Munster Thread 2012-2013

[Golf Man]

Is that really a solid foundation to build on? Maybe, it's hard to know. Leinster in 2009 didn't exactly look like potential champions until they suddenly found a different gear in the last few weeks of the season. That's the H-Cup for you, it's knockout rugby, the group stages are totally unbalanced, it's mad.

Thing is though we we're getting decent results in the league in 2008/2009 season and won the thing in 2007/2008 so it's a bit apples & oranges IMO. As I've posted elesewhere numerous times Muster need to get away from the media circus and hype that seems to generate around them. Might have been great in the "holy grail" years pre-2006 but its been doing them no favours since 2008.

Honest question - do you not think that Leinster have a very similar media hype - Leinstertainment and all that? I think we were late to implement change under McGahan and in general the style he wanted just wasn't going to work, but he reached two HC semis and a Q/F. What damage the hype does I'm not sure - it's either Sky doing their job or the marketing department doing theirs - F all to do with the rugby

[kendalgerty]

It's hard to know from the outside how much of a factor the hype is (does it affect the players in the week of the match?) but I've generally been of the opinion that it's not in Munster's best interests. There definitely is a different sort of treatment of Munster in the media and a willingness to attribute a sort of 'magic in the air' to their great performances. Leinster get credit where it's due, but nobody ever talks about an RDS x-factor or other sort of 'mystical' references to the team or support. Take Mattie Williams' piece today - those with short memories could be forgiven for thinking ROG had played like he did on saturday all season, but clearly that hasn't been the case.

[Apocrypha]

I believe there is a general perception - rightly or wrongly - amongst the Irish public who don't follow rugby with much more than a passing interest (i.e. circa 90%) that Munster are somehow representative of the plucky, salt-of-the-earth, Irish underdog, while Leinster represent South Dublin, pseudo-Ascendant, public school boys.

How much this affects the players and management of both teams, I have no idea. It does, however - along with the perceived bias - seem to have a significantly deleterious effect on the posters of this forum.

[Sauvignon Blank]

CA were very good for 25 odd mins, nothing special just very good. They then contrived to do a whole manner of silly things from then on in, missing passes,overlaps,kicks, unforced errors,wrong options etc. and got very complacent.

Munster were dazzled in the headlights and could do nothing but take what came their way. This game was so one sided (for a HC semi) in the 1st half it was embarrassing.

That munster were in with a shout near the end speaks volumes of CA and their lack of bottle IMHO and very little to do with munster being excellent, which BTW they most certainly were not. Munster offered no cutting edge, no decent backline plays, no continuity just a heap of turnovers and tackles.

ROG done very well by his own standards. He kicked the leather off the ball as per usual. As an attacking 10 he was distinctly average. The fella simply hasn't a clue how to get a backline going.

Munster done what any brawler on the ropes would do if he found himself still standing in the 12th after an onslaught. That is to say, get a second wind and throw the kitchen sink and hope for the best.

Had they snatched a try at the end it's fair to say CA would have been mugged/robbed, no question. The better team by a country mile won, should have won more handily but didn't. Munster were poor for a lot of the game and good for a short period, that is all.

Comparisons with Embra are valid IMO. All this talk of turning corners is nonsense. There are no corners on a roundabout. Sad but true. Pointless throwing crumbs of comfort out to the Brave n faithful because they have serious problems that need to be adressed. A gallant display should not mask this.

[rookie]

CA were very good for 25 odd mins, nothing special just very good. They then contrived to do a whole manner of silly things from then on in, missing passes,overlaps,kicks, unforced errors,wrong options etc. and got very complacent.

Munster were dazzled in the headlights and could do nothing but take what came their way. This game was so one sided (for a HC semi) in the 1st half it was embarrassing.

That munster were in with a shout near the end speaks volumes of CA and their lack of bottle IMHO and very little to do with munster being excellent, which BTW they most certainly were not. Munster offered no cutting edge, no decent backline plays, no continuity just a heap of turnovers and tackles.

