Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

[MylesNaGapoleen]

sounds crazy, but, joining the URC might be a way forward for english clubs. premiership management has been a shambles (prior to covid) and they appear incapable of salvaging the situation other than letting clubs go to the wall.

The URC could have two leagues, with promotion & relegation, that would generate huge TV revenues with the english in the mix, more than the premiership could dream of.

That's spreading problems rather than solving them.

The English ownership model will clash with ours and it will end badly.

You're right, of course...the english clubs mucked up a perfectly good heineken cup format because we Irish were doing too well.

There's not a lot of forward-moving options for english teams now...other than crash & burn before rebuilding. slowly.

[ronk]

They did similar multiple times. They squeezed a big cheque out of the RFU, they ate the Heineken Cup, they ate the Championship (both in reduced funding and relegation), they burned Sky Sports, they spent their owners money.

All those things bought them the breathing room that they used to dig deeper.

London Irish signed a broken Sean O'Brien on a 3 year contract for €420k/season. 14 starts over 3 years wasn't a good return, but it could have been worse.

They spent money like that with limited attendance. They ran out of money. It's pretty simple.

[ronk]

You're right, of course...the english clubs mucked up a perfectly good heineken cup format because we Irish were doing too well.

There's not a lot of forward-moving options for english teams now...other than crash & burn before rebuilding. slowly.

That and they needed the money. They took a larger slice of a temporarily bigger pie. But they killed the goose that laid the Golden Egg (Sky Sports).

Outside of Saracens they pulled back from Heineken Cup in terms of interest level.

Most of the other English clubs have 1 of lower expenses, better support or more generous owners. Several are also better run. There's a limit to how far the damage will probably go, but we might not be there yet.

[Flash Gordon]

sounds crazy, but, joining the URC might be a way forward for english clubs. premiership management has been a shambles (prior to covid) and they appear incapable of salvaging the situation other than letting clubs go to the wall.

The URC could have two leagues, with promotion & relegation, that would generate huge TV revenues with the english in the mix, more than the premiership could dream of.

That's spreading problems rather than solving them.

The English ownership model will clash with ours and it will end badly.

You're right, of course...the english clubs mucked up a perfectly good heineken cup format because we Irish were doing too well.

There's not a lot of forward-moving options for english teams now...other than crash & burn before rebuilding. slowly.

Yep, they made 2 big mistakes:

1. Assumed rugby had the same kind of earning potential that premier league soccer had.
2. Assumed that the reason they were insolvent was because Europe wasn't generating enough to plug the hole in their business model.

You'd like to say the fans don't deserve this and it's all the owners' faults but I've heard a bit too much from fans about how unfair the Irish system is and how that needs to be fixed. Either way, it needs reinventing and URC including England might offer a deal that benefits everyone. Wouldn't want to see some of the people who tried to break the European cup anywhere near that though to be honest.

[Oldschool]

All this chat (tbf) about England joining the URC reminds of the punchline to a joke.
Yesterday we were hiring, today you're just staff.
The PRL clubs would be really positive talking about what they'd bring to the table and then once they had their feet under the table they'd start throwing their weight around.
Before you'd know where you were, the fans would need serious cleaning.
They have previous for this sort of behaviour and leopards don't change their spots.

[IanD]

BBC News - London Irish: RFU to decide on Wednesday whether to grant club extra week to complete takeover
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65751962

From the above article posted 2 hours ago.

"The RFU agreed in principle to an extension on Tuesday, with one condition that the current ownership paid salaries due on Wednesday.

But the situation was complicated on Tuesday evening at a hastily arranged players' meeting.

There it emerged current owner Mick Crossan was offering to pay 50% of the salaries, rather than the full amount, with the rest due on completion of the takeover."

[MylesNaGapoleen]

So, if London Irish get kicked out of the premiership, which is looking likely now...can the new consortium of USA backers + IRFU bring them into the URC?

If they can sort out the debt, joining the URC looks far more attractive than doing a salarycens in the championship.

[ronk]

So, if London Irish get kicked out of the premiership, which is looking likely now...can the new consortium of USA backers + IRFU bring them into the URC?

If they can sort out the debt, joining the URC looks far more attractive than doing a salarycens in the championship.

Short answer: no

Longer answer: definitely not.

