IRFU Finances

[Oldschoolsocks]

Most money per head is in D4.

Its really not. Dublin 4 is an area of massive income inequality and inequality of opportunity. It has significant unemployment, deprivation and issues with addiction and addiction related criminality. I don't want to be rude or offensive, but you haven''t a clue what you're talking about and are resorting to sterotype and trope.

But again my point is not aimed at people living there. Avolon is an aviation company there who are at 200 tickets a game secured from clubs. Based in D4. Maybe people just see Munster in username and stereotype too.
As I said I am speaking on facts not presumptions and purposely said at start it wasn't a province thing.
Funny thing is noone has actually stayed where I am wrong

Eh, I’ve no dog in this fight but I’m pretty sure the Spoofer and DC have pretty much told you where you’re wrong?

[MunsterDan]

Its really not. Dublin 4 is an area of massive income inequality and inequality of opportunity. It has significant unemployment, deprivation and issues with addiction and addiction related criminality. I don't want to be rude or offensive, but you haven''t a clue what you're talking about and are resorting to sterotype and trope.

But again my point is not aimed at people living there. Avolon is an aviation company there who are at 200 tickets a game secured from clubs. Based in D4. Maybe people just see Munster in username and stereotype too.
As I said I am speaking on facts not presumptions and purposely said at start it wasn't a province thing.
Funny thing is noone has actually stayed where I am wrong

Eh, I’ve no dog in this fight but I’m pretty sure the Spoofer and DC have pretty much told you where you’re wrong?

But they haven't. Just on facts. Alot of clubs are selling back to Corporate as I said. And where alot are based are in D4 area.
Dave made a point on D4 has issues and inequality. And that is fair my point may have been taken up wrong I am saying it with regard to Corporate side taken in. Not that every household there is multi millionaires

[The Doc]

But again my point is not aimed at people living there. Avolon is an aviation company there who are at 200 tickets a game secured from clubs. Based in D4. Maybe people just see Munster in username and stereotype too.
As I said I am speaking on facts not presumptions and purposely said at start it wasn't a province thing.
Funny thing is noone has actually stayed where I am wrong

Eh, I’ve no dog in this fight but I’m pretty sure the Spoofer and DC have pretty much told you where you’re wrong?

But they haven't. Just on facts. Alot of clubs are selling back to Corporate as I said. And where alot are based are in D4 area.
Dave made a point on D4 has issues and inequality. And that is fair my point may have been taken up wrong I am saying it with regard to Corporate side taken in. Not that every household there is multi millionaires

Don't really want to get into semantics but where an office building is based has nothing to do with who's going to the game.

"MunsterDan Solicitors" based in Shelbourne Rd might buy a load of tickets but the company isn't going to the game. The clients are from all over Ireland. And the problem is that the people going probably don't really care about the game... They're there for the lunch and drinks and a bit of a laff.

And it's just as likely that the firm is buying it's package from any club in the country. I know at least one of the D4 firms who buy the packages from a limerick club... There's many senior people in these firms that have historical connections from elsewhere.



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[MunsterDan]

Eh, I’ve no dog in this fight but I’m pretty sure the Spoofer and DC have pretty much told you where you’re wrong?

But they haven't. Just on facts. Alot of clubs are selling back to Corporate as I said. And where alot are based are in D4 area.
Dave made a point on D4 has issues and inequality. And that is fair my point may have been taken up wrong I am saying it with regard to Corporate side taken in. Not that every household there is multi millionaires

Don't really want to get into semantics but where an office building is based has nothing to do with who's going to the game.

"MunsterDan Solicitors" based in Shelbourne Rd might buy a load of tickets but the company isn't going to the game. The clients are from all over Ireland. And the problem is that the people going probably don't really care about the game... They're there for the lunch and drinks and a bit of a laff.

And it's just as likely that the firm is buying it's package from any club in the country. I know at least one of the D4 firms who buy the packages from a limerick club... There's many senior people in these firms that have historical connections from elsewhere.



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Correct. My point is all those are what the IRFU are targeting. And yes I can bet more of those tickets are coming from Munster and Ulster than Dublin.

