job after a few years and then goes somewhere else.

“Me saying that to Bruce at the time: we had just made Premiership final the year before (2014/15) but look at the team we had. We had the most amazing team but we still couldn’t get the job done at the time because it wasn’t about winning, it was about individuals’ ego rather than just being successful as a company, a club or a franchise.”
2 things that were as obvious then as they are now;
Mike Ford is a spoofer as a head coach.
George Ford is a very good player, but not on the same planet as Owen Farrell.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by ronk »

blockhead wrote: George Ford is a very good player, but not on the same planet as Owen Farrell.
Ford doesn't get picked ahead of Farrell much.

I prefer Farrell at 12 when the team is strong. He went well with Sexton for the Lions.

Sometimes I barely notice that Ford is playing.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by JB1973 »

Mike Ford has form for undermining his bosses doesn't he?

Ford is a good player, lovely hands and is certainly test class

Farrell is a better player , and would be my lions 10 (I know sexton is class to)

Burgess was a great rl player, but did nothing in union to warrant his test call up and when he played union at test level he didn't look up to it

I'm not saying he doesn't have valid points about ford but he should never have been in that England team based on his ability as a union player

His profile and his wages got him in there, same as they did with guys like henry paul in the past

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by blockhead »

Premiership Rugby has confirmed clubs unanimously voted to cut the cap on senior wage bills from £6.4m to £5m from the start of the 2021-22 season, before being restored to current levels by the 2024-25 season at the latest.
On top of the new £5m ceiling, clubs are able to nominate two players whose salaries fall outside the total, but this will reduce to one from 2022-23.
Does this mean even more pain for Saracens if they want to get back into the prem? They would have to offload some players at the end of next season to get under the £5m cap, players they dont need for next season, so why keep them now?
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by ronk »

blockhead wrote:Premiership Rugby has confirmed clubs unanimously voted to cut the cap on senior wage bills from £6.4m to £5m from the start of the 2021-22 season, before being restored to current levels by the 2024-25 season at the latest.
On top of the new £5m ceiling, clubs are able to nominate two players whose salaries fall outside the total, but this will reduce to one from 2022-23.
Does this mean even more pain for Saracens if they want to get back into the prem? They would have to offload some players at the end of next season to get under the £5m cap, players they dont need for next season, so why keep them now?
Unanimous. Owners unanimously voted to pay players less. And they did it for 3 years. If everyone does it then players just don’t get paid so much.

That was supposed to be the reason for the salary cap but they kept listening to the few clubs who wanted it higher.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by paddyor »

That leaves them well positioned to absorb the revenue loss from the CVC rights sale.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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Players are talking about strike action

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... d-pay-cuts

English rugby's top club players threaten strike action over pay cuts
‘Individuals strong-armed to sign reduced terms’
Players’ union rejects cuts and warns of walkout
Robert Kitson

Wed 10 Jun 2020 13.08 BSTLast modified on Wed 10 Jun 2020 20.40 BST
England’s leading club players are considering strike action in an increasingly bitter row over the imposition of permanent wage cuts.

The Rugby Players Association chairman, Mark Lambert, said clubs are showing “an absolute disregard” for his members who are being placed under “undue pressure” to sign contracts on reduced terms by Thursday week.

Many clubs have already imposed temporary salary reductions of 25% prompted by the Covid-19 lockdown that has halted the season. With club owners having voted this week to reduce the annual salary cap by £1.4m from 2021-22, putting an additional squeeze on squad wages, the RPA cannot rule out a walkout.

“We very much see it as the last action and something you would look to avoid for the benefit of all stakeholders, because it is an extreme move,” said Lambert, the long-serving Harlequins front-row forward.

“But it is difficult for us to entirely rule out any options when we’re in the situation where we’ve got members with existing, fixed-term contracts essentially being strong-armed into thinking they have no choice but to sign an inferior contract.”

Lambert said Premiership Rugby’s desire to make permanent 25% wage cuts has been “unanimously rejected” by the players’ board and has warned of legal action. “From the outset of this crisis there has been an absolute disregard for the players and the values of the game,” he said.

“Players at some clubs are now being served with ultimatums and being put under undue pressure to sign amended contracts through the manufactured deadline of 18 June.

“To be clear, this is a totally unacceptable way to operate. Players are the lifeblood of the game and should be treated with respect. This latest situation could have been entirely avoided with a collaborative and transparent approach and we now find ourselves heading towards a significant legal dispute unless meaningful and genuine dialogue takes place urgently. In the meantime the RPA position remains unequivocal: the RPA is opposed to permanent cuts for our members.”

There is also disquiet that clubs are trying to force through pay cuts just months after collecting a £10m windfall apiece from the private equity firm CVC. Many clubs are still struggling to stay afloat financially and the RPA’s chief executive, Damian Hopley, said last month that his members were worried about the wider outlook for their sport.

“We’ve been on calls to some clubs where there is a very genuine concern the club might not last the year based on the current financial projections,” Hopley said. “We don’t want to have a sport where there are only six clubs left at Christmas.”

Hopley is adamant that collective agreement is the best way forward. “Everyone recognises the world is a very different place to three months ago but the most important thing a player has is his contract.”

The Premiership season is to resume on 15 August, with the majority of players having started to return to training.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

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The RPA have their heads in the sand over this, they can be as opposed to pay cuts for their members as they like . It is going to happen, their employers eg the clubs are getting no revenue in so they cannot pay the same wages as they could when they were having revenue.

