Munster Thread 2010/2011

[ruck]

Well I hope you'll at least come out for a drink afterwards! Some things are sacred!

Oh but of course. I'll be in Dolan's probably pre, during and post match.

[johng]

Well I hope you'll at least come out for a drink afterwards! Some things are sacred!

Oh but of course. I'll be in Dolan's probably pre, during and post match.

Will You order us up a bit of grub for 9 people.

[ruck]

Well I hope you'll at least come out for a drink afterwards! Some things are sacred!

Oh but of course. I'll be in Dolan's probably pre, during and post match.

Will You order us up a bit of grub for 9 people.

I'll order for 10, but you're paying.

[johng]

Will You order us up a bit of grub for 9 people.

I'll order for 10, but you're paying.

No Sweat. I'll be starving by then.

[Slipper1]

Oh but of course. I'll be in Dolan's probably pre, during and post match.

Will You order us up a bit of grub for 9 people.

I'll order for 10, but you're paying.

I think we'll be there before 10, but John's still paying.

[TerenureJim]

Please note I'm not trying to WUM and I think Munster were full value for their win on Saturday, even if I think there were some suspect calls from Owens, but what do people think as regards Munster for the season? Is the Magners league win, despite their great run of results in it all season, just peppering over the cracks in the structures that McGahn has in place down there?

[ruck]

I'd be slightly more positive now than I was 3 or 4 months ago. We at least have some young talent coming through now that we can build around. If the rumoured signings of the 2 Smiths is true, we could be very strong again next year. Longer term, there is more talent to come through. Peter O'Mahony really should have pushed on more this year, but was unlucky to get that neck injury when he did. Nagle has progressed nicely this season too. Paddy Butler will hopefully make some progress along with these lads during the world cup. Danny Barnes has started to look a decent prospect too and there's JJ Hanrahan to hopefully get a shot too, soon. If all of those guys named can progress, then along with Murray, Earls, Jones we have a strong foundation going forward.

[olaf the fat]

Please note I'm not trying to WUM and I think Munster were full value for their win on Saturday, even if I think there were some suspect calls from Owens, but what do people think as regards Munster for the season? Is the Magners league win, despite their great run of results in it all season, just peppering over the cracks in the structures that McGahn has in place down there?

Hayes, Wallace, ROG, Dougie all approaching old age- but still in fine form. Wallace seeming to improve the older he gets, but the final was Hayes best show in a while. They are only getting half a season out of POC with injuries and International duty. Take them out and they would not have won the MLGF

They do have some great young players. I think our current coaching team has done a great job this season, introducing and really blooding the young guys, yet you could see how tried we were in the final- few of their munster counterparts get this experience before their mid twenties so unless they follow Joes lead they wont be able to compete in both competitions.

I remember reading POC and DOC talking about Munster training when they were young guys. The first choice locks would not tell them the calls in training and gave them a hard time - These guys had to be displaced to get your chance. That worked fine when the step from club to province was not as big, but now teams compete at a much higher level and with many more games. I hope this attitude has completely changed!

Young guys need to be playing ML and subbing on for Hcup games. Otherwise you just end up like Northampton, not able to make that extra push, like Munster pre '06 and us pre'09.

So basically give the young talant they already have their heads, and bring in few world class players(no sammy twoytwopeas) and the munster machine rolls on. We do the same and alls well for Irish rugby

[hugonaut]

'Peppering over the cracks' is a new one to me, Jim - thinking of your lunch already or have you been reading the sambo thread?

Munster's season was never as bad as it was cracked up to be – almost anybody looking at the league table would be able to see that. I tend to follow Munster quite closely, and post on Munsterfans quite a bit; besides a sizeable portion of cranks and spoofers, there's a good few people who know their onions there.

It would be my opinion that there was a readily observable sense of entitlement within the Munster fan-base, though not amongst all of them, by any means. The team has provided them with a lot of success in the last ten years, and people had gotten used to reaching Heineken Cup finals [four in eight years is a serious achievement]. That led to a lot of new fans, as will happen with any successful sports team. Because the successful period lasted for so long, these 'new' fans became established fans and, having been fans only for a successful period, began to take success a little for granted. Some of our supporter's reaction to Leinster's recent Heineken Cup success has unfortunately reminded me of some Munster 2008 fan comments: "Leinster aren't our rivals. Our rivals are Toulouse etc."