ROG done very well by his own standards. He kicked the leather off the ball as per usual. As an attacking 10 he was distinctly average. The fella simply hasn't a clue how to get a backline going.

Munster done what any brawler on the ropes would do if he found himself still standing in the 12th after an onslaught. That is to say, get a second wind and throw the kitchen sink and hope for the best.

Had they snatched a try at the end it's fair to say CA would have been mugged/robbed, no question. The better team by a country mile won, should have won more handily but didn't.
Munster were poor for a lot of the game and good for a short period, that is all.


Comparisons with Embra are valid IMO. All this talk of turning corners is nonsense. There are no corners on a roundabout. Sad but true. Pointless throwing crumbs of comfort out to the Brave n faithful because they have serious problems that need to be adressed. A gallant display should not mask this.

What a post! Outstanding is the only word for this. What are you doing busking around sites like this? You should be making contributions to national sports columns. Get off your arse and get out there. It's about time someone told it how it is!

[Golf Man]

CA were very good for 25 odd mins, nothing special just very good. They then contrived to do a whole manner of silly things from then on in, missing passes,overlaps,kicks, unforced errors,wrong options etc. and got very complacent.

Munster were dazzled in the headlights and could do nothing but take what came their way. This game was so one sided (for a HC semi) in the 1st half it was embarrassing.

That munster were in with a shout near the end speaks volumes of CA and their lack of bottle IMHO and very little to do with munster being excellent, which BTW they most certainly were not. Munster offered no cutting edge, no decent backline plays, no continuity just a heap of turnovers and tackles.

ROG done very well by his own standards. He kicked the leather off the ball as per usual. As an attacking 10 he was distinctly average. The fella simply hasn't a clue how to get a backline going.

Munster done what any brawler on the ropes would do if he found himself still standing in the 12th after an onslaught. That is to say, get a second wind and throw the kitchen sink and hope for the best.

Had they snatched a try at the end it's fair to say CA would have been mugged/robbed, no question. The better team by a country mile won, should have won more handily but didn't.
Munster were poor for a lot of the game and good for a short period, that is all.


Comparisons with Embra are valid IMO. All this talk of turning corners is nonsense. There are no corners on a roundabout. Sad but true. Pointless throwing crumbs of comfort out to the Brave n faithful because they have serious problems that need to be adressed. A gallant display should not mask this.

What a post! Outstanding is the only word for this. What are you doing busking around sites like this? You should be making contributions to national sports columns. Get off your arse and get out there. It's about time someone told it how it is!

Its well written but its complete and utter drivel and factually incorrect.

Its all very easy to say that Clermont got complacent and started making errors - some evidence would be nice. And those errors are every bit as likely to be as a result of Munster pressure as much as Clermont mistakes

Your comments are completely subjective - Clermont were complacent, Munster were dazzled, Clermonts lack of bottle, Munsters lack of excellence - its well presented but there is no proof or evidence at all of any of this.

ROG done well by his own standards - presentation fell down a bit on that one. Whether you like it or not ROG played well by any standards against Clermont. If you had to pinpoint weaknesses in the Clermont team before the game what would they be - a possibly frail outhalf (although not having to kick helps him a lot), possibly some issues when it comes to big moments in big games, and wingers who can be dodgy when turned. Trying to run through or around Clermont simply wasn't going to work - Leinster have far more in their arsenal for that approach and they couldn't do it - Munster trying to take Clermont on in a game like that would have been a folly. Tactical attacking kicking was the right ploy for this Munster team on this particular day - it utilised their current strengths and also, luckily enough, targeted some of Clermonts possible weaknesses. What ROG did on Saturday, which he hasn't been doing with any regularity for the last two years was that he played flat, was well supported and kept Clermont guessing.

