Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

[MylesNaGapoleen]

What's the point of the irfu investing money in a urc franchise based in another country vs a 5th province based in Ireland? Is it attracting young English born players into a feeder system for team ireland? Is it to give Irish expats games to watch? I just don't see the point.
It the premiership was a huge pie that we wanted a slice of or something, maybe, but obviously that's proving not to be the case.

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I can see the logic behind LI joining URC or becoming a "5th province", as you put it, in the premiership. the LI brand is really strong and there are a lot of Irish in London that would get behind the club if it started to build on the Irish connections again. Can't see IRFU taking it over but I can see it as a great platform or outlet for academy players to get game time in prem or URC. The American Redbridge (Spelling?) consortium are already paying the wages so it's their club now.

Premiership are planning a reboot as a 10 team league next year. currently 11. RFU won't let it happen but I would love to see London Irish join the URC and buy into a stadium so they're not losing money every year.

[Keith]

What's the point of the irfu investing money in a urc franchise based in another country vs a 5th province based in Ireland? Is it attracting young English born players into a feeder system for team ireland? Is it to give Irish expats games to watch? I just don't see the point.
It the premiership was a huge pie that we wanted a slice of or something, maybe, but obviously that's proving not to be the case.

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It would be lunacy for anyone to invest in a top flight rugby club in London that doesn't own a stadium. Why do some people think the IRFU have this excess of cash and players? I look at the squad that Connacht have and the one that Ulster have going into next season and think the IRFU are currently making serious cutbacks... The game really isn't all that healthy outside of Leinster.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

What's the point of the irfu investing money in a urc franchise based in another country vs a 5th province based in Ireland? Is it attracting young English born players into a feeder system for team ireland? Is it to give Irish expats games to watch? I just don't see the point.
It the premiership was a huge pie that we wanted a slice of or something, maybe, but obviously that's proving not to be the case.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

It would be lunacy for anyone to invest in a top flight rugby club in London that doesn't own a stadium. Why do some people think the IRFU have this excess of cash and players? I look at the squad that Connacht have and the one that Ulster have going into next season and think the IRFU are currently making serious cutbacks... The game really isn't all that healthy outside of Leinster.

You're right. IRFU aren't the ones to step up. RFU wouldn't allow it anyway. But you are also right about buying a stadium. I think the american consortium can see the value in the LI Brand and potential. owning a stadium is paramount. I can see it being useful for Irish rugby. We're losing talent because of a bottleneck in Leinster and if there's an option to go play with London Irish who have a "special relationship" with the IRFU...why not? It didn't do Tadhg Beirne any harm to go play for Llanelli, because he couldn't break into the Leinster squad and come back to Ireland.

[Dave Cahill]

London Irish are a well-run amateur club, have a lovely ground, and are, as they always were, a focal point for the rugby-interested Irish community in London.

This is just a branded franchise. There'll be another one along in a minute.

[ronk]

What's the point of the irfu investing money in a urc franchise based in another country vs a 5th province based in Ireland? Is it attracting young English born players into a feeder system for team ireland? Is it to give Irish expats games to watch? I just don't see the point.
It the premiership was a huge pie that we wanted a slice of or something, maybe, but obviously that's proving not to be the case.

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"Anyone who is willing to work and is serious about it will certainly find a job. Only you must not go to the man who tells you this, for he has no job to offer and doesn't know anyone who knows of a vacancy. This is exactly the reason why he gives you such generous advice, out of brotherly love, and to demonstrate how little he knows the world."
B. Traven, The Treasure of the Sierra Madre

[heno]

What's the point of the irfu investing money in a urc franchise based in another country vs a 5th province based in Ireland? Is it attracting young English born players into a feeder system for team ireland? Is it to give Irish expats games to watch? I just don't see the point.
It the premiership was a huge pie that we wanted a slice of or something, maybe, but obviously that's proving not to be the case.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

It would be lunacy for anyone to invest in a top flight rugby club in London that doesn't own a stadium. Why do some people think the IRFU have this excess of cash and players? I look at the squad that Connacht have and the one that Ulster have going into next season and think the IRFU are currently making serious cutbacks... The game really isn't all that healthy outside of Leinster.

You're right. IRFU aren't the ones to step up. RFU wouldn't allow it anyway. But you are also right about buying a stadium. I think the american consortium can see the value in the LI Brand and potential. owning a stadium is paramount. I can see it being useful for Irish rugby. We're losing talent because of a bottleneck in Leinster and if there's an option to go play with London Irish who have a "special relationship" with the IRFU...why not? It didn't do Tadhg Beirne any harm to go play for Llanelli, because he couldn't break into the Leinster squad and come back to Ireland.