And yet, no matter how often it was presented that Toulouse, Leicester, Wasps and Leinster had all failed to qualify from the HEC group stages in the very recent past, and that every team has to rebuild and/or transition, it didn't seem like a particularly vocal cadre of Munster fans wanted to accept that every team meant just that: every team. Including Munster.

Not to be too carried away with the emblematic resonance of the Heineken Cup, but it's a nicely structured tournament that forces you to earn your way into the knock-out rounds by beating the other decent teams in your group. Now, for the first time in a long while, Munster didn't earn that right - they came close, but didn't quite get the results they needed. Added to that was the fact that their team was very obviously quite an old one, in rugby terms. So you had this event: an old team, which had earned the right to play in the knockout stages of a cup competition for a number of years in a row by beating the teams they had to play against, didn't quite make it this time.

Some headline writers called it the end of an era, and it's hard to really argue with that. The Munster run of graduating from their group every season was long enough to be classed an era. On the other hand, it really wasn't a huge deal. Like I said, it had happened to every other big team in Europe previously.

[TerenureJim]

'Peppering over the cracks' is a new one to me, Jim - thinking of your lunch already or have you been reading the sambo thread?

Yeah good spot one eye was on my lunch, it should of course be papering.

Anyway I'm just still of an opinion that McGahan and Munster, while unlucky in buy ins of late, just haven't used their success with the team whose core achievers are well past 30 to develop the underage structures sufficently. I'm just of an opinion that perhaps opportunities to blood new players to support and indeed replace some of the ageing warriors was missed over the last two seasons and the late season support shown to Murray, Barnes, Zebo and Jones (yes aware that Jones would have more games but for injury) does not contrast well with the squad development in Leinster in recent years, especially this season.

[the spoofer]

'Peppering over the cracks' is a new one to me, Jim - thinking of your lunch already or have you been reading the sambo thread?

Munster's season was never as bad as it was cracked up to be – almost anybody looking at the league table would be able to see that. I tend to follow Munster quite closely, and post on Munsterfans quite a bit; besides a sizeable portion of cranks and spoofers, there's a good few people who know their onions there.

It would be my opinion that there was a readily observable sense of entitlement within the Munster fan-base, though not amongst all of them, by any means. The team has provided them with a lot of success in the last ten years, and people had gotten used to reaching Heineken Cup finals [four in eight years is a serious achievement]. That led to a lot of new fans, as will happen with any successful sports team. Because the successful period lasted for so long, these 'new' fans became established fans and, having been fans only for a successful period, began to take success a little for granted. Some of our supporter's reaction to Leinster's recent Heineken Cup success has unfortunately reminded me of some Munster 2008 fan comments: "Leinster aren't our rivals. Our rivals are Toulouse etc."

And yet, no matter how often it was presented that Toulouse, Leicester, Wasps and Leinster had all failed to qualify from the HEC group stages in the very recent past, and that every team has to rebuild and/or transition, it didn't seem like a particularly vocal cadre of Munster fans wanted to accept that every team meant just that: every team. Including Munster.

Not to be too carried away with the emblematic resonance of the Heineken Cup, but it's a nicely structured tournament that forces you to earn your way into the knock-out rounds by beating the other decent teams in your group. Now, for the first time in a long while, Munster didn't earn that right - they came close, but didn't quite get the results they needed. Added to that was the fact that their team was very obviously quite an old one, in rugby terms. So you had this event: an old team, which had earned the right to play in the knockout stages of a cup competition for a number of years in a row by beating the teams they had to play against, didn't quite make it this time.

Some headline writers called it the end of an era, and it's hard to really argue with that. The Munster run of graduating from their group every season was long enough to be classed an era. On the other hand, it really wasn't a huge deal. Like I said, it had happened to every other big team in Europe previously.

Heh, outside now!

[hugonaut]

Anyway I'm just still of an opinion that McGahan and Munster, while unlucky in buy ins of late, just haven't used their success with the team whose core achievers are well past 30 to develop the underage structures sufficently. I'm just of an opinion that perhaps opportunities to blood new players to support and indeed replace some of the ageing warriors was missed over the last two seasons and the late season support shown to Murray, Barnes, Zebo and Jones (yes aware that Jones would have more games but for injury) does not contrast well with the squad development in Leinster in recent years, especially this season.

