Munster Thread 2011-2012

[hugonaut]

No, 29 is not the magic number. Getting more than 2 min. cameos sub appearances when the game is well won or well lost would be though.

Playing time:
Straus: 2115 mins. Harris-Wright 366. J. Fogs 103.
Varley 1770. Sherry 534. D. Fogs 351. Flannery: 53 mins.

Ah, I see. 534 mins of gametime is the magic number. It's nice to know. Pity to see that poor Aaron Dundon doesn't get any credit for the 53mins of gametime he put in last season [source: http://leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index. ... ef=dynamic ] – only 481 mins more and he would have 'proven himself'.

Seriously though, I think Sherry is a good young player with a good bit of potential. It's just that with 8 professional starts behind him [at first grade level, not B&I cup] he hasn't really done anything yet as a pro. All young players have their ups-and-downs acclimating to the rigours of week-in, week-out professional rugby. Maybe the Munster hype brigade should let him get a half season of rugby under his belt before they start acclaiming him as the chosen one?

Too much to ask, I know.

[munster#1]

So what you're saying is that Flannery at 53 mins is really not able for it at this level and should retire. Clearly if we base all decisions on amount of game time it's the only choice to be made.

I agree with you completely, game time and ability are not a direct comparrison. Ronk was trying to use game time to state that there was very little between sherry and jhw.

It is too simplistic a way to view this, the games they played in, the standard to which they played and who they got ahead of to get the game time, is more important.

I used the fact that sherry was brought to nz ahead of jhw and a few others to show he was ahead of them, which is also a great measure of the man, considering how few starts he had.

I know that me beating sherry's drum is getting boring and frustratiing, but i do believe he has the ability to be 3rd choice for ireland this season, if flannery doesn't return.

[Oldschool]

Anyway guys what's your read on where the Scarlets games can/will be won or lost. And Bonus point gained or conceded.
1. Unforced errors.
2. Discipline - Who's the ref?
3. Scrum
4. Lineout
5. Breakdown.
6. Forwards
7. Half Backs
8. Backs
9. Bench
9. Last but not least - Injuries

Worst case scenario for Munster is losing with a BP.

1. Unforced errors. Both sides are capable of producing these but Scarlets are far better at capitalising. Therefore I expect the ball will very rarely move beyond 10 for Munster with the pack and the set piece running the show thereby eliminating their error count.
2. Poite is the ref. As we all know, he rewards the scrum moving forward. Munster will be moving forward. Munster will earn penalties at the scrum. Regarding the breakdown, Munster have plenty of experience with Poite. They've been reffed by him 3 times in the HEC in the last 2 years. Scarlets haven't had him for several years so almost none of their players will have experienced him.
3. Munster will have the ascendancy. Scarlets "coped" with Northampton's cheating by cheating themselves and trying every awkward bind in the book to barely survive. Botha will beat them fair and square and they'll struggle.
4. If Varley can perform, serious advantage to Munster. There's a massive disparity in the quality of the respective jumpers. Scarlets line out is a shambles. They lost 5 on their own throw against Northampton. POC should have a field day.
5. Close but whoever plays Poite better will profit. Scarlets have a mediocre back row. Munster have an above average one. Keep their heads and they'll be fine. They also have better depth in the back row and I think their centres are going to be used to clear out as much as in the midfield.
6. No comparison. Munster.
7. Even but it will depend on if Scarlets can get decent ball and what Munster decide to do with their ball.
8. Scarlets but they'll be nullified if they don't have the ball. They're not good enough to beat a side with 20% of possession. Munster won't be bringing their back three into it much at all I would think.
9. Munster obviously far more affected. I think Scarlets will be full strength but the important thing is where the injuries are. Packs win games. Munster have, minus Wallace, their most aggressive and physical pack available.

Munster to either squeak a win or, if they play stupid tactics, lose with a BP. They'll win and deny Scarlets a BP in Thomond putting them even. I can see them getting taking the necessary points from the last two games to top the pool.

Forgot to add in Defence - Playing the 10 man game which you suggest (Agree) Munster should pick their best defensive backs.
This would rule Chambers to the bench for me, both Keatley and Johne are better defenders.
It's at times like this that I bet the Munster coach is sorry he didn't give Hurley a run at inside centre.

[munster#1]

dave where are you getting this info from? Sure if a contract was offered, then there would be written proof?
For now i will believe the people close to cronin rather than an ulster man on the internet. I am open to correction.

yes, because I have the written proof and am quite willing to share it on the internet.

Actually, these people close to cronin...seeing as you are all about the proof, you will of course have no problem naming them, and of course your own name, and that should settle it.


But, if you'd like, ask them did Sean receive anything interesting in the post in October 2009 and again in September 2010.

I know its hard to come to terms with, but professional players look at setup of the clubs they are considering signing with, and in the current environment theres simply no contest between Munster and Leinster.

