Munster Thread 2011-2012

[hugonaut]

This is a bit of a tired topic [Umaga vs O'Driscoll]. The merits of Umaga as a coach are well worth discussion though.

[tackle-bag]

I remember you coming out with similar sentiments at the time of the Christchurch earthquake. Do you have a problem with Kiwis generally? Does that include the likes of Joe Schmidt, Jono Gibbes and Isa Nacewa?

Would love to see what you mean by that comment. The only thing I did at the time of the Christchurch earthquake was to question what the hell blues_fan was doing on here wumming away at a time of national tragedy in New Zealand. Of course the PC brigade on here went mental and started purporting to apologise on my behalf.

Anyway, since everyone else is so interested as to why I think that the spear on BOD was premeditated, I'll give you a few reasons:- (a) the ball was long gone, so there was no need to complete such a "clearing out" manoeuvre; (b) there was no proper contest at the ruck, so there was no need to complete such a "clearing out" manouevre; (c) it happened in the first few minutes of the first test of a hugely significant tour; (d) BOD was the captain and probably the most important player to that Lions team; (e) the eyes of both players were on BOD's upper half as they drove him into the ground, yet they proceeded with the spear; (f) both players were working in unison with a level of synchronisation that is rarely seen at ruck-time; (f) Umaga can be seen in the various clips to lean over BOD triumphantly after he hits the ground; (g) neither player ever properly apologised for what occurred, despite formal IRB condemnation. I could go on. No, I wasn't in the AB dressing room before the game. But there's a sufficient amount of circumstantial evidence upon which to base a claim that the "tackle" constituted a premeditated attack.

[Jackal]

Thought Munster were poor for large periods against Warriors but overall were obviously the better team. POM was very impressive. Is going to be a star. Sherry again was very good and the 2 jersey is his now. Keatley was very inconsistent and is not the long term answer. Murphy I think will struggle to hold onto his place next season. Hasn't been anywhere near good enough. Jones was good though as was Zebo in attack.

In terms of looking at next year I personally think that Axel will get the job. Not sure he is right man this time around but I do think he will do ok. I would bring in a John Kirwan as head man and let Axel look after forwards a couple more years before getting top job. Foley knows the Munster set up, he knows the young players through his involvement with the A team which can only be a good thing. Negatives are he is inexperienced and his year as defence coach showed up some weaknesses. I thought that aspect to Munsters game was quite poor that year. Shows that maybe he is a bit one dimensional in his coaching ability at the moment and could do with working on other aspects of his coaching other than just forwards. By bringing in a Kirwan or someone like that Foley could grow as a coach before getting the head job.

In terms of Umaga, what he did with BOD was wrong but that was in the past and his potential involvement is a look to the future and so I will look at it as such. I wouldn't touch him and I wouldn't solely based on his coaching credentials. Has done less than Foley in his coaching career and is way to in experienced. His time with Toulon wasn't exactly covered in glory and not sure what he brings to the table. If I thought that he was going to turn out as a world class coach I would not let his past issues affect his appointment but I don't think he will be a world class coach or anything near it and would avoid him for that reason. I also would avoid him because a ticket with him and Foley is far too inexperienced and Foley is guarranted to be on the ticket one way or the other and likely head coach and ne needs comeone experienced with him and so another reason I would avoid Umaga.

Whoever does get the job has plenty of talent to stay in contention. If you were to put out a potential starting Munster 15 for next season it would be quite strong and challenge for the Heineken and Rabo. Lots of good young players coming through like Paddy Butler and JJ Hanrahan should also see some time next year and could develop into very good players. I'm fairly optimistic that Munster will be back next season as strong contenders across the board. Need to find good tight head and out half though in terms of the future

[janeymac08]

(g) neither player ever properly apologised for what occurred, despite formal IRB condemnation. I could go on. No, I wasn't in the AB dressing room before the game. But there's a sufficient amount of circumstantial evidence upon which to base a claim that the "tackle" constituted a premeditated attack.

According to BOD, they spoke and decided to not divulge what was said. Secondly, the IRB did not condemn the tackle. They ignored it.
On Umaga's character, he stopped play against Wales to help Colin Jarvis who had swallowed his tongue. He got an award for sportsmanship for that. Doesn't sound like someone who would premeditate injuring an other player.

