Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

[paddyor]

WIllis is heading for Ulster

[Morf]

You seem to be conflating the use of universities as a skill booster for players and as a training base with the use of universities as feeder teams, which is what is being suggested. Leinsters use works well, as we control our players and development. What is being suggested is something hands off entirely.

I wasn't fully supporting Healy's suggestion.

Just saying that universities can and do have the professional competence and facilities to be a support to premiership development.

[paddyor]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/where-it ... ong-wasps/

From 10m to 90m in debts......

[naraic]

You seem to be conflating the use of universities as a skill booster for players and as a training base with the use of universities as feeder teams, which is what is being suggested. Leinsters use works well, as we control our players and development. What is being suggested is something hands off entirely.

In general you are probably correct but the problem is that the premiership clubs as a while complain about the academies.

The premiership gets roughly 28 million a year from the rfu. As a part of that each club is required to release internationals for certain outside of window events. Also each club is required to have an academy that fits certain requirements.

28 million doesn't sound like a lot to me when divided amoung 13 clubs. Especially when that is split between international release and academy.

The rfu believe that they are paying most of that money for an academy system while the extra release is small fry.

The clubs constantly complain that the academies cost too much and are loss making. The clubs further complain that their investment in the academy doesn't benefit them as their academy graduates go to other clubs chasing money.

In reality the clubs complaints are complaints for the sake of form to drive up rfu funding. Rfu seem to be threatening to take the academy system and funding away from the premiership and put it in the universities.

IMO threats to put the academies in the universities are empty threats but they were made simply because the union need an alternative if the clubs want more funding for their academies. If you need an extra 10 million for academies someone else will do it for us for less.

A deal will be done that benefits the unions and the clubs. The current system is probably not sustainable.

The costs and benefits of the current academy system needs to be considered. As do the benefits to the clubs and value obtained by the clubs.

[riocard911]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/where-it ... ong-wasps/

From 10m to 90m in debts......

Great article. The comments underneath are additionally informative too. Thx for posting.

[ronk]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/where-it ... ong-wasps/

From 10m to 90m in debts......

Great article. The comments underneath are additionally informative too. Thx for posting.

The line about merging 2 loss making businesses and adding £2m a year in interest was a fairly good summary.

They really were taking high stakes bets with other people's money. And what harm but there was a route to profit. They got big infusions of cash from BT, the RFU and CVC. All they had to do was not spend like they were Leeds United.

[ronk]

In all this I haven't seen CVC get much, if any, blame.

It's somewhat fair in that clubs have made their own mistakes.

Latest one I read in the Guardian is that they're still not sure about whether promoted teams can join the Prem. Forcing everyone to upgrade facilities has caused much of these debt problems.

[Morf]

In all this I haven't seen CVC get much, if any, blame.

It's somewhat fair in that clubs have made their own mistakes.

Latest one I read in the Guardian is that they're still not sure about whether promoted teams can join the Prem. Forcing everyone to upgrade facilities has caused much of these debt problems.

There's predatory lending and reckless borrowing to use a banking analogy.

I feel it's more the latter than the former. The clubs were already badly run when CVC bought out future profits.

[dropkick]

You seem to be conflating the use of universities as a skill booster for players and as a training base with the use of universities as feeder teams, which is what is being suggested. Leinsters use works well, as we control our players and development. What is being suggested is something hands off entirely.

In general you are probably correct but the problem is that the premiership clubs as a while complain about the academies.

The premiership gets roughly 28 million a year from the rfu. As a part of that each club is required to release internationals for certain outside of window events. Also each club is required to have an academy that fits certain requirements.

28 million doesn't sound like a lot to me when divided amoung 13 clubs. Especially when that is split between international release and academy.

The rfu believe that they are paying most of that money for an academy system while the extra release is small fry.

The clubs constantly complain that the academies cost too much and are loss making. The clubs further complain that their investment in the academy doesn't benefit them as their academy graduates go to other clubs chasing money.

In reality the clubs complaints are complaints for the sake of form to drive up rfu funding. Rfu seem to be threatening to take the academy system and funding away from the premiership and put it in the universities.

IMO threats to put the academies in the universities are empty threats but they were made simply because the union need an alternative if the clubs want more funding for their academies. If you need an extra 10 million for academies someone else will do it for us for less.

A deal will be done that benefits the unions and the clubs. The current system is probably not sustainable.

The costs and benefits of the current academy system needs to be considered. As do the benefits to the clubs and value obtained by the clubs.

The problem with clubs having academies is there is little loyalty to the clubs. London Irish have apparently one of the best academies but it doesn't stop other clubs taking their players. So why bother. It's a different scenario to here in ireland where players are usually loyal to their own province.

[hugonaut]

The problem with clubs having academies is there is little loyalty to the clubs. London Irish have apparently one of the best academies but it doesn't stop other clubs taking their players. So why bother. It's a different scenario to here in ireland where players are usually loyal to their own province.

Flash Gordon on this board has a good knowledge of the players London Irish have produced in the recent past. I couldn't name them all off the top of my head, but I know that Jonathan Joseph, the Armitage brothers and Joe Cokanasiga were all in their academy.

[riocard911]

In all this I haven't seen CVC get much, if any, blame.

It's somewhat fair in that clubs have made their own mistakes.

Latest one I read in the Guardian is that they're still not sure about whether promoted teams can join the Prem. Forcing everyone to upgrade facilities has caused much of these debt problems.

There's predatory lending and reckless borrowing to use a banking analogy.

I feel it's more the latter than the former. The clubs were already badly run when CVC bought out future profits.

Now that you mention CVC, I could imagine a situation arising, where they push for a Prem/URC amalgamation, in order to protect their own financial interests.....