[riocard911]

It's gonna happen. They're gonna come begging to the URC for a merger. When it happens, the IRFU should make their concession to such a new league conditional on the RFU taking 100% ownership of the clubs. That has to be the bottom line, otherwise the provinces will find themselves being mucked about by self-important shysters.

[ronk]

It's gonna happen. They're gonna come begging to the URC for a merger. When it happens, the IRFU should make their concession to such a new league conditional on the RFU taking 100% ownership of the clubs. That has to be the bottom line, otherwise the provinces will find themselves being mucked about by self-important shysters.

I don't think it will, not publicly anyway.

I just don't think they think that way. English fans have been conditioned for years to see URC as an inferior product that even the members clubs don't want, but need anyway.

Welsh clubs have their own crisis. It's lots of expensive travel to play games they don't care about. It'd be a hard sell for owners and fans.

[IanD]

So, if London Irish get kicked out of the premiership, which is looking likely now...can the new consortium of USA backers + IRFU bring them into the URC?

If they can sort out the debt, joining the URC looks far more attractive than doing a salarycens in the championship.

From the BBC story I linked above

"While sources close to the takeover insist a deal is close, there remains concern about proof of funds and the exact identity of the prospective new owners."

So you want the IRFU to get into bed with a Consortium that we don't know who it belongs to and have yet to provide any proof of being able to finance a season in the Premiership.

Forgive me but that is plane daft.

If they have no cash for the season are you happy for the IRFU to fund London Irish to the detriment of the 4 pro clubs and all amateur clubs right down to the minis on a Saturday morning?

And that is before you sort out the debt of over £30 million. And - as posted above - the RFU won't allow English Clubs to be owned by other Unions. And - as posted above - rumours abound that the Consortium only want the assets of LI which amounts to their training ground as a base for NFL in Britain.

Besides all that it is a wonderful idea.

[tigerburnie]

Not going to happen, London Irish would have to play in the URC in Ireland, the RFU would not have a rival league on their patch, you wouldn't want Wasps rocking up in Athlone or Galway and playing in the English Premiership.

[ronk]

Not going to happen, London Irish would have to play in the URC in Ireland, the RFU would not have a rival league on their patch, you wouldn't want Wasps rocking up in Athlone or Galway and playing in the English Premiership.

I agree. There are unsolvable problems, but even if they were trivial neither the IRFU nor the RFU would be trying to figure out how to make it happen.

[The Doc]

The talk of the "RFU taking ownership of the clubs" seems odd. They are independently established legal entities. The only way the RFU could "take ownership" would be to make offers to buy out each of the owners which would then include taking on the debt (unless it was restructured).

It would be more sense logical to suggest letting them go to the wall and just set up new clubs and a new league - or make the Championship the recognised lead competition and withdraw the recognition of the Premiership - which would also be a complete mess

[MylesNaGapoleen]

So, if London Irish get kicked out of the premiership, which is looking likely now...can the new consortium of USA backers + IRFU bring them into the URC?

If they can sort out the debt, joining the URC looks far more attractive than doing a salarycens in the championship.

From the BBC story I linked above

"While sources close to the takeover insist a deal is close, there remains concern about proof of funds and the exact identity of the prospective new owners."

So you want the IRFU to get into bed with a Consortium that we don't know who it belongs to and have yet to provide any proof of being able to finance a season in the Premiership.

Forgive me but that is plane daft.

If they have no cash for the season are you happy for the IRFU to fund London Irish to the detriment of the 4 pro clubs and all amateur clubs right down to the minis on a Saturday morning?

And that is before you sort out the debt of over £30 million. And - as posted above - the RFU won't allow English Clubs to be owned by other Unions. And - as posted above - rumours abound that the Consortium only want the assets of LI which amounts to their training ground as a base for NFL in Britain.

Besides all that it is a wonderful idea.

many kyboshed the idea of struggling SA teams joining the URC Ian.

quick SWOT:

strengths
1. london irish already has a solid brand & fanbase that will attend games.
2. London Irish is already screwed - nothing to lose.
opps
3. american backers are interested in the rugby brand long term and have cash
4. IRFU can provide players
5. TV money from URC is higher than championship.
6. joining URC will invigorate fans and increase fanbase.
weaknesses
7. it requires major financial gymnastics to offload/write off the debt
threats.
8. None. London irish is already finished if they do nothing and dive down into the championship. IRFU can ringfence themselves from any serious impact in the event of a catastrophe.