I'm not sure about this supposed bottle neck where there is a cohort of players are being lost to rugby because they cant get a spot in any of the provinces and then can't get a contract in the championship or pro d2. But theoretically, let's accept that there may be a need for a 5th province at some point.
I still don't see why you would want that team to be based outside the territory you operate in. Sure, there are a lot of Irish people in London. But there's also a lot of Irish people in Cork, or north Co Dublin, or Drogheda/Dundalk, etc.
Also would you expect a team populated by journey men players from Ireland fighting with zebre for last place in the urc attract significant attention from the Irish community in London or be anywhere near commercially successful?

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[Flash Gordon]

This bit at the end

The holes that are being dug are too deep to fill without a fundamental change. Appreciate that they might be open to change but they actually need to come up with a vision and plan for change, it won't just fall out of thin air. A real lack of leadership there. I'd love to see the IRFU take the London Irish franchise and create an Exiles club in the URC but I think that would need RFU approval.

More generally in English rugby, they could copy our model of course and that would make a lot of sense but it took us 10 years to implement that and for it to bed in. I know poor leadership and no small measure of arrogance caused this but you've got to feel for the players, coaches and fans.

I know you have an affiliation to London Irish and it is a drum you have been banging for a long time but seriously why would the IRFU take over an non entity of a organisation with no real link back to any of the myriad of clubs it emerged from who have no home ground and are £30 million in debt?

That's a lot of rugby balls for kids back home.

There's no way the IRFU would take on that debt for sure but the club is on the verge of bankruptcy. Either build a new Exiles franchise (ideally on the amateur club) or buy the insolvent professional club at virtually nothing and Strip the assets - there's no ground but their training facilities are exceptionally good (hench the productivity of the academy) you could also drive the link back to the amateur club and the Irish community. The advantages from an IRFU perspective are:

1. Recruit diaspora/Irish qualified players (there is already an Exiles organisation)
2. The expansion to a MUCH bigger market in London that the entirity of Ireland - run it like Exeter and turn a profit
3. Development opportunity for blocked players in the Irish system or players who need game time development or access to specific coaching/development
4. Development opportunity for academy players
5. Career option for players who want to play abroad but know they will lose Ireland options if they go - players who've gone to Irish or other English or French clubs are not always has beens or never weres...
6. Irish players get to play in a league with a different style and culture form which we benefit and learn
7. Development opportunity for Irish coaches

Irish have had 300 internationals on their books over the years, their Academy is incredibly productive and there's a long club history in a big rugby market. Now I would be very doubtful, this has been mooted for years, Keith Wood was a big advocate and nothing ever happened and I'm not sure the RFU would sanction but I'm also not sure it's worthy of being deemed an opportunity without benefits.

[heno]

I'm not saying investing in London Irish has zero potential benefits. The OP idea was for the new team to play in the URC. My question is, if the IRFU found x million behind the sofa why would they chose to invest in a foreign entity vs setting up a 5th province at home.

The only thing of note that you've said is that London is a bigger market, but it also has a hell of a lot of competition for that market between the other London based rugby clubs, soccer and everything else it has

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[Keith]

The holes that are being dug are too deep to fill without a fundamental change. Appreciate that they might be open to change but they actually need to come up with a vision and plan for change, it won't just fall out of thin air. A real lack of leadership there. I'd love to see the IRFU take the London Irish franchise and create an Exiles club in the URC but I think that would need RFU approval.

More generally in English rugby, they could copy our model of course and that would make a lot of sense but it took us 10 years to implement that and for it to bed in. I know poor leadership and no small measure of arrogance caused this but you've got to feel for the players, coaches and fans.

I know you have an affiliation to London Irish and it is a drum you have been banging for a long time but seriously why would the IRFU take over an non entity of a organisation with no real link back to any of the myriad of clubs it emerged from who have no home ground and are £30 million in debt?

That's a lot of rugby balls for kids back home.