And yes the clients are from all over and beyond. The point is that is the target market now though the Corporate man who is going to network as opposed to be passionately in to team Ireland.

[blockhead]

But they haven't. Just on facts. Alot of clubs are selling back to Corporate as I said. And where alot are based are in D4 area.
Dave made a point on D4 has issues and inequality. And that is fair my point may have been taken up wrong I am saying it with regard to Corporate side taken in. Not that every household there is multi millionaires

Don't really want to get into semantics but where an office building is based has nothing to do with who's going to the game.

"MunsterDan Solicitors" based in Shelbourne Rd might buy a load of tickets but the company isn't going to the game. The clients are from all over Ireland. And the problem is that the people going probably don't really care about the game... They're there for the lunch and drinks and a bit of a laff.

And it's just as likely that the firm is buying it's package from any club in the country. I know at least one of the D4 firms who buy the packages from a limerick club... There's many senior people in these firms that have historical connections from elsewhere.



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Correct. My point is all those are what the IRFU are targeting. And yes I can bet more of those tickets are coming from Munster and Ulster than Dublin.

And yes the clients are from all over and beyond. The point is that is the target market now though the Corporate man who is going to network as opposed to be passionately in to team Ireland.

Your "Point" is changing all the time, but nevermind.
The national team generates 80% of IRFU income.
The IRFU is giving massive interest free loans to Munster, ticket sales from internationals is how they can do that.

[ronk]

The net change due to the RWC was €12.1m.

The provinces together brought in €9 (with exclusions), or 3 times as much in a 4 year cycle.

It's strange how there's so much focus on a €300k payment on a loan (in this context). It doesn't do a lot to move the dial. It's dwarfed by other figures. It's a bigger proportion of a provinces budget, sure.

Selling tickets through clubs isn't relevant for provincial pissing contests, either. The money helps clubs, not the pro teams.

I'd be more of the view that the IRFU should sell the corporate tickets directly, rather than tolerate clubs competing with them for commercial customers and then increase funding for clubs to balance things out. Put the pros in charge of what they're good at and leave the club officals worry about running the clubs rather than corporate entertainment.Then have an allocation for members only.

[naraic]

The net change due to the RWC was €12.1m.

The provinces together brought in €9 (with exclusions), or 3 times as much in a 4 year cycle.

That's what the province brings in that's kept as union income as opposed to provincial income.

AFAIK that's tv money, prize money and half of the provinces share of knockout gate receipts.

I'd be more of the view that the IRFU should sell the corporate tickets directly, rather than tolerate clubs competing with them for commercial customers and then increase funding for clubs to balance things out. Put the pros in charge of what they're good at and leave the club officals worry about running the clubs rather than corporate entertainment.Then have an allocation for members only.

Clubs often not sell to corporates at face value. It might technically be a face value sale but it's bundled with a 200 lunch or something else. The corporate won't attend the lunch and the club will pocket the money.

If we remove corporate releases to clubs we will probabaly have to reimagine the way clubs get granted money which would probabaly be a good thing.

[MunsterDan]

Don't really want to get into semantics but where an office building is based has nothing to do with who's going to the game.

"MunsterDan Solicitors" based in Shelbourne Rd might buy a load of tickets but the company isn't going to the game. The clients are from all over Ireland. And the problem is that the people going probably don't really care about the game... They're there for the lunch and drinks and a bit of a laff.

And it's just as likely that the firm is buying it's package from any club in the country. I know at least one of the D4 firms who buy the packages from a limerick club... There's many senior people in these firms that have historical connections from elsewhere.



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Correct. My point is all those are what the IRFU are targeting. And yes I can bet more of those tickets are coming from Munster and Ulster than Dublin.

And yes the clients are from all over and beyond. The point is that is the target market now though the Corporate man who is going to network as opposed to be passionately in to team Ireland.

Your "Point" is changing all the time, but nevermind.
The national team generates 80% of IRFU income.
The IRFU is giving massive interest free loans to Munster, ticket sales from internationals is how they can do that.

No the point is solid and factual. Physically all activity for team Ireland financially is based around D4 premises.