Rugby is not a game of same - there are different ways to approach a game. I hate watching rugby - yes they pick nice lines and have good off loads and lots of tries - but it still smacks of 26 robots taking turns smashing into each other. I love the fact that there are different ways of attacking and love the battle between different approaches - if you don't understand this, you don't understand rugby. Munster had a simple plan on Saturday - bring huge aggressiveness and abrasiveness from the start, don't let Clermont get too far ahead (because they were always going to come after us at the start) and play their way back into the game. What they did in the second half was exactly what Penney has been talking about all season (and what Schmidt talks about a lot) - they played what was in front of them. Sure Clermont got rattled, but that was as a direct result of the way that Munster played - pinning teams back is a complete valid attacking plan, because it often results in teams feeling the pressure - that pressure - all part of the game my friend

If Munster had won it it would not have been a mugging - it would have been a perfectly executed game plan - targeting the oppositions weaknesses using your strengths. At the moment we don't quite have enough ability to do it. We are not the all singing and all dancing Leinster team of the last couple of years - much as I enjoyed and admired them, quite frankly I don't want to be that team (although some of the success would be nice)

Comparisons with Edinburgh are complete nonsense - using the last five seasons (since we last won it) Edinburgh have come out of their pool once - they have 12 games out of 32. In that time frame Munster have reached three semi finals and one quarter final and have 26 of our 37 games. They lost all 6 games this year and had a points difference of -142 - do you really think thats going to happen to Munster next year

What you also fail to mention is the squad - we now have 8/9 guys under 25 who are first choice, and have generally two years of Heineken Cup rugby behind them, and not been found wanting - there are issues that need to be adressed absolutely - has a corner been turned - absolutely

[Royston Sole]

Well, fellow Blue Ladies, as his perception appears to matter greatly to him, I propose that we allow Golf Man to have the last word on this engaging sideshow.

Perhaps all those in favour might indicate their agreement to this proposal by refraining from replying. I thank you.

[Oldschool]

I believe there is a general perception - rightly or wrongly - amongst the Irish public who don't follow rugby with much more than a passing interest (i.e. circa 90%) that Munster are somehow representative of the plucky, salt-of-the-earth, Irish underdog, while Leinster represent South Dublin, pseudo-Ascendant, public school boys.

How much this affects the players and management of both teams, I have no idea. It does, however - along with the perceived bias - seem to have a significantly deleterious effect on the posters of this forum.

As I fall into neither of your (admittedly necessary type casts) perhaps I can give you my own take on things.
First up I think the perception is as you describe it.
However the media are the main culprits in creating this perception.

The real lie in the perception is that "plucky, salt-of-the-earth, Irish underdog" is good and "South Dublin, pseudo-Ascendant, public school boy" is evil.
Or more simply - Munster is Good and Leinster is Evil.

Prior to mass media TV the press pretty much controlled public opinion in terms of which player should be capped etc and so on.
At that time I took them at their word (silly me) and had no provincial bias one way or the other in terms of international selection.
Ned Van Esbeck was god and GT gained the reflected respect of writing for the same paper and thus the same trust.
It was a case of ignorance is bliss and what the eye doesn't see the heart won't grieve.
Roll it forward to the end of the Gatland era and then the Munster takeover of the national team ably abetted and promoted by the media.
However by now I could see the players in action myself (curtesy of SKY and Donnybrook and a deeper pocket) and make my own informed judgements.
The bias towards selection of Munster players was obvious and Joe public wasn't all that interested anyway.
Joe Public thinks ROG was a great player based almost entirely on his kicking ability and the media didn't enlighten them.
ROG was a great player (read that again) in his pomp because he could do a lot more than just kick penalties and kick to the corners or anywhere else for that matter. ROG had great passing technique and really the only big weakness was his tacking. He could get a backline moving a lot better than Jonny Wilkonson for example. He wasn't peerless but then only BOD is.
The media didn't enlighten the public about a lot of things. Sell by dates or Use before dates don't apply to legends - Phrases like closing out a game creep in instead.
So what's the beef - The beef is I want to see Ireland's best playing for Ireland and doing us proud. I do not want to see players representing Ireland when they've passed their sell by or use before date not to mention players being selected who were never up to it in the first instance. There has been a basic lack of honesty in Irish rugby selection for a long time and the press instead of highlighting the fact have actually reinforced it. I use ROG only as an example and after all he does not select himself, there are many other examples of players continuing to be selected when it was obvious they were no longer up to it.
The perception you mention doesn't affect the players but the other stuff I mentioned does. The players, better than anyone know who is up to it and who isn't. The players know when their chances of winning are being undermined by poor selection.