"Everyone recognises the world is a very different place to three months ago but the most important thing a player has is his contract.”

That sounds a bit like everything has changed but we have our contracts so we are not going to change, well you either change or your employers go bust and you'll have no jobs.

As for striking lets see them go ahead and do it, the clubs are not playing at the moment anyhow so won't be losing any revenue , lets see how long a strike lasts when you have no pay

Rugby salaries are going to tumble in the next few years and tbh that's not such a bad thing, it was getting out of hand especially in France. Hopley and co better get their heads around the fact and learn to live with it

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Morf »

JB1973 wrote:Rugby salaries are going to tumble in the next few years and tbh that's not such a bad thing, it was getting out of hand especially in France. Hopley and co better get their heads around the fact and learn to live with it
I think the wage disparity has greatly increased. I think it's reasonable to suggest the majority of players had far more modest increases in pay and might feel a slash of wages by 20-30% across the board quite acutely.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by JB1973 »

Morf wrote:
JB1973 wrote:Rugby salaries are going to tumble in the next few years and tbh that's not such a bad thing, it was getting out of hand especially in France. Hopley and co better get their heads around the fact and learn to live with it
I think the wage disparity has greatly increased. I think it's reasonable to suggest the majority of players had far more modest increases in pay and might feel a slash of wages by 20-30% across the board quite acutely.

We are all going to feel the pain of reduced wages and increased unemployment for the next few years, and that will include professional sports people.

I'm afraid like the rest of us they are going to have to just deal with it, what's the average salary for a first team player in the English prem?

According to the below article it's £120k, so the guys in the prem are going to be in a far better position to carry those cuts than your average man in the street.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-pers ... by-player/

Without being harsh no one is forcing them to be rugby players if it is not financially viable for them to do so they will just have to get part time jobs or even change occupations

Don't get me wrong there are guys on less and I feel for them but it's still a well paid job compared to most

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by Peg Leg »

JB1973 wrote:
Morf wrote:
JB1973 wrote:Rugby salaries are going to tumble in the next few years and tbh that's not such a bad thing, it was getting out of hand especially in France. Hopley and co better get their heads around the fact and learn to live with it
I think the wage disparity has greatly increased. I think it's reasonable to suggest the majority of players had far more modest increases in pay and might feel a slash of wages by 20-30% across the board quite acutely.

We are all going to feel the pain of reduced wages and increased unemployment for the next few years, and that will include professional sports people.

I'm afraid like the rest of us they are going to have to just deal with it, what's the average salary for a first team player in the English prem?

According to the below article it's £120k, so the guys in the prem are going to be in a far better position to carry those cuts than your average man in the street.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-pers ... by-player/

Without being harsh no one is forcing them to be rugby players if it is not financially viable for them to do so they will just have to get part time jobs or even change occupations

Don't get me wrong there are guys on less and I feel for them but it's still a well paid job compared to most
I am not sure there are many roles out there that require you to effectively give up your future mobility for. I don't begrudge them one cent.
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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by ronk »

Maybe if these were temporary cuts during a crisis. These are permanent pay cuts that lock in for the next round. The salary agreement ends after 4 full seasons. Many of these guys careers could be over before then.

I'd fully sympathize with them seeing oit their contracts in full (post COVID) and then taking a hit on renewal. The owners signed irresponsible contracts and there are clear and strick rules that punish clubs.

When it was a temporary emergency it was one thing. Now if the owners want to force wages down they will have to pay current commitments.

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by hugonaut »

ronk wrote: I'd fully sympathize with them seeing oit their contracts in full (post COVID) and then taking a hit on renewal. The owners signed irresponsible contracts and there are clear and strick rules that punish clubs.
Absolutely. It is going to be tough for some squads to maintain morale and cohesion. Kyle Sinckler signed a deal with Bristol worth somewhere near £500k p.a. [source: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/rug ... sh-3626356 ] before the lockdown, and that is what he should be paid, because that's what he's contracted to be paid. But it's very plausible that he could be playing in the front row with team-mates earning 20% or 15% or 10% of what he's on who are playing far more games for the club.

According to this Telegraph article [source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... squeezing/ ], 32% of Premiership players earn between £30k & £70k and a further 23% earn between £70k & £140k. You would imagine that the lads in the 23% bracket are the ones who will feel the crunch most.

Lads who went into the 2019-20 season looking to negotiate their next deal will have either been very lucky, or very unlucky. If they got the deals done in December/January/February, they have probably signed at the highest point of the rugby market for a decade. If they didn't get their deal signed before the lockdown, they'll have missed that highpoint by a matter of months and their offer will be very much lower. Lads who are up for renegotiation next season will be in the same boat.

This article explains the new cap quite well: https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/n ... y-cap-mean and this one fills in some other areas: https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/n ... y-cap-mean .

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Re: Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

Post by hugonaut »

Morf wrote:
JB1973 wrote:Rugby salaries are going to tumble in the next few years and tbh that's not such a bad thing, it was getting out of hand especially in France. Hopley and co better get their heads around the fact and learn to live with it
I think the wage disparity has greatly increased. I think it's reasonable to suggest the majority of players had far more modest increases in pay and might feel a slash of wages by 20-30% across the board quite acutely.
Wage disparity definitely increased. There's no cap on the wages of 'franchise players' [two per club] in the Premiership, so somebody like Piutau can earn £900k/£1m p/a [rumoured] without affecting the cap.

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