Sabre-rattling from Premiership Rugby again ...

[Dave Cahill]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

[TerenureJim]

It takes two to have a conversation and the ERC were not willing to talk for over a year

Again you do know as has been pointed out many times that Peter Wheeler is a director of the ERC and that the PRL are and remain actively part of it, obtrusive though they may be, there has never been an ERC Vs PRL outlook it's only since certain club owners and McCafferty have called for it as a Company to be wound up (bearing in mind PRL are not shareholders so it's like me asking Disneyland Ltd. to wind up) that the ERC made public responses regarding getting people back to the discussion tables.

You seem very keen to remain ignorant that the ERC as a Company has a very simple object which is to act as an executive body to organise a pan European club/provincial ruby competition. The board of directors, seperate to the executives who operate the company on a daily basis, are made up by the six unions, PRL, LNR and WRU. So are you telling me that Peter Wheeler as a director of ERC and a prominent member of PRL is suffering from a multiple personality disorder and that his Dr. Jeckel / Mr. Hyde don't talk to each other?

Do you actually know what has happended at ERC bord meetings involving Mr. Wheeler? If so how because outside of the directors and the auditors of an Irish registered company there are very few people who should know the contents of the minutes. You sir presume to have some insight that we are all lacking into what went on between the PRL and ERC but in reality you don't and are making yourself look more and more foolish. I trust you will enjoy whatever the PRL let rugby become we'll all be more than happy to go back to supporting our local clubs playing in the various levels of the AIL which have continued to operate and provide some great rubgy and you probably know nothing about.

[Jackie Brown]

Next week we kick off what looks like the last Heineken in it's current format and still the round in circles talk about the past, no talk of the up coming games, which is sad on both counts.
The Franglais have said categorically that they will not be coming to Dublin for this months scheduled talks of the ERC, they are looking at starting a new competition, if it ever gets off the ground.
But as far as they are concerned the notice expires at the end of this season and sadly so does their involvement in the ERC, that's it, it's over, there is no re-jigging. The FRanglais said they got fed up of no-one talking so they are now finished, there is no more talking about the ERC as far as they are concerned.

Alright so, cheerio. The French will be there as they do what their Union tells them.

Have a nice year or 2 in European oblivion.

[TerenureJim]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

+1,000,000 if this plays out in the format that PRL wish we might see the provinces change their structures and revert back to interpros and tour matches but we have a pretty decent club game that many will revert back to. Granted the profile that rugby has had will diminish, we'll loose players to France (they won't bother with England Tiger you won't have enough money and your club fanbases are too small/low profile), people won't follow foreign rugby teams in the manner of Premiership football clubs, but there can and will be a fantastic upside in terms of a return to local clubs that were and reamin the bedrock of Irish rugby.

Donny/Dave I'd happily buy any of you a beer down in Lakelands if it comes to it.

[Donny B.]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

Sure, Irish rugby will still be around. Professional provinces though would be genuinely under threat and the knock on effect for the national team would be dire.

[TheBear]

How many of the posters on here spell 'lose' (as in being defeated) as 'loose' (as in baggy when referring to clothes)? I suspect more spell it the latter way than the former.

Sorry - off topic I know.

At the risk of dragging this further off topic, my pet hates are 'definate' and 'independant'. Oh, and apostrophe's used for plural's.

Grrrrr... "have" vs "of". "I should of done...".

Hanging offence...

I remembered that one after I posted, but was too blinded by pedantic rage to edit my post. Saying 'I should of' displays a fundamental lack of understanding of a) contractions and b) what the words actually mean.

Next week we kick off what looks like the last Heineken in it's current format and still the round in circles talk about the past, no talk of the up coming games, which is sad on both counts.
The Franglais have said categorically that they will not be coming to Dublin for this months scheduled talks of the ERC, they are looking at starting a new competition, if it ever gets off the ground.
But as far as they are concerned the notice expires at the end of this season and sadly so does their involvement in the ERC, that's it, it's over, there is no re-jigging. The FRanglais said they got fed up of no-one talking so they are now finished, there is no more talking about the ERC as far as they are concerned.

Back on topic:

Have the Franglais said that they wouldn't come to Dublin, or have the PRL said it on behalf of themselves and the LNR? I haven't heard anything from the LNR is quite a while, not since the FFR told them to go to Dublin.