[Sauvignon Blank]

CA were very good for 25 odd mins, nothing special just very good. They then contrived to do a whole manner of silly things from then on in, missing passes,overlaps,kicks, unforced errors,wrong options etc. and got very complacent.

Munster were dazzled in the headlights and could do nothing but take what came their way. This game was so one sided (for a HC semi) in the 1st half it was embarrassing.

That munster were in with a shout near the end speaks volumes of CA and their lack of bottle IMHO and very little to do with munster being excellent, which BTW they most certainly were not. Munster offered no cutting edge, no decent backline plays, no continuity just a heap of turnovers and tackles.

ROG done very well by his own standards. He kicked the leather off the ball as per usual. As an attacking 10 he was distinctly average. The fella simply hasn't a clue how to get a backline going.

Munster done what any brawler on the ropes would do if he found himself still standing in the 12th after an onslaught. That is to say, get a second wind and throw the kitchen sink and hope for the best.

Had they snatched a try at the end it's fair to say CA would have been mugged/robbed, no question. The better team by a country mile won, should have won more handily but didn't.
Munster were poor for a lot of the game and good for a short period, that is all.


Comparisons with Embra are valid IMO. All this talk of turning corners is nonsense. There are no corners on a roundabout. Sad but true. Pointless throwing crumbs of comfort out to the Brave n faithful because they have serious problems that need to be adressed. A gallant display should not mask this.

What a post! Outstanding is the only word for this. What are you doing busking around sites like this? You should be making contributions to national sports columns. Get off your arse and get out there. It's about time someone told it how it is!

Its well written but its complete and utter drivel and factually incorrect.

Its all very easy to say that Clermont got complacent and started making errors - some evidence would be nice. And those errors are every bit as likely to be as a result of Munster pressure as much as Clermont mistakes

Your comments are completely subjective - Clermont were complacent, Munster were dazzled, Clermonts lack of bottle, Munsters lack of excellence - its well presented but there is no proof or evidence at all of any of this.

ROG done well by his own standards - presentation fell down a bit on that one. Whether you like it or not ROG played well by any standards against Clermont. If you had to pinpoint weaknesses in the Clermont team before the game what would they be - a possibly frail outhalf (although not having to kick helps him a lot), possibly some issues when it comes to big moments in big games, and wingers who can be dodgy when turned. Trying to run through or around Clermont simply wasn't going to work - Leinster have far more in their arsenal for that approach and they couldn't do it - Munster trying to take Clermont on in a game like that would have been a folly. Tactical attacking kicking was the right ploy for this Munster team on this particular day - it utilised their current strengths and also, luckily enough, targeted some of Clermonts possible weaknesses. What ROG did on Saturday, which he hasn't been doing with any regularity for the last two years was that he played flat, was well supported and kept Clermont guessing.

Rugby is not a game of same - there are different ways to approach a game. I hate watching rugby - yes they pick nice lines and have good off loads and lots of tries - but it still smacks of 26 robots taking turns smashing into each other. I love the fact that there are different ways of attacking and love the battle between different approaches - if you don't understand this, you don't understand rugby. Munster had a simple plan on Saturday - bring huge aggressiveness and abrasiveness from the start, don't let Clermont get too far ahead (because they were always going to come after us at the start) and play their way back into the game. What they did in the second half was exactly what Penney has been talking about all season (and what Schmidt talks about a lot) - they played what was in front of them. Sure Clermont got rattled, but that was as a direct result of the way that Munster played - pinning teams back is a complete valid attacking plan, because it often results in teams feeling the pressure - that pressure - all part of the game my friend