Well tbf if you have the written proof then there is little point in me naming people as liars, but until then my friend, i will put my belief in them.

[Oldschool]

So what you're saying is that Flannery at 53 mins is really not able for it at this level and should retire. Clearly if we base all decisions on amount of game time it's the only choice to be made.

I agree with you completely, game time and ability are not a direct comparrison. Ronk was trying to use game time to state that there was very little between sherry and jhw.

It is too simplistic a way to view this, the games they played in, the standard to which they played and who they got ahead of to get the game time, is more important.

I used the fact that sherry was brought to nz ahead of jhw and a few others to show he was ahead of them, which is also a great measure of the man, considering how few starts he had.

I know that me beating sherry's drum is getting boring and frustratiing, but i do believe he has the ability to be 3rd choice for ireland this season, if flannery doesn't return.

M#1 I am of the opinion that Munster are making the mistake of thinking that Wallace and Flannery returning will fix a lot of problems, even if it's only for one season.
Flannery (unfortunately) is unlikely ever to regain full fitness and even if he does he won't be the same player.
Wallace was already on the wane before his injury and again is unlikely to compare favourably with his former self.
You have a decent enough set of BR players as it is, a little small maybe, but certainly very competitive and extremely mobile.
Ryan adds a lot more grunt than DOC ever did - and delivers all the time and not in the useless one offs and dribs and drabs you get from DOC.
He's also a lot more disciplined. His extra grunt compensates for the BR.
Injury permitting you're fine in the FR. Botha seems to have got over his Belfast blues in that regard.
Rog is on the wane too, but not so much as you'd notice. He has become very one dimensional.
Your coach needs to bite this bullet and use Keatley as a tactical substitution for Rog.
Until he does this he's not running the show and neither will Munster.
This is not a dig at Rog, but he made a good start with DOC and needs to finish the job.
Having an "annointed few" class in any team is counter productive.
I'll give you an example - Your last game against Ospreys.
You were muck and yet when the substitutions were made and the big guns were brought on you were still muck.
Keatley should have had his 20 mins with Murray, to see how that would work. Tol should have come off at half time.

[janeymac08]

No, 29 is not the magic number. Getting more than 2 min. cameos sub appearances when the game is well won or well lost would be though.

Playing time:
Straus: 2115 mins. Harris-Wright 366. J. Fogs 103.
Varley 1770. Sherry 534. D. Fogs 351. Flannery: 53 mins.

Ah, I see. 534 mins of gametime is the magic number. It's nice to know. Pity to see that poor Aaron Dundon doesn't get any credit for the 53mins of gametime he put in last season [source: http://leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index. ... ef=dynamic ] – only 481 mins more and he would have 'proven himself'.

Seriously though, I think Sherry is a good young player with a good bit of potential. It's just that with 8 professional starts behind him [at first grade level, not B&I cup] he hasn't really done anything yet as a pro. All young players have their ups-and-downs acclimating to the rigours of week-in, week-out professional rugby. Maybe the Munster hype brigade should let him get a half season of rugby under his belt before they start acclaiming him as the chosen one?

Too much to ask, I know.

You are the one who started using starts to indicate that Sherry is no better than H-W.

534 is way better than 366 considering that the only alternatives to Straus were HW & Dundon once J. Fogs had to retire. Munster had D. Fogs who played 351 minutes to fall back on as well.

[TerenureJim]

You are the one who started using starts to indicate that Sherry is no better than H-W.

534 is way better than 366 considering that the only alternatives to Straus were HW & Dundon once J. Fogs had to retire. Munster had D. Fogs who played 351 minutes to fall back on as well.

JHW played in a HEC final and was on the winners podium. How many HEC medals have Sherry and Varley got in their back pockets?

[munster#1]

You are the one who started using starts to indicate that Sherry is no better than H-W.

534 is way better than 366 considering that the only alternatives to Straus were HW & Dundon once J. Fogs had to retire. Munster had D. Fogs who played 351 minutes to fall back on as well.

JHW played in a HEC final and was on the winners podium. How many HEC medals have Sherry and Varley got in their back pockets?

Ah now, come on TJ, i didn't think you would pull that card. I thought you were better than that. Dowling has 2 hc medals, how many did hickie win?

Playing in a hc final, does not mean much on it's own. Varley has a few caps and sherry was deemed ahead of jhw for the rwc. Ask yourself, right now, which player is more likely to get capped over the next 12 months? Sherry is a good bit ahead of jhw as things stand.

[Dave Cahill]

You are the one who started using starts to indicate that Sherry is no better than H-W.

534 is way better than 366 considering that the only alternatives to Straus were HW & Dundon once J. Fogs had to retire. Munster had D. Fogs who played 351 minutes to fall back on as well.