[The Doc]

In all this I haven't seen CVC get much, if any, blame.

It's somewhat fair in that clubs have made their own mistakes.

Latest one I read in the Guardian is that they're still not sure about whether promoted teams can join the Prem. Forcing everyone to upgrade facilities has caused much of these debt problems.

There's predatory lending and reckless borrowing to use a banking analogy.

I feel it's more the latter than the former. The clubs were already badly run when CVC bought out future profits.

Now that you mention CVC, I could imagine a situation arising, where they push for a Prem/URC amalgamation, in order to protect their own financial interests.....

CVC don't care. They didn't "invest" in rugby and they have no interest in any of the clubs or profits. They simply paid for a fraction of the commercial revenue of the league going forward. So for an upfront fee they get a third of the league's commercial revenue (not each clubs)

They don't care if all the clubs go bust and they invent new franchises. Or if clubs get promoted to fill the schedule. They just want the BT cash.

And unless merging leagues increased overall revenue, they will have no interest. And I don't see, frankly, what the premiership brings incrementally to the direction of the URC revenue-wise



Sent from my LE2123 using Tapatalk

[paddyor]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/where-it ... ong-wasps/

From 10m to 90m in debts......

Great article. The comments underneath are additionally informative too. Thx for posting.

The line about merging 2 loss making businesses and adding £2m a year in interest was a fairly good summary.

They really were taking high stakes bets with other people's money. And what harm but there was a route to profit. They got big infusions of cash from BT, the RFU and CVC. All they had to do was not spend like they were Leeds United.

If you slice off the existing 10m plus the 35m for the Stadium and working capital it's 45m (maybe add the 13m they got from CVC) they ran up in 7 years. Say COVID is 40-60% of that over 2 years. So 3-5m per year they were losing. They reportedly signed BEale for 1.2m aong with Le Roux, Gopperth, Nathan Hughes and even lured own Marty Moore over. That's a pretty big chunk of the annual losses. The Salary cap increases were a disaster for them.

In all this I haven't seen CVC get much, if any, blame.

It's somewhat fair in that clubs have made their own mistakes.

Latest one I read in the Guardian is that they're still not sure about whether promoted teams can join the Prem. Forcing everyone to upgrade facilities has caused much of these debt problems.

For my sins I listened to the egg chasers podcast. They were eating humble pie about how good the GP is for I think the first time. Fairly scathing about the CVC deal(like giving crack to addicts or something to that effect) which isn't new for them tbf. As an aside CVC did organise a marketing fund of 20m and then Covid hit. Pretty muchI said it was LI up next. Initally coy but then dropped the pretense and just starting saying could we see LI playing Ealing next season or even in the URC.

Had an interesting story about Sale looking for a new stadium and finding Man Cities acadmey stadium which has an 8.5k capacity. It was perfect for them(location, transport, amenities) and met all the Prem Rugby requirements except being under 10k so they ended up in the AJ bell stadium. Good stuff Mark McCafferty!

[IanD]

BBC News - Worcester Warriors: Ex-owners Jason Whittingham & Colin Goldring disqualified from being directors
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63300042

Shenanigans

[blockhead]

There's predatory lending and reckless borrowing to use a banking analogy.

I feel it's more the latter than the former. The clubs were already badly run when CVC bought out future profits.

Now that you mention CVC, I could imagine a situation arising, where they push for a Prem/URC amalgamation, in order to protect their own financial interests.....

CVC don't care. They didn't "invest" in rugby and they have no interest in any of the clubs or profits. They simply paid for a fraction of the commercial revenue of the league going forward. So for an upfront fee they get a third of the league's commercial revenue (not each clubs)

They don't care if all the clubs go bust and they invent new franchises. Or if clubs get promoted to fill the schedule. They just want the BT cash.

And unless merging leagues increased overall revenue, they will have no interest. And I don't see, frankly, what the premiership brings incrementally to the direction of the URC revenue-wise



Sent from my LE2123 using Tapatalk

Can't remember the CVC deal exactly now but didn't it require an increase in revenue from previous years for CVC to make money? They get 27% up to say £70m, get 35% if revenue goes above £85m and 50% if it goes above £100m.
If that's the case then they will be a while getting their money back, especially in a 10 league prem.

[blockhead]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/ ... 33697.html

The problem here is time. The longer a possible buyout/takeover takes, the more games they will miss this season and any comeback looks increasingly unlikely. Also, players will be jumping as soon as they get an decent offer.

[ronk]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/ ... 33697.html

The problem here is time. The longer a possible buyout/takeover takes, the more games they will miss this season and any comeback looks increasingly unlikely. Also, players will be jumping as soon as they get an decent offer.

The problem is the administrators let everyone go rather than making cuts. Now they can't fulfil fixtures or bring in any revenue.

The prem have torpedoed the latest buyout by going for an asset on the cheap, which means that Wasps basically have nothing but the name and a slot in the Championship.

But then Wasps could have doing that. They signed Koch and he was still to make his debut.

They might limp on in the championship, but that now depends on debt forgiveness after the stadium is sold (or not).

[paddyor]

How Worcester accounted for teh CVC money. Not great Bob

[Keith]

What will happen to their European spots if they reduce to 10 teams? Surely their allocation would have to drop.

[tigerburnie]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/ ... 33697.html

The problem here is time. The longer a possible buyout/takeover takes, the more games they will miss this season and any comeback looks increasingly unlikely. Also, players will be jumping as soon as they get an decent offer.

They might limp on in the championship, but that now depends on debt forgiveness after the stadium is sold (or not).

The stadium was leased by Wasps, Coventry Council own it and Coventry Football were tenants of Wasps, who may also end up homeless.................again, there must be something in the water round that part of the country.