[Flash Gordon]

I don't think anybody is happy about where we've got to, the players or the fans. I'm sure if you ask Tigers players which they rather play in the Heineken Cup or the Anglo-French competition they'd clearly vote Europe - as would the fans. The failure is down to the administrators of the game - including the IRFU. The lack of foresight, proactivity, urgency and leadership has been nothing short of disgraceful and those concerned really should be considering their positions in my opinion.

Ah come on Flash wake up and smell the coffee. This was always a power-play from the clubs to take over control of the professional game. Nothing the ERC, IRFU or any union could offer short of self-immolation would placate these people.

2-3 years ago I said this was going to happen and most people here thought it was hilarious. In the meantime the debate here has mostly focused on “tell them to fock off” with no small amount of ranting about the evils of English rugby ( a very unbalanced discussion because I think part of the English argument had merit). Great, everyone has the moral high ground and the future of rugby in Ireland is looking very very bleak. And by the way, I’m not sure how the moral highground fits with the fact that clubs with 100 yearsof tradition and history were abandoned to create the provincial system (in all celtic countries) and how we created playing and financial structures that had an inherent fiscal and resource advantage over the likes of Edinburgh, Treviso, Aironi, Newport, Connacht etc. Irish team cantered to titles and playoffs playing kids and hardly breaking sweat.

Yes, this is an attempt by the clubs to wrestle power, you’re absolutely right, but it was entirely predictable. Am I happy about that? No. But that’s the reality professional sport. You get Corinthian spirit at Old Wesley vs Wanderers. You don’t at top level professional sport.

I saw this coming years ago because its happened in soccer, in cricket and many American sports – it was entirely obvious and in any business, the only certainty is that things never stay the same and we assumed they would. The answer to that threat is absolutely not to stick your head in the sand, rant about morality or “take a stand” that results in the end of top notch professional rugby in Ireland (and the associated player drain). 2-3 years ago Irish clubs were dominating Europe, bringing in huge crowds and in a very strong position to lead the conversation, we refused to talk or present a vision beyond actually expanding the competition.

Maybe we would have ended up in the same place but if you don’t talk this place is guaranteed. As Wayne Gretzky said “I miss 100% of the shots I never take”. Great leaders make change an opportunity, they don’t sit back and say “sure what could we do?”

Now that this has all gone where is the IRFU vision for an alternate future? Errrrrr……..guess what, there isn’t one.

I think now is the time to focus on what we can control. So the choices are
1. Play the Pro-12 – outcome, player drain, declining revenues.
2. Take one of the 6 places offered – Mick Dawson thinks that’s worth talking about
3. Create Celtic league franchises in England, France, Rome…….and what about South Africa? Create a rival world class competition that makes the Anglo French cup look like the Johnstone’s Paint.

[Flash Gordon]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

Sure, Irish rugby will still be around. Professional provinces though would be genuinely under threat and the knock on effect for the national team would be dire.

The provinces will play second grade rugby and I'm not sure how the IRFU will pay the bills. The national team might be ok though - Ireland could effectively become an Ajax type outfit that feeds the English and French leagues. So you look at Holland, they have an outstanding national team and a crappy domestic league. I suppose the IRFU could encourage players to play for certain clubs (London Irish for example).

The other alternative is form an alternate vision to compete with the Anglo-French competition - or play in it.

[IanD]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

But who will we play?

Scotland have confirmed they would be in massive trouble without Heineken Cup. Wales are in debt and have reduced profits this year - would definitely suffer with no European Cup. Italy I am not sure of their finances but would guess they need European Cup too. RFU will lose money each year so puts current and future England Team under pressure.

I am not even going to get into what would happen when all PRO12 nations players are in France and England. How long till 2 deals are on the table - retire from international rugby for more money?

This is why I was delighted to see the PRO 12 nations come out with near identical messages of support for the ERC. In my opinion it is united we stand - divided we fall.

[IanD]

The provinces will play second grade rugby and I'm not sure how the IRFU will pay the bills. The national team might be ok though - Ireland could effectively become an Ajax type outfit that feeds the English and French leagues. So you look at Holland, they have an outstanding national team and a crappy domestic league. I suppose the IRFU could encourage players to play for certain clubs (London Irish for example).

The other alternative is form an alternate vision to compete with the Anglo-French competition - or play in it.

Flash you love for London Irish is wearing thin now. Can I confirm you want Leinster to become a feeder club for London Irish? What a joke.

And your idea of playing in the Anglo-French competition are you WUMing now or are you for real? I would seriously question you business acumen if think that is a good idea. As a club we would get less money play less games both of which would out Leinster under more financial strain than now. We cant compete with French teams and their Sugar Daddies now; what would happen when we have less income and the French and English Clubs more?