JHW played in a HEC final and was on the winners podium. How many HEC medals have Sherry and Varley got in their back pockets?

Ah now, come on TJ, i didn't think you would pull that card. I thought you were better than that. Dowling has 2 hc medals, how many did hickie win?

Playing in a hc final, does not mean much on it's own. Varley has a few caps and sherry was deemed ahead of jhw for the rwc. Ask yourself, right now, which player is more likely to get capped over the next 12 months? Sherry is a good bit ahead of jhw as things stand.

No question of that, and the Medals thing is pretty invalid, but then so is the trumpeting of the Sherrys world cup call up, when you look at who was left, and who was left behind...Fogs minor, Kyriacou, Brady, Dundon -no question hes ahead of those, but who isn't!

Sherry is a talented prospect, but to say any more than that is to enter the realms of fantasy because there is just no evidence (either way) to support anything else.

[janeymac08]

But, if you'd like, ask them did Sean receive anything interesting in the post in October 2009 and again in September 2010.

I know its hard to come to terms with, but professional players look at setup of the clubs they are considering signing with, and in the current environment theres simply no contest between Munster and Leinster.

In Sept 10 Sherry was going into his 2nd year in the Munster Academy and he had played 13 mins of Magners rugby the previous season. He started getting gametime in October 10 - a couple of weeks after Munster's last piece of correspondence with Cronin. Seems to me like Munster went cold on bringing Cronin back and backed Sherry (3 years younger Cronin).

I wouldn't dispute that players look at the set-up of clubs - which would include what gametime they would get and what their chances of being first choice are.

[hugonaut]

You are the one who started using starts to indicate that Sherry is no better than H-W.

534 is way better than 366 considering that the only alternatives to Straus were HW & Dundon once J. Fogs had to retire. Munster had D. Fogs who played 351 minutes to fall back on as well.

No, I was the one who noted that Sherry hadn't played that much more rugby than JHW, and that it was a bit rash to anoint him as God's gift to hooker. Forgive me for using information about actual things that have happened to compare players. I should definitely have just relied on what somebody told me or my gut feeling!

For what it's worth, I think Sherry is a better hooker than JHW, and have never said otherwise. As DC says though, he "is a talented prospect, but to say any more than that is to enter the realms of fantasy because there is just no evidence (either way) to support anything else."

[TerenureJim]

You are the one who started using starts to indicate that Sherry is no better than H-W.

534 is way better than 366 considering that the only alternatives to Straus were HW & Dundon once J. Fogs had to retire. Munster had D. Fogs who played 351 minutes to fall back on as well.

JHW played in a HEC final and was on the winners podium. How many HEC medals have Sherry and Varley got in their back pockets?

Ah now, come on TJ, i didn't think you would pull that card. I thought you were better than that. Dowling has 2 hc medals, how many did hickie win?

Playing in a hc final, does not mean much on it's own. Varley has a few caps and sherry was deemed ahead of jhw for the rwc. Ask yourself, right now, which player is more likely to get capped over the next 12 months? Sherry is a good bit ahead of jhw as things stand.

I was just throwing it out there to go with all the other nonsense re game time, RWC call up etc. that's getting bandied about. You could technically describe JHW as a HEC winning hooker is all I'm saying not saying he was pulling up trees or the like but if you want a press blurb well there it is.

In all honesty it'll be interesting to see who comes out on top in Munster Varley or Sherry in due course but for the moment neither are looking like international class and the national set up needs these guys to be pushing on.

[ronk]

So what you're saying is that Flannery at 53 mins is really not able for it at this level and should retire. Clearly if we base all decisions on amount of game time it's the only choice to be made.

I agree with you completely, game time and ability are not a direct comparrison. Ronk was trying to use game time to state that there was very little between sherry and jhw.

It is too simplistic a way to view this, the games they played in, the standard to which they played and who they got ahead of to get the game time, is more important.

I used the fact that sherry was brought to nz ahead of jhw and a few others to show he was ahead of them, which is also a great measure of the man, considering how few starts he had.

I know that me beating sherry's drum is getting boring and frustratiing, but i do believe he has the ability to be 3rd choice for ireland this season, if flannery doesn't return.

I was making comments on the unwisdom of making sweeping comments about young players based on limited gametime. I don't for a moment think that JHW has any chance of making the 6N squad, but I've agreed that Sherry might. It's not like he'd have to do all that much if he could return soon. As things stand it's a case of whoever is the first choice Munster hooker between Fogarty, Varley and Sherry will be 3rd choice for Ireland, more or less automatically (until Strauss qualifies, at least).

JHW has a lot of potential and could end up being a better player than Sherry in the long term, but I was saying that there's not a lot of point hyping him. Sherry is coming through in a position where there's a fair bit of depth and he has a long way to go. If he starts ripping up trees then that's good for Ireland, but until then there's not a lot of point in calling for his inclusion in international squads or even elevation to matchday squads. He's an injured, inexperienced young player who's looked decent when called upon in his cameos.