There's no way the IRFU would take on that debt for sure but the club is on the verge of bankruptcy. Either build a new Exiles franchise (ideally on the amateur club) or buy the insolvent professional club at virtually nothing and Strip the assets - there's no ground but their training facilities are exceptionally good (hench the productivity of the academy) you could also drive the link back to the amateur club and the Irish community. The advantages from an IRFU perspective are:

1. Recruit diaspora/Irish qualified players (there is already an Exiles organisation)
2. The expansion to a MUCH bigger market in London that the entirity of Ireland - run it like Exeter and turn a profit
3. Development opportunity for blocked players in the Irish system or players who need game time development or access to specific coaching/development
4. Development opportunity for academy players
5. Career option for players who want to play abroad but know they will lose Ireland options if they go - players who've gone to Irish or other English or French clubs are not always has beens or never weres...
6. Irish players get to play in a league with a different style and culture form which we benefit and learn
7. Development opportunity for Irish coaches

Irish have had 300 internationals on their books over the years, their Academy is incredibly productive and there's a long club history in a big rugby market. Now I would be very doubtful, this has been mooted for years, Keith Wood was a big advocate and nothing ever happened and I'm not sure the RFU would sanction but I'm also not sure it's worthy of being deemed an opportunity without benefits.

1. We already do that through the exile programme (as you've stated) and the best IQ players abroad are already snapped up by the provinces.
2. That market doesn't look all that big looking at LI's attendances. I can't think of any club running at a profit whereby they don't need a sugar daddy and/or union help. Are Exeter as well run as we think? Looking at their outgoing players for next season, it looks like they are making some of the biggest cutbacks in the prem.
3. Again who are these blocked players? The other three provinces are crying out for quality IQ players, hence why our players are linked with moves to them every year. Our players want to stay and fight for their place.
4. More centers of excellence around the country would be far more beneficial imo. I don't like the idea of pouring money into an academy where a lot of the players could also go on to play for England and others.
5. Taking away depth from the four provinces, for little to no gain.
6. Is that really that important in this day and age?
7. Yeah, fair.

[naraic]

Before thinking anything about London Irish we have to realise that the RFU would torpedo a lot straight away. The RFU blocked London Scottish joining the Super eights.

If we were talking about a championship level London Irish I'd be more interested in some form of partnership than the premiership London Irish.

The club could push itself as Irish attract a small crowd. The IRFU could sponsor a a few academy spots for players that miss the academies and provinces could send a couple of players each on a recallable loan with some sort of dual player registration to get players gametime above AIL level.

The SRU had a partnership like this with London Scottish for a number of years but they got rid of it as the super 6 became more semi pro.

[Dave Cahill]

To my mind there'd be more benefit and a better return if the Union were to cut the mens sevens programme, reduce the womens sevens programme and invest in a Super League club

[Flash Gordon]

I know you have an affiliation to London Irish and it is a drum you have been banging for a long time but seriously why would the IRFU take over an non entity of a organisation with no real link back to any of the myriad of clubs it emerged from who have no home ground and are £30 million in debt?

That's a lot of rugby balls for kids back home.

There's no way the IRFU would take on that debt for sure but the club is on the verge of bankruptcy. Either build a new Exiles franchise (ideally on the amateur club) or buy the insolvent professional club at virtually nothing and Strip the assets - there's no ground but their training facilities are exceptionally good (hench the productivity of the academy) you could also drive the link back to the amateur club and the Irish community. The advantages from an IRFU perspective are:

1. Recruit diaspora/Irish qualified players (there is already an Exiles organisation)
2. The expansion to a MUCH bigger market in London that the entirity of Ireland - run it like Exeter and turn a profit
3. Development opportunity for blocked players in the Irish system or players who need game time development or access to specific coaching/development
4. Development opportunity for academy players
5. Career option for players who want to play abroad but know they will lose Ireland options if they go - players who've gone to Irish or other English or French clubs are not always has beens or never weres...
6. Irish players get to play in a league with a different style and culture form which we benefit and learn
7. Development opportunity for Irish coaches

Irish have had 300 internationals on their books over the years, their Academy is incredibly productive and there's a long club history in a big rugby market. Now I would be very doubtful, this has been mooted for years, Keith Wood was a big advocate and nothing ever happened and I'm not sure the RFU would sanction but I'm also not sure it's worthy of being deemed an opportunity without benefits.

1. We already do that through the exile programme (as you've stated) and the best IQ players abroad are already snapped up by the provinces.
2. That market doesn't look all that big looking at LI's attendances. I can't think of any club running at a profit whereby they don't need a sugar daddy and/or union help. Are Exeter as well run as we think? Looking at their outgoing players for next season, it looks like they are making some of the biggest cutbacks in the prem.
3. Again who are these blocked players? The other three provinces are crying out for quality IQ players, hence why our players are linked with moves to them every year. Our players want to stay and fight for their place.
4. More centers of excellence around the country would be far more beneficial imo. I don't like the idea of pouring money into an academy where a lot of the players could also go on to play for England and others.
5. Taking away depth from the four provinces, for little to no gain.
6. Is that really that important in this day and age?
7. Yeah, fair.