If Munster had won it it would not have been a mugging - it would have been a perfectly executed game plan - targeting the oppositions weaknesses using your strengths. At the moment we don't quite have enough ability to do it. We are not the all singing and all dancing Leinster team of the last couple of years - much as I enjoyed and admired them, quite frankly I don't want to be that team (although some of the success would be nice)

Comparisons with Edinburgh are complete nonsense - using the last five seasons (since we last won it) Edinburgh have come out of their pool once - they have 12 games out of 32. In that time frame Munster have reached three semi finals and one quarter final and have 26 of our 37 games. They lost all 6 games this year and had a points difference of -142 - do you really think thats going to happen to Munster next year

What you also fail to mention is the squad - we now have 8/9 guys under 25 who are first choice, and have generally two years of Heineken Cup rugby behind them, and not been found wanting - there are issues that need to be adressed absolutely - has a corner been turned - absolutely

Speaking of drivel, the underlined bits made me chuckle.

The first bit.....That is Munsters gameplan, ever since I first seen them play. Not just Saturday.

The second one.....'quite frankly I don't want to be that team' ?

So you wouldn't like to watch the liginds swashbuckle their way around Europe destroying all n sundry with scintillating rugby, gathering HCups with style and panache that has every pundit and his dog salivating at the mouth throwing out plaudits along the way such as..The greatest team in the history of European rugby

It's like a Stoke supporter moaning that he doesn't want his team to play like Barcelona.

Munster were average on Saturday and CA wobbled. The evidence is there, you need to open your eyes fella.

[VGE]

The evidence is mainly: ASM won on saturday.


Au revoir.

[deco]

The evidence is mainly: ASM won on saturday.


Au revoir.

That's correct, the rest is poppy-c~*k.

Looking forward to supporting your team in the final.

[Oldschool]

Is that really a solid foundation to build on? Maybe, it's hard to know. Leinster in 2009 didn't exactly look like potential champions until they suddenly found a different gear in the last few weeks of the season. That's the H-Cup for you, it's knockout rugby, the group stages are totally unbalanced, it's mad.

Thing is though we we're getting decent results in the league in 2008/2009 season and won the thing in 2007/2008 so it's a bit apples & oranges IMO. As I've posted elesewhere numerous times Muster need to get away from the media circus and hype that seems to generate around them. Might have been great in the "holy grail" years pre-2006 but its been doing them no favours since 2008.

Honest question - do you not think that Leinster have a very similar media hype - Leinstertainment and all that? I think we were late to implement change under McGahan and in general the style he wanted just wasn't going to work, but he reached two HC semis and a Q/F. What damage the hype does I'm not sure - it's either Sky doing their job or the marketing department doing theirs - F all to do with the rugby

Perhaps you should answer your own question.
Munster have GT, Mr George, Frankie, Hook, Quinlan, Lenihan, Keyes, Woodie etc pushing all things Munster in the media. All of the above getting serious exposure ie frequent contributors.
You give us your List for Leinster: Horgan, with Corrigan occasionally. Jackman again occasionally on Off the ball mostly. BOD when he was injured made a couple of guest appearances on Sky.
Ward at best is a neutral from a Leinster perspective.
Pope is at best neutral from a Munster perspective.
Conor O'Shea mostly a neutral.
so where do you think the balance lies?

[enby]

Perhaps you should answer your own question.
Munster have GT, Mr George, Frankie, Hook, Quinlan, Lenihan, Keyes, Woodie etc pushing all things Munster in the media. All of the above getting serious exposure ie frequent contributors.
You give us your List for Leinster: Horgan, with Corrigan occasionally. Jackman again occasionally on Off the ball mostly. BOD when he was injured made a couple of guest appearances on Sky.
Ward at best is a neutral from a Leinster perspective.
Pope is at best neutral from a Munster perspective.
Conor O'Shea mostly a neutral.
so where do you think the balance lies?