I don't know - I think they've done an alright job. They've been a little hamstrung in certain positions: the most problematic one is obviously where Declan Kidney decided to give two national contracts to Tony Buckley and John Hayes, both of whom were getting plowed in the scrum for the guts of two years. The IRFU wouldn't a] allow them to get a buy-in tighthead and b] wouldn't allow them to play anybody outside those two anyway. That one is directly on Kidney's doorstep.

The other one is Tomás O'Leary at scrum-half, who has had an appalling season. Stringer has a lot of experience but is extremely limited. The obvious call would have been to see the wood for the trees and pick the most talented of the bunch, Conor Murray, but McGahan was either bound by IRFU dictat or intimidated by the level of decorations the others had won - HEC-winners, Grand Slammers etc. Despite some very poor performances from both senior scrumhalves over the course of the season, Murray really only got a shot after the 6 Nations.

The youngsters that McGahan has introduced to the team have hit the ground running, and are going a long way to bringing some zest back to Munster. Zebo looks to be a good replacement for the 33 year old Howlett [when the time comes] and will give Munster a home-grown, dangerous attacking back three for the first time in the professional era.

Murray is already looking like the best scrum-half in Ireland. Mike Sherry looks another guy who could be good enough to play international rugby. Ian Nagle has impressed at times during the season, although I would suggest that he is some way from the physicality required of a top-ranked second row.

Still, over the next couple of years they're going to lose Hayes [38 this year], Horan [34 this year], Flannery [33 this year], Wallace [35 this year], Stringer [34 this year], O'Gara [34], O'Driscoll [33 this year] and Howlett [33 this year] having already lost Quinlan [36], Barry Murphy [28], Tony Buckley [30], Paul Warwick [30] and Ian Dowling [28] at the end of the recently-finished season.

[Dave Cahill]

The IRFU wouldn't a] allow them to get a buy-in tighthead and b] wouldn't allow them to play anybody outside those two anyway. That one is directly on Kidney's doorstep.

Thats not true though, in the last four years Munster have had Pucciarello, Brugnaut and Borlaise, with Botha to arrive next season.

[hugonaut]

The IRFU wouldn't a] allow them to get a buy-in tighthead and b] wouldn't allow them to play anybody outside those two anyway. That one is directly on Kidney's doorstep.

Thats not true though, in the last four years Munster have had Pucciarello, Brugnaut and Borlaise, with Botha to arrive next season.

You're right of course Dave, but surely Pucciarello's signing ante-dates both Hayes' and Buckley's most recent contracts? Puc was with Munster from 05-09, so I'd imagine [and this is pure supposition on my part] that his last contract was a two-year deal signed at the end of the 06-07 season.

I would argue that Brugnaut was never signed as a tighthead [he was rather signed as a sub who could cover both sides] and that Borlase is a project player and while a 'buy-in', isn't for Irish rugby's purposes a Johnny Foreigner. That's my problem though, I didn't write that.

I don't know the timeline of the Botha signing, with regards to Mushy and Hayes. I'd imagine that the IRFU weren't going to resign Hayes anyway, which freed up one a tighthead berth in Munster. I don't know if they knew Mushy was going to leave.

[TerenureJim]

I don't know - I think they've done an alright job. They've been a little hamstrung in certain positions: the most problematic one is obviously where Declan Kidney decided to give two national contracts to Tony Buckley and John Hayes, both of whom were getting plowed in the scrum for the guts of two years. The IRFU wouldn't a] allow them to get a buy-in tighthead and b] wouldn't allow them to play anybody outside those two anyway. That one is directly on Kidney's doorstep.

The other one is Tomás O'Leary at scrum-half, who has had an appalling season. Stringer has a lot of experience but is extremely limited. The obvious call would have been to see the wood for the trees and pick the most talented of the bunch, Conor Murray, but McGahan was either bound by IRFU dictat or intimidated by the level of decorations the others had won - HEC-winners, Grand Slammers etc. Despite some very poor performances from both senior scrumhalves over the course of the season, Murray really only got a shot after the 6 Nations.

The youngsters that McGahan has introduced to the team have hit the ground running, and are going a long way to bringing some zest back to Munster. Zebo looks to be a good replacement for the 33 year old Howlett [when the time comes] and will give Munster a home-grown, dangerous attacking back three for the first time in the professional era.

Murray is already looking like the best scrum-half in Ireland. Mike Sherry looks another guy who could be good enough to play international rugby. Ian Nagle has impressed at times during the season, although I would suggest that he is some way from the physicality required of a top-ranked second row.