John Afoa pleaded not guilty to the tip tackle on Jones. Does that mean he is 'scum' because he didn't apologise as he saw nothing wrong with the tackle in the first place.

Just for a bit of balance

[janeymac08]

jackle, just one point on your excellent post. Munster's defence when Foley was defence coach was top class. (Munster won the league last year don't forget conceeding 22 tries. Leinster conceeded 25 and were second in the league). Munster conceeded 9 tries in the Heineken Cup group stages (same as Leinster).

[tackle-bag]

Secondly, the IRB did not condemn the tackle. They ignored it.

Yes the IRB most certainly did condemn the tackle, albeit only after new footage came to light:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/column ... njury.html

"This footage wasn't available at the time and the IRB are unable to act retrospectively because the two sides had both signed a tour agreement whereby disciplinary matters had to be resolved within 12 hours of the match," IRB spokesman Greg Thomas said last night. "But we have subsequently been able to view the video and we are determined that such tackles are removed from the game. They're totally unacceptable and have absolutely no place in rugby."

[blues_fan]

Would love to see what you mean by that comment. The only thing I did at the time of the Christchurch earthquake was to question what the hell blues_fan was doing on here wumming away at a time of national tragedy in New Zealand. Of course the PC brigade on here went mental and started purporting to apologise on my behalf.

Anyway, since everyone else is so interested as to why I think that the spear on BOD was premeditated, I'll give you a few reasons:- (a) the ball was long gone, so there was no need to complete such a "clearing out" manoeuvre; (b) there was no proper contest at the ruck, so there was no need to complete such a "clearing out" manouevre; (c) it happened in the first few minutes of the first test of a hugely significant tour; (d) BOD was the captain and probably the most important player to that Lions team; (e) the eyes of both players were on BOD's upper half as they drove him into the ground, yet they proceeded with the spear; (f) both players were working in unison with a level of synchronisation that is rarely seen at ruck-time; (g) Umaga can be seen in the various clips to lean over BOD triumphantly after he hits the ground; (h) neither player ever properly apologised for what occurred, despite formal IRB condemnation. I could go on. No, I wasn't in the AB dressing room before the game. But there's a sufficient amount of circumstantial evidence upon which to base a claim that the "tackle" constituted a premeditated attack.

All of those simply infer much simpler and innocent explanations(a,e,f), are false(b,g), or irrelevant(h), which doesn't leave you with anything with which to get past the act being reckless or careless.

Just think of the ridiculous precedent you are setting too. The same reasoning could be applied to any incident on the pitch and would change the default position to every act being deliberate until the offender can prove otherwise. Every high tackle is premeditated, and if you happen to do it on a high profile player in a high profile game it becomes a conspiracy. Take Heaslip's kneeing incident. With your reasoning it would be easy to infer he ran out there on a mission to take out McCaw. However, isn't the most obvious and simple explanation that he was frustrated at a ruck and he momentarily blew a gasket coincidentally while McCaw was there? It was reckless and stupid even, but no sane person thinks he ran out there with a search and destroy mission for McCaw, until evidence shows otherwise. No doubt some kiwis would have gone mental and come up with the same stuff you have come up with if Heaslip had(god forbid) put McCaw out for 6 months. That is wrong. You've fallen into this same trap and let your emotional attachment to a player cloud your judgment.

Anyway this thread is getting derailed enough as it is, perhaps we should move on to the more substantive and relevant criticisms of Tana at this time, which is his rubbish coaching record.

[Sauvignon Blank]

(g) neither player ever properly apologised for what occurred, despite formal IRB condemnation. I could go on. No, I wasn't in the AB dressing room before the game. But there's a sufficient amount of circumstantial evidence upon which to base a claim that the "tackle" constituted a premeditated attack.

According to BOD, they spoke and decided to not divulge what was said. Secondly, the IRB did not condemn the tackle. They ignored it.
On Umaga's character, he stopped play against Wales to help Colin Jarvis who had swallowed his tongue. He got an award for sportsmanship for that. Doesn't sound like someone who would premeditate injuring an other player.