Agree 100% on the investment points you make - more centres of excellence makes sense as does investing coaching talent into the academies in the provinces, particularly those not producing as much as us.

I do think there are pros to this possibility beyond the black and white merchants shouting on twitter (not you I hasten to add!).

To be clear I'm not suggesting subsidizing the club or spending millions rather that it would be a going concern, there should be no subsidy for the Academy but the idea of players coming through and having access to one of the best academies in England could be part of the overall concept. Crowds are a minority income owner for many professional sports which is why soccer saw very little income drop. For many premier league clubs it's 5-10% of turnover only. Sponsorship opportunities for the clubs with reach in England is step change stuff and the marketability of a European/South African League is significant. A URC franchise in London has considerably more economic possibility than most URC teams in the league and way more than some of the expansion opportunities they are looking at in the USA.

On players, there is still a diaspora out there in the UK and it's been the thing that's kept our soccer team going for the last 3 decades - by the way, not relevant, but found out last weekend that Gregory Aldritt was Irish qualified! The Exiles have produced stacks of Irish internationals and in recent times Dan Tuohy, Declan Fitzpatrick and Mike McCarthy became full internationals more recently still Keiron Marmion, Rhys Ruddock, Kieran Treadwell and Sammy Arnold. At the moment it's a tiny organisation compared to any of our professional outlets. We're only scratching the tip of the ice berg on that possibility.

On the depth point, from an IRFU perspective Sean O'Brien, Paddy Jackson (!!), Ian Madigan, Ultan Dillane, Sean O'Brien (the back), Rory O'Loughlin, James Cronin, Jack Dunne, John Ryan, Marty Moore, Ian Whitten, Quinn Roux just off the top of my head have gone to play abroad. These guys aren't duds. Coaching wise, Declan Kidney, Les Kiss, Jerry Flannery, Geordan Murphy, Mark McCall, Gareth Steenson (the last 3 after playing there) all went over. Similarly we all know the Leinster players who've gone to other provinces because they were blocked at Leinster. Now those players have stayed in the Irish system which is good of course. However, one of the reasons they have is because other provinces haven't run successful academies which needs to be fixed and hopefully that will. Frankly, if the IRFU are investing in international output, Connacht are a poor investment (don't take this as "get rid of Connacht", it absolutely isn't!).

Ultimately, there was an historical and highly productive relationship between the Exiles and the IRFU. I suspect the Exiles might be the biggest single source of players from club rugby in Ireland's history but the IRFU jettisoned them.

Again, I don't think it's going to happen, the RFU have the final say in their own country as they run rugby and I think they would block it and the reason they'd block it is because they'd probably take it as a fairly serious threat, which probably tells us something.

[offshorerules]

Despite my current disdain for the Premiership I really hope London Irish don't go the way of Wasps. Too much history would be lost.

[IanD]

BBC News - London Irish: Owner Mick Crossan pays overdue wages after deadline set
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65483856

[paddyor]

Just FYI, the tax debt here is in many cases deferred tax which is an accounting adjustment. It's never likely to be realised and isn't due until the associated asset(s) is disposed of so it can probably be dedudcted from the debt. Many of the clubs availed of Covid deferrals for NIC and income tax as well. The total debt figure includes things like deferred income which probably includes stuff like the CVC money(that will be earned over a number of years though it gets paid upfront) or even season ticket income which is absorbed over the calendar year. So they're all not in terrible shape evern if their total libailites look sketchy AF.

[tigerburnie]

Those figures are out of date.

[tigerburnie]

For a club to be financed by another union, the home union has to agree. Scotland looked at funding London Scottish a while back and were re-buffed.

[blockhead]

Brian Moore in the Tgraph

If you reintroduce the madcap spectre of seasonal promotion and relegation, all you will do is destabilise the situation further.

I thought they loved the oul relegation thingy. Wasn't it the lack of that which made our league a joke?

[Flash Gordon]

For a club to be financed by another union, the home union has to agree. Scotland looked at funding London Scottish a while back and were re-buffed.

Yeah, i think there might have been something with London Welsh too. Unlikely that the RFU would facilitate another union to compete in their backyard. Unless of course we ended up with English clubs competing with URC clubs in the same competition, which may well be the future.

[Schumi]

For a club to be financed by another union, the home union has to agree. Scotland looked at funding London Scottish a while back and were re-buffed.

Yeah, i think there might have been something with London Welsh too. Unlikely that the RFU would facilitate another union to compete in their backyard. Unless of course we ended up with English clubs competing with URC clubs in the same competition, which may well be the future.

Can't see it happening even then. Would the IRFU let Scotland organise a URC team in Dublin to recruit the next Ben Healys?