Oh yeah we become a feeder club to London Irish. How many season tickets would Leinster sell when half our team is playing in England or France and as soon as we develop a talent we move him on? This would mean even less income.

I am sorry Flash but down you route lies oblivion both for clubs and internationally.

[Dave Cahill]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

But who will we play?

Scotland have confirmed they would be in massive trouble without Heineken Cup. Wales are in debt and have reduced profits this year - would definitely suffer with no European Cup. Italy I am not sure of their finances but would guess they need European Cup too. RFU will lose money each year so puts current and future England Team under pressure.

I am not even going to get into what would happen when all PRO12 nations players are in France and England. How long till 2 deals are on the table - retire from international rugby for more money?

This is why I was delighted to see the PRO 12 nations come out with near identical messages of support for the ERC. In my opinion it is united we stand - divided we fall.

We'll play the Scots, Welsh, Italians, French and English.

[Flash Gordon]

The provinces will play second grade rugby and I'm not sure how the IRFU will pay the bills. The national team might be ok though - Ireland could effectively become an Ajax type outfit that feeds the English and French leagues. So you look at Holland, they have an outstanding national team and a crappy domestic league. I suppose the IRFU could encourage players to play for certain clubs (London Irish for example).

The other alternative is form an alternate vision to compete with the Anglo-French competition - or play in it.

Flash you love for London Irish is wearing thin now. Can I confirm you want Leinster to become a feeder club for London Irish? What a joke.

And your idea of playing in the Anglo-French competition are you WUMing now or are you for real? I would seriously question you business acumen if think that is a good idea. As a club we would get less money play less games both of which would out Leinster under more financial strain than now. We cant compete with French teams and their Sugar Daddies now; what would happen when we have less income and the French and English Clubs more?

Oh yeah we become a feeder club to London Irish. How many season tickets would Leinster sell when half our team is playing in England or France and as soon as we develop a talent we move him on? This would mean even less income.

I am sorry Flash but down you route lies oblivion both for clubs and internationally.

Very happy to have a discussion about my record on business growth off line.

Its difficult to respond to your post because I don't get your logic and its pretty disjointed. How exactly would you get less money by playing in a tournament than not playing in?

My idea is an expansion of the celtic league in hits current format - I said England, I said France, I said RSA as options.

I'm trying to think of possibilities. Now what is your proposed future for Irish rugby beyond saying its all sh!t and nothing will work?

[Donny B.]

I think now is the time to focus on what we can control. So the choices are
1. Play the Pro-12 – outcome, player drain, declining revenues.
2. Take one of the 6 places offered – Mick Dawson thinks that’s worth talking about
3. Create Celtic league franchises in England, France, Rome…….and what about South Africa? Create a rival world class competition that makes the Anglo French cup look like the Johnstone’s Paint.

1. Starve ourselves slowly to death...
2. Sign our own death warrant, taking the crumbs from the master's table, let them take our best players with their bigger share of the pie while lose competitiveness and any control of our future. Shure, we Paddys know our place now!
3. Go into the realms of fantasy, you forgot the NFL clubs as well...

[Donny B.]

You get Corinthian spirit at Old Wesley vs Wanderers.

Are you kidding? If the fat cat blazers down at that mob found anyone showing "Corinthian spirit" they'd have them executed for being commies!

[Flash Gordon]

I think now is the time to focus on what we can control. So the choices are
1. Play the Pro-12 – outcome, player drain, declining revenues.
2. Take one of the 6 places offered – Mick Dawson thinks that’s worth talking about
3. Create Celtic league franchises in England, France, Rome…….and what about South Africa? Create a rival world class competition that makes the Anglo French cup look like the Johnstone’s Paint.

1. Starve ourselves slowly to death...
2. Sign our own death warrant, taking the crumbs from the master's table, let them take our best players with their bigger share of the pie while lose competitiveness and any control of our future. Shure, we Paddys know our place now!
3. Go into the realms of fantasy, you forgot the NFL clubs as well...

on 2 you buy time and actually work to shape the future.
3. Can I just remind you that every club in the Pro-12 is a franchise. And if you'd have said in 1990 that Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy would be playing in a unified league I bet you'd have responded with the same comment (as many would). The Celtic League and the provincial system was a visionary move that flipped convention on its head and created something new and step change. That kind of thinking is what we need now.