Still, over the next couple of years they're going to lose Hayes [38 this year], Horan [34 this year], Flannery [33 this year], Wallace [35 this year], Stringer [34 this year], O'Gara [34], O'Driscoll [33 this year] and Howlett [33 this year] having already lost Quinlan [36], Barry Murphy [28], Tony Buckley [30], Paul Warwick [30] and Ian Dowling [28] at the end of the recently-finished season.

Surely you could add in DOC and POC to retire in the post RWC 2011 era, I don't see either hanging around that many more seasons. Maybe POC until Lions in 2013 I guess. Anyways I just think that when you compare and contrast McGahan taking over the established team that Kidney put together and Joe taking over Cheika's established team; Joe has really made the team his own in a very short time whereas McGahan has taken an age to blood new players and for a professional set up that needs sucession planning I just don't think it's good enough and I for one would love to see somebody like Conor O'Shea step in down south for the good of the game there and nationally I think he'd be superb.

[hugonaut]

Surely you could add in DOC and POC to retire in the post RWC 2011 era, I don't see either hanging around that many more seasons. Maybe POC until Lions in 2013 I guess. Anyways I just think that when you compare and contrast McGahan taking over the established team that Kidney put together and Joe taking over Cheika's established team; Joe has really made the team his own in a very short time whereas McGahan has taken an age to blood new players and for a professional set up that needs sucession planning I just don't think it's good enough and I for one would love to see somebody like Conor O'Shea step in down south for the good of the game there and nationally I think he'd be superb.

O'Callaghan was given a three-year contract in November 2010 [source: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/20954.php] which will see him centrally contracted until November 2013. Just an absolutely f*cking bonkers contract from my point of view, but there you go.

Paul O'Connell – if he can stay healthy there's nothing stopping him from playing until he's 35 or 36.

[Turnip Boy]

The IRFU wouldn't a] allow them to get a buy-in tighthead and b] wouldn't allow them to play anybody outside those two anyway. That one is directly on Kidney's doorstep.

Thats not true though, in the last four years Munster have had Pucciarello, Brugnaut and Borlaise, with Botha to arrive next season.

And Botha will be the first of those named to be allowed to be picked as first choice. Central contracted props meant that Freddie, Bruno and Borlaise were nothing but back ups same as McIllwam before them.

[TrapperChamonix]

'Peppering over the cracks' is a new one to me, Jim - thinking of your lunch already or have you been reading the sambo thread?

Munster's season was never as bad as it was cracked up to be – almost anybody looking at the league table would be able to see that. I tend to follow Munster quite closely, and post on Munsterfans quite a bit; besides a sizeable portion of cranks and spoofers, there's a good few people who know their onions there.
.......................................................................................
And yet, no matter how often it was presented that Toulouse, Leicester, Wasps and Leinster had all failed to qualify from the HEC group stages in the very recent past, and that every team has to rebuild and/or transition, it didn't seem like a particularly vocal cadre of Munster fans wanted to accept that every team meant just that: every team. Including Munster.

Agreed, there is a need to bring perspective to this. Even in a year that is being described as a disaster for Munster, they still out performed both Ospreys and Cardiff, both on and off the field.

[Dave Cahill]

The IRFU wouldn't a] allow them to get a buy-in tighthead and b] wouldn't allow them to play anybody outside those two anyway. That one is directly on Kidney's doorstep.

Thats not true though, in the last four years Munster have had Pucciarello, Brugnaut and Borlaise, with Botha to arrive next season.

And Botha will be the first of those named to be allowed to be picked as first choice. Central contracted props meant that Freddie, Bruno and Borlaise were nothing but back ups same as McIllwam before them.

An excuse used to explain unsuccessful signings. The point was that the IRFU wouldn't 'allow them to get a buy in tighthead' - there has been a number of them.

[JoseFantastique]

An excuse used to explain unsuccessful signings. The point was that the IRFU wouldn't 'allow them to get a buy in tighthead' - there has been a number of them.

Two things, we weren't allowed sign a top level tighthead and secondly, we weren't allowed play NIQ props ahead of Horan and Hayes/Buckley if they were fit.

Hence you've Horan continually ahead of Puc and Brugnaut goes from squad player to playing in most of Racing Metro's games. This is directly from Puc in the Sunday Times so I don't see why you're even debating it.