John Afoa pleaded not guilty to the tip tackle on Jones. Does that mean he is 'scum' because he didn't apologise as he saw nothing wrong with the tackle in the first place.

Just for a bit of balance

No question that any one of the NZ players was, if presented with an opportunity, going to take out the B&I Lions captain and possiblly the most influential player.

The fact it took Umaga and the other coward Mealamu to do this beggared belief. 2 players picking up a smaller and lighter player and driving him head first into the ground.

Umaga & Mealamu were/are cowards and liars in denial despite your hilarious defence of the former.

Perhaps you also believe ROG wasn't targeted by Duncan McRae on the OZ lions tour in a premeditated fashion?
I seem to remember the Brave n Faithful certainly thought so at the time if you recall events around his return to turnip park with Gloucester?
Apparently McRae once helped a little old lady cross the road.

[sarah_lennon]

hines choking rog

Ronan O'Gara apologised to Nathan Hines over those claims.

[fourthirtythree]

hines choking rog

Ronan O'Gara apologised to Nathan Hines over those claims.

I'm pretty shocked to see that claim (of deliberate choking) repeated here. Eddie O'Sullivan disgraced himself with that claim and O'Gara should never have stood by it. O'Gara was knocked out by a member of his own team.

Seriously M1. Check your facts on that one. It's not cool.

[Scott]

hines choking rog

Ronan O'Gara apologised to Nathan Hines over those claims.

I'm pretty shocked to see that claim (of deliberate choking) repeated here. Eddie O'Sullivan disgraced himself with that claim and O'Gara should never have stood by it. O'Gara was knocked out by a member of his own team.


Seriously M1. Check your facts on that one. It's not cool.

are you seriously questioning munster#1 facts. he knows more family members and very close personal friends of the current squad than g fitzgerald

[Turnip Boy]

These things happen in games, it was embarrassing the whining that went on after this incident. This is not directed at leinster fans as there were as many munster fans with the same opinion.

That's an absolutely ludicrous comment in my view. Deliberate assaults on the opposing captain, with a view to taking him out of the game, are thankfully a very rare occurrence in professional sports. It is even more unusual that the assailant should achieve their desired aim and rule one of the greatest players in the history of the sport out of action for a sizeable chunk of his career. Stranger again is it for all of this to occur but for the guilty party to escape without punishment.

Most right-thinking Irish fans will never forgive Umaga or Mealamu for such an act of premeditated thuggery, nor should they. I wish nothing but the worst for the pair of them. If either of them was hit by a bus tomorrow morning, I wouldn't be able to care less.

Should the irish fans forgive D'Arcy for his spear tackle on Tipoki in the Maori game on that tour? Or is that acceptable because Tipoki was just lucky he wasn't injured.

[Broken Wing]

hines choking rog

This never happened.

How do I know?

RO'G said it never happened.

There's enough off the ball dodginess on the rugby pitch without repeating imaginary incidents.

[Dave Cahill]

Ah you can't beat the turnipstanis for a bit of 'look what the other boy did'.

[munster#1]

hines choking rog

Ronan O'Gara apologised to Nathan Hines over those claims.

I'm pretty shocked to see that claim (of deliberate choking) repeated here. Eddie O'Sullivan disgraced himself with that claim and O'Gara should never have stood by it. O'Gara was knocked out by a member of his own team.

Seriously M1. Check your facts on that one. It's not cool.

Ok perhaps a bad example, i do not recall o gara apologising for saying he did, but the point remains the same imo.
There was a massive over reaction to the incident, and apparently the hatered still exists.

Umaga was a fantastic player to watch, one of the greats imo, yet some people only remember him for a dump tackle. I am not saying he should not have been banned for it, but all it was was a bit of stupidity, that unfortunately injured the player he tackled.

As was said earlier, if heaslip had broken mccaws cheek bone or eye socket with his equally stupid behaviour, should we have alo branded him a scumbag, and wish only the worst for him. Should the fact that mc caw walked away unharmed make a difference? Imo no.
Both should be judged on their careers, not one single incident.