The IRFU own Munster. In same way Leinster have got help with RDS and Lansdowne rents. You can spin it many ways. The loan is investment in a fixed asset in Cork and Limerick that IRFU own so it a loan but in overall accounts it an asset. Same way you could spin central contracts etc give help to provinces.
But as I said interpretation is everything.

[FtD]

Correct. My point is all those are what the IRFU are targeting. And yes I can bet more of those tickets are coming from Munster and Ulster than Dublin.

And yes the clients are from all over and beyond. The point is that is the target market now though the Corporate man who is going to network as opposed to be passionately in to team Ireland.

Your "Point" is changing all the time, but nevermind.
The national team generates 80% of IRFU income.
The IRFU is giving massive interest free loans to Munster, ticket sales from internationals is how they can do that.

No the point is solid and factual. Physically all activity for team Ireland financially is based around D4 premises.

The IRFU own Munster. In same way Leinster have got help with RDS and Lansdowne rents. You can spin it many ways. The loan is investment in a fixed asset in Cork and Limerick that IRFU own so it a loan but in overall accounts it an asset. Same way you could spin central contracts etc give help to provinces.
But as I said interpretation is everything.

Central contracts don't "give help" to the provinces - they compensate the provinces for developing players to play for the Irish national team, which helps fund the whole show.

It's the same tedious argument about Leinster having an NIQ prop - Leinster provide the bulk of the players to the Irish team. For all the whining and teeth gnashing that went on about an EI tour which largely took peripheral players out of the provinces at the beginning of the season, Leinster would have far more reason to be aggrieved about a fourth Autumn International crammed in the week before the first round of European fixtures, and which will likely see us with a rested/rotated side in Europe.

The central contracts are a mitigant for that to a certain extent.

The disparity between Leinster and the other provinces today isn't driven by recent developments and guys like Dan Sheehan, JGP or Caelan Doris being upgraded to central contracts, it was how badly Munster and Ulster in particular dropped the ball around 6-10 years ago when both were focused on short term success and signing high profile NIQs and journeyman Saffers, to the absolute detriment of their player production pathways. You reap what you sow in this game - and the roots of the current central contract situation comes from that time period, not the last 2-3 years.

[Flash Gordon]

6 nations tickets are getting a bit much.

Cat 1 tickets are € 168.50, Cat 2 € 157.50, and Cat 3 € 131.50.

Absolutely ridiculous. The national team is realistically now for the rich and the corporates. I watched a premier league soccer game last season for 35 quid.

Is that all they gave you?

Yeah that's a fair shout, particularly given the team I support....

[Flash Gordon]

Correct. My point is all those are what the IRFU are targeting. And yes I can bet more of those tickets are coming from Munster and Ulster than Dublin.

And yes the clients are from all over and beyond. The point is that is the target market now though the Corporate man who is going to network as opposed to be passionately in to team Ireland.

Your "Point" is changing all the time, but nevermind.
The national team generates 80% of IRFU income.
The IRFU is giving massive interest free loans to Munster, ticket sales from internationals is how they can do that.

No the point is solid and factual. Physically all activity for team Ireland financially is based around D4 premises.

The IRFU own Munster. In same way Leinster have got help with RDS and Lansdowne rents. You can spin it many ways. The loan is investment in a fixed asset in Cork and Limerick that IRFU own so it a loan but in overall accounts it an asset. Same way you could spin central contracts etc give help to provinces.
But as I said interpretation is everything.

Central contracts is not free money! You have to earn it and it helps clubs maintain squads to cover the fact that 15-20 players are in the Ireland squad. Leinster play more than than 60 players a season to cover the Ireland lads, someone has to pay for the cover.

The VERY significant disadvantage is that our players are flogged for Ireland. We've got a massive away fixture in the European Cup next weekend and there are players coming off 4 weeks of intensive test rugby tired, carry knocks or injured. Same will happen during the 6 nations before we get to the business end of the Champions Cup.

The Irish system prioritises Ireland and the primary purpose of the provinces is to provide players for Ireland, it's not right that one province carries so much of the burden on a number of levels. It's a lot to ask of one province as a i said but also ideally you want the national team to actually represent the entire country and be comprised of players from all provinces.