In fairness to him, Woodie is objective enough. You left out Micheal Corcoran and Eddie. No doubt Kidney will be wheeled out for a media career next season

[simonokeeffe]

Perhaps you should answer your own question.
Munster have GT, Mr George, Frankie, Hook, Quinlan, Lenihan, Keyes, Woodie etc pushing all things Munster in the media. All of the above getting serious exposure ie frequent contributors.
You give us your List for Leinster: Horgan, with Corrigan occasionally. Jackman again occasionally on Off the ball mostly. BOD when he was injured made a couple of guest appearances on Sky.
Ward at best is a neutral from a Leinster perspective.
Pope is at best neutral from a Munster perspective.
Conor O'Shea mostly a neutral.
so where do you think the balance lies?


In fairness to him, Woodie is objective enough. You left out Micheal Corcoran and Eddie. No doubt Kidney will be wheeled out for a media career next season

Kidney would be the worst pundit ever, would take five mins to not answer your question if you offered him a biscuit

[Peg Leg]

Perhaps you should answer your own question.
Munster have GT, Mr George, Frankie, Hook, Quinlan, Lenihan, Keyes, Woodie etc pushing all things Munster in the media. All of the above getting serious exposure ie frequent contributors.
You give us your List for Leinster: Horgan, with Corrigan occasionally. Jackman again occasionally on Off the ball mostly. BOD when he was injured made a couple of guest appearances on Sky.
Ward at best is a neutral from a Leinster perspective.
Pope is at best neutral from a Munster perspective.
Conor O'Shea mostly a neutral.
so where do you think the balance lies?


In fairness to him, Woodie is objective enough. You left out Micheal Corcoran and Eddie. No doubt Kidney will be wheeled out for a media career next season

Kidney would be the worst pundit ever, would take five mins to not answer your question if you offered him a biscuit

I can see him morphing into a Brian Kerr- opinion about everyone- type of guy and just lambasting every player that never made a DK squad.

[fourthirtythree]

I thought Munster had a fantastic couple of games, with a really exciting core of young players that have great futures, albeit the opposition had poor ones. But that's as nothing: my mickey is definitely bigger than all yours. Put together (UGH! Stop that!).

[ceemec]

What's this about ROG considering an offer from Toulon I heard mentioned on radio this morning? A year deal is on the table from Munster also apparently.

[johng]

Possibly this?

http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/is-r ... -0037256-1

[Dexter]

Possibly this?

http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/is-r ... -0037256-1

begin what many expect to be the road to one day becoming coach of Munster

Who are these "many"??

[simonokeeffe]

Perhaps you should answer your own question.
Munster have GT, Mr George, Frankie, Hook, Quinlan, Lenihan, Keyes, Woodie etc pushing all things Munster in the media. All of the above getting serious exposure ie frequent contributors.
You give us your List for Leinster: Horgan, with Corrigan occasionally. Jackman again occasionally on Off the ball mostly. BOD when he was injured made a couple of guest appearances on Sky.
Ward at best is a neutral from a Leinster perspective.
Pope is at best neutral from a Munster perspective.
Conor O'Shea mostly a neutral.
so where do you think the balance lies?


In fairness to him, Woodie is objective enough. You left out Micheal Corcoran and Eddie. No doubt Kidney will be wheeled out for a media career next season

Kidney would be the worst pundit ever, would take five mins to not answer your question if you offered him a biscuit

I can see him morphing into a Brian Kerr- opinion about everyone- type of guy and just lambasting every player that never made a DK squad.

Leinster and Ulster players that werent Lions so

Toulon deal coaching; playing deal abroad means he loses half a million on a rebate

"Toulon have a backs coach but it is suggested that O’Gara could come in as a skills or kicking coach with them or as a backs or attack coach in another French club." I mean this objectively but not sure of ROGs merits as an attack coach, maybe backs coach as even though he generally played in conservative teams he had a good skill set