Which brings this back on track, the reason umaga should not get the job has little to do with what happened 7yrs ago, and more to do with his cv.

[CiaranIrl]

Anyway this thread is getting derailed enough as it is, perhaps we should move on to the more substantive and relevant criticisms of Tana at this time, which is his rubbish coaching record.

Yes. Great point. Incredibly talented player, but it would be a joke if he got appointed. He is coaching a mediocre division 2 team in NZ. It would be an appointment as stupid as Martin Johnson. All name and aura and no actual experience or ability. There is no evidence whatsoever that he has anything close to the coaching ability required for even the role of a back's coach. There are unpaid school teachers in NZ with twice the coaching ability and tactical acumen as this guy.

I have to assume that this is all a smokescreen.

[sarah_lennon]

Lads, lads, lads,

Look Brian and Tana have let all that water go under the bridge.



Now let's let Munster get on with their business!!

[Broken Wing]

i do not recall o gara apologising for saying he did, but the point remains the same imo.
There was a massive over reaction to the incident, and apparently the hatered still exists.

What hatred? Who hates who? Do players hate each other over something that didn't happen or do supporters of a team hate a player for something they never did and subsequently received apologies about from the accusers?

Dig up.

[janeymac08]

Secondly, the IRB did not condemn the tackle. They ignored it.

Yes the IRB most certainly did condemn the tackle, albeit only after new footage came to light:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/column ... njury.html

"This footage wasn't available at the time and the IRB are unable to act retrospectively because the two sides had both signed a tour agreement whereby disciplinary matters had to be resolved within 12 hours of the match," IRB spokesman Greg Thomas said last night. "But we have subsequently been able to view the video and we are determined that such tackles are removed from the game. They're totally unacceptable and have absolutely no place in rugby."

The IRB did something about it 3 months later mostly informed by the media campaign led by the B+I spin doctors to cover up their own inadequacies on the tour. D'Arcy speared Tipoki a few days earlier, and the only sanction was a penalty. There was no outcry about that being a dangerous tackle from the NZRU or the IRB.

[janeymac08]

(g) neither player ever properly apologised for what occurred, despite formal IRB condemnation. I could go on. No, I wasn't in the AB dressing room before the game. But there's a sufficient amount of circumstantial evidence upon which to base a claim that the "tackle" constituted a premeditated attack.

According to BOD, they spoke and decided to not divulge what was said. Secondly, the IRB did not condemn the tackle. They ignored it.
On Umaga's character, he stopped play against Wales to help Colin Jarvis who had swallowed his tongue. He got an award for sportsmanship for that. Doesn't sound like someone who would premeditate injuring an other player.

John Afoa pleaded not guilty to the tip tackle on Jones. Does that mean he is 'scum' because he didn't apologise as he saw nothing wrong with the tackle in the first place.

Just for a bit of balance

No question that any one of the NZ players was, if presented with an opportunity, going to take out the B&I Lions captain and possiblly the most influential player. Wasn't (isn't) that the style of play (big hits) that is prevalent in the SH? Hurt the opposition

The fact it took Umaga and the other coward Mealamu to do this beggared belief. 2 players picking up a smaller and lighter player and driving him head first into the ground. What is the 'fact' you speak of. Is John Afoa a coward for the way he tackled Felix Jones.

Umaga & Mealamu were/are cowards and liars in denial despite your hilarious defence of the former. Don't think they got an opportunity to say anything about it as the IRB deemed they had nothing to answer for. Then the Lions campaign to vilify Umaga & the ABs got underway. The Lions were less than honest. They used Brian O'Driscoll to cover up their own inadequacies.

Perhaps you also believe ROG wasn't targeted by Duncan McRae on the OZ lions tour in a premeditated fashion? I seem to remember the Brave n Faithful certainly thought so at the time if you recall events around his return to turnip park with Gloucester? I doubt if McRae premeditated the attack. He just lost control of himself.

Apparently McRae once helped a little old lady cross the road. Easy to do that. But I'd say that if the gut instinct of a player was to stop play when his team were on the attack because one of the opposition looked to be in trouble would suggest to me that this guy would not go out and deliberately try to injure another player.