[Donny B.]

Breaking News on Off the Ball: Simon Zebo fit to start on Saturday.

Not having a go as Zebo, who I rate, but they seem to be pinning a lot of hope on a kid who's never played in HC before.

[Cianostays]

I suppose Zebo does possess raw speed if nothing else. They don't really have much other choice than to put their faith in him. What time is the Scarlets-Munster match anyhoo?

[Leinsterman]

Breaking News on Off the Ball: Simon Zebo fit to start on Saturday.

Not having a go as Zebo, who I rate, but they seem to be pinning a lot of hope on a kid who's never played in HC before.

Wait a minute. The press are hyping up a Munster player?
As was once said in Father Ted:

"f%~kin' hell"

[Dave Cahill]

I suppose Zebo does possess raw speed if nothing else. They don't really have much other choice than to put their faith in him. What time is the Scarlets-Munster match anyhoo?

We should be all out of HPA by then, so it'll be about 10 past Bombardier

[munster#1]

Breaking News on Off the Ball: Simon Zebo fit to start on Saturday.

Not having a go as Zebo, who I rate, but they seem to be pinning a lot of hope on a kid who's never played in HC before.

All we can do is pin hope on him. I am unsure how i rate zebo, he appears to have a great eye for a gap, and as a former sprinter, he has a lot gas, my one real issue with him is his decision making and of course his lack of experience.

Howlett rates zebo very highly, so hopefully he turns in a good peformance and kick on his career from there.

[Dave Cahill]

Interesting stat - well it depends on your definition of interesting really

since 05 06 Munster and Llanelli have played each other 16 times in 'senior' competition - with Munster winning a whopping 13 of those 16 games - and every game since March 07 (HEC qtr final)

[Apocrypha]

Anyway guys what's your read on where the Scarlets games can/will be won or lost. And Bonus point gained or conceded.
1. Unforced errors.
2. Discipline - Who's the ref?
3. Scrum
4. Lineout
5. Breakdown.
6. Forwards
7. Half Backs
8. Backs
9. Bench
9. Last but not least - Injuries

Worst case scenario for Munster is losing with a BP.

1. Unforced errors. Both sides are capable of producing these but Scarlets are far better at capitalising. Therefore I expect the ball will very rarely move beyond 10 for Munster with the pack and the set piece running the show thereby eliminating their error count.
2. Poite is the ref. As we all know, he rewards the scrum moving forward. Munster will be moving forward. Munster will earn penalties at the scrum. Regarding the breakdown, Munster have plenty of experience with Poite. They've been reffed by him 3 times in the HEC in the last 2 years. Scarlets haven't had him for several years so almost none of their players will have experienced him.
3. Munster will have the ascendancy. Scarlets "coped" with Northampton's cheating by cheating themselves and trying every awkward bind in the book to barely survive. Botha will beat them fair and square and they'll struggle.
4. If Varley can perform, serious advantage to Munster. There's a massive disparity in the quality of the respective jumpers. Scarlets line out is a shambles. They lost 5 on their own throw against Northampton. POC should have a field day.
5. Close but whoever plays Poite better will profit. Scarlets have a mediocre back row. Munster have an above average one. Keep their heads and they'll be fine. They also have better depth in the back row and I think their centres are going to be used to clear out as much as in the midfield.
6. No comparison. Munster.
7. Even but it will depend on if Scarlets can get decent ball and what Munster decide to do with their ball.
8. Scarlets but they'll be nullified if they don't have the ball. They're not good enough to beat a side with 20% of possession. Munster won't be bringing their back three into it much at all I would think.
9. Munster obviously far more affected. I think Scarlets will be full strength but the important thing is where the injuries are. Packs win games. Munster have, minus Wallace, their most aggressive and physical pack available.

Munster to either squeak a win or, if they play stupid tactics, lose with a BP. They'll win and deny Scarlets a BP in Thomond putting them even. I can see them getting taking the necessary points from the last two games to top the pool.

Very salient points. My fundamental concern though is our tactics. We should have hammered the Os last weekend, but lacked the discipline early on to put them to the sword. Too many guys were forcing the plays - DOC/Keats in particular - and allowed them back into the game. McGahanball needs to finally be put to bed.

Given our platform in the scrum and lineout, we also need to batter them in the forwards and return to well orchestrated rolling mauls (no more amateur truck'n'trailor f*ukups!), and ad infinitum pick'n'goes. As our centres lack guile they should also be told to puncture pockets at pace in the weaker 10 channel. The ball should not go out past 13 unless the result is beyond doubt. How our wings/fb handle Priesland's garryownens will also be of crucial importance.