[tigerburnie]

Without some clear signs of how they intend to be run and financed and by whom, London Irish are unlikely to be in the Championship. Likely a year or two at the bottom and when the "franchises" for Premier league 2 are up for sale then they could join Wasps and Worcester in a bidding war.

[IanD]

So, if London Irish get kicked out of the premiership, which is looking likely now...can the new consortium of USA backers + IRFU bring them into the URC?

If they can sort out the debt, joining the URC looks far more attractive than doing a salarycens in the championship.

From the BBC story I linked above

"While sources close to the takeover insist a deal is close, there remains concern about proof of funds and the exact identity of the prospective new owners."

So you want the IRFU to get into bed with a Consortium that we don't know who it belongs to and have yet to provide any proof of being able to finance a season in the Premiership.

Forgive me but that is plane daft.

If they have no cash for the season are you happy for the IRFU to fund London Irish to the detriment of the 4 pro clubs and all amateur clubs right down to the minis on a Saturday morning?

And that is before you sort out the debt of over £30 million. And - as posted above - the RFU won't allow English Clubs to be owned by other Unions. And - as posted above - rumours abound that the Consortium only want the assets of LI which amounts to their training ground as a base for NFL in Britain.

Besides all that it is a wonderful idea.

many kyboshed the idea of struggling SA teams joining the URC Ian.

quick SWOT:

strengths
1. london irish already has a solid brand & fanbase that will attend games.
2. London Irish is already screwed - nothing to lose.
opps
3. american backers are interested in the rugby brand long term and have cash
4. IRFU can provide players
5. TV money from URC is higher than championship.
6. joining URC will invigorate fans and increase fanbase.
weaknesses
7. it requires major financial gymnastics to offload/write off the debt
threats.
8. None. London irish is already finished if they do nothing and dive down into the championship. IRFU can ringfence themselves from any serious impact in the event of a catastrophe.

1 - not enough to stop them racking up debts of over £30 million
2 - I agree but I simply don't care about LI.
3 - absolute tosh. You can't prove that. Noone knows who is in the Consortium so how do you know their plans. They have repeatedly failed to provide proof of funds to the RFU.
4 - who pays these players? LI or IRFU? LI get money from the RFU for training English players. If the IRFU supply Irish players who makes up the shortfall in income?
5 - enough to clear £30 million of debt?
6 - how? No English Rugby publications praise the URC and as a threat to English Rugby the English press will hammer the club.

7 - between £30 & 35 million pounds of debt is a massive amount to wriggle out from.

8 - who says they will end up in the Championship? They could do a Wasps.

But you failed to address the most salient point. The RFU did not allow the Scottish Rugby Union do a tie up with London Scottish. They would have to sign off on any deal with the IRFU and LI. And simply put why would they?

[ronk]

At least when LI collapse we won't have to deal with the same question being asked anew every few months. We might as well be discussing whether they're going to become a basketball team. Otherwise it's a real shame.

[heno]

I haven't seen it mentioned, but I think there was a opinion/belief abound in premiership circles that rwc2015 was going to be rugby coming home, England were more than likely going to win it, the popularity boost would be immense, rugby would be on a new turbo charged trajectory and the dividend to premiership clubs would justify all the decisions that went before. And we all know what happened there...

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[MylesNaGapoleen]

I haven't seen it mentioned, but I think there was a opinion/belief abound in premiership circles that rwc2015 was going to be rugby coming home, England were more than likely going to win it, the popularity boost would be immense, rugby would be on a new turbo charged trajectory and the dividend to premiership clubs would justify all the decisions that went before. And we all know what happened there...

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I happened to be in england during the week of their last pool games...against Wales & Australia. The expectation was enormous. everywhere pubs had invested in huge outdoor screens and beer gardens, even selling tickets to watch the finals in the same beer garden! expectation was off the scale. they had already won it.

I was with some welsh buddies in a pub when wales pinched it at the death with a superb try and then robshaw famously called to go to touch, instead of take the three and draw. they then threw to the front from the lineout and the welsh pushed them into touch.

As an aside...that sacked coaching team of Lancaster (Leinster, now Racing Metro), Farrell (Ireland), Catt (Ireland), Rowntree (Munster) from 2015 are doing pretty well for themselves now and I reckon they have a point to prove at the next world cup.