We really do only have 3 choices that I'm aware of - 1. Accept demise 2. Be part of the Anglo-French split 3. Create something new. I can't honestly see any options beyond that.

So what's your solution?

[Flash Gordon]

You get Corinthian spirit at Old Wesley vs Wanderers.

Are you kidding? If the fat cat blazers down at that mob found anyone showing "Corinthian spirit" they'd have them executed for being commies!

Fair call.

[tigerburnie]

I do not think for a minute that any nation currently in the 6 nations will "go bust" over this sad affair, but lets play devils advocate here.
You say this will be the death of Celtic rugby, did your stakeholders not consider this when the Franglais put in their notice to leave?
Now I presume they looked at the finances, signed a deal with Sky and thought everything would be fine, so don't worry.
If the English leaving is going to bring about financial ruin, why was there not some urgent discusion over a year ago? BEFORE the deal with BT was signed/announced?
Clearly the ERC think they will be fine without the French and or English.

[Sea_point]

You'll destroy us

Rugby in Ireland has survived a war of independence, a civil war, two world wars, the emergency, the ban and the troubles all of which directly affected the game one way or another - this won't destroy us.

But who will we play?

Scotland have confirmed they would be in massive trouble without Heineken Cup. Wales are in debt and have reduced profits this year - would definitely suffer with no European Cup. Italy I am not sure of their finances but would guess they need European Cup too. RFU will lose money each year so puts current and future England Team under pressure.

I am not even going to get into what would happen when all PRO12 nations players are in France and England. How long till 2 deals are on the table - retire from international rugby for more money?

This is why I was delighted to see the PRO 12 nations come out with near identical messages of support for the ERC. In my opinion it is united we stand - divided we fall.

The Scots would be in only a fractionally worse position by having no HEC (and only if then if they could guarantee successful campaigns), the tournament is not a money spinner for them generally speaking, as bar one season they don't generate big crowds (outside of Edinburgh's semi-final season they haven't generated a crowd bigger than 7k, the average over all seasons would be less than 4K per game).

The AI's (to a lesser degree) and 6N (like Ireland and Wales) bankrolls the vast majority of SRU expenses from their regions...

[Lar]

If the ERC can't keep the Heineken going and supporting Italy and Scotland, then it kind of proves a point does it not.

It may do but it depends on what the point is.

If it is that the game in Scotland and Italy (one nation steeped in Rugby history and the other a country that has shown development on an impressive scale since it has been admitted to the 6 Nations 13/14 years ago) needs support to flourish and thrive until it can stand on its own two feet then I am with you.

If the point is that Italy and Scotland do not deserve to have extra protection in terms of their participation and revenue because the game is poor there and has limited revenue potential at present, then you'll forgive me if I take an opposite view.

The Franglais will welcome them into their new competition, might not be up and running by Christmas as I predicted, it looks as though there's a lot of court time to do first, but it will happen.

What will happen and why do you think so?

What assistance do you think the Courts will be?

I fully accept that the English and French Cubs can not be forced into participating in a Cup run by the ERC. But I fail to see how the corollary is that they can successfully demand to play in their own competition if the FFR and IRB do not approve it.

The default position is not that the RCC replaces the HEC. The default position is that no European competition at all takes place. Regardless of whether you are unhappy with the revenue share or the rules of participation or anything else in the present format; or who said what and when; for any self respecting person who claims to support rugby that is a bizarre position to take.

[JB1973]

I do not think for a minute that any nation currently in the 6 nations will "go bust" over this sad affair, but lets play devils advocate here.
You say this will be the death of Celtic rugby, did your stakeholders not consider this when the Franglais put in their notice to leave?
Now I presume they looked at the finances, signed a deal with Sky and thought everything would be fine, so don't worry.
If the English leaving is going to bring about financial ruin, why was there not some urgent discusion over a year ago? BEFORE the deal with BT was signed/announced?
Clearly the ERC think they will be fine without the French and or English.

I think the point people are trying to make is regardless of any discussion held the English/French clubs were going to go down this path.

There is nothing ERC could have said or done to stop this, they have agreed to the demands re qualification, they have agreed to the demands over % of funding, so what else could they do to placate the English/French? Named the trophy the Wheeler/Goze cup? reduced it to the top 8 English/French teams, plus the top two pro 12 teams and the winner of the amlin/Heineken cup?

Seriously what more do your teams want from the PRO 12 nations?

I'd rather merge with the Scarlets than see us cow tow to these bully boy tactics