What's also not right is this ridiculous narrative that Leinster are being favoured and the central contracts should be spread evenly. This particularly so when 2 provinces have had stadia paid for, one by the IRFU.

[ronk]

Central contracts are not designed in any way to favour or even up provinces. They are a way to support keeping the most stragically important Irish players playing in Ireland.

It would be problematic if provinces were disadvantaged by having central contracts. They should be good news to encourage provinces to continue producing players.

If you don't like how central contracts are working for you, develop more elite players. I

We're not stopping Munster from producing those players. We're stopping some of their players from getting caps which limits them from developing further. But they just need to get better at developing players.

Holding back one province because they're doing better than another is just not something that should be part of the conversation. The one exception to that is Connacht keeping another province out of the Investec Cup. That would be a net loss for the IRFU.

[leinsterforever]

Central contracts are not designed in any way to favour or even up provinces. They are a way to support keeping the most stragically important Irish players playing in Ireland.

It would be problematic if provinces were disadvantaged by having central contracts. They should be good news to encourage provinces to continue producing players.

If you don't like how central contracts are working for you, develop more elite players. I

We're not stopping Munster from producing those players. We're stopping some of their players from getting caps which limits them from developing further. But they just need to get better at developing players.

Holding back one province because they're doing better than another is just not something that should be part of the conversation. The one exception to that is Connacht keeping another province out of the Investec Cup. That would be a net loss for the IRFU.

I don't think there's any way the IRFU could swing that now though, is there? If Connacht qualify for the Invo by dint of where they finish in the URC table I don't think the Union could nominate a province who finished outside the qualifying spots in their place. The latter province wouldn't have qualified.

Ah, reading again now I realise you probably mean it's not in the IRFU's financial interest to let Connacht get too good because that slightly negatively affects the other provinces chances of finishing in the URC top 8 and could mean lower European Cup gate takings overall.

[ronk]

Yes. I think the support that the IRFU gives Connacht (and other provinces) is calibrated to avoid dumping another province out of the Investec Cup.

The financial model that paid for the number of provinces to stay at 4 depended as much on protecting the income streams of the other 3 as about making 1 sustainable.

To put it one way: Dexcom Stadium takes 6k. So 54k for URC season. 66k including 2 Investec Cup games. Connacht's away interpros are 26.5k +18.5k + 18k = 62k. The 3 extra interpros are financially comparable to the whole of Connacht's gate.

[blockhead]

Yes. I think the support that the IRFU gives Connacht (and other provinces) is calibrated to avoid dumping another province out of the Investec Cup.

The financial model that paid for the number of provinces to stay at 4 depended as much on protecting the income streams of the other 3 as about making 1 sustainable.

To put it one way: Dexcom Stadium takes 6k. So 54k for URC season. 66k including 2 Investec Cup games. Connacht's away interpros are 26.5k +18.5k + 18k = 62k. The 3 extra interpros are financially comparable to the whole of Connacht's gate.

Going to be a 12k stadium soon enough.

[blockhead]

From the IT

South African Rugby Union admits private equity deal is key to survival
SA Rugby propose to loosen control of its commercial rights through a deal with Seattle-based Ackerley Sports Group
Wed Dec 04 2024 - 17:01

The South African Rugby Union (SA Rugby) has told politicians it faces the risk of collapse if it does not boost revenue.
“We don’t have a reserve fund, we’re a break-even organisation,” said SA Rugby president Mark Alexander in defence of a proposal to loosen control of its commercial rights through a deal with Seattle-based Ackerley Sports Group LLC.
If the organisation has to endure another crisis similar to that experienced during the coronavirus pandemic then “we’ll have to close our doors” he said in a presentation to the South Africa parliament’s sports committee in Cape Town on Wednesday.
The proposed deal with Ackerley, which will be voted on this week, has caused a storm of controversy and a string of front-page headlines. The loosening of local control over a team whose success as back-to-back World Cup winners and multiracial make-up has made the one-time icon of white supremacy under apartheid into a symbol of transformation has stoked concern.
The country’s sports minister and the unions that run some of its biggest rugby teams, which are linked to a number of the country’s richest men, queried the benefits of the deal and the lack of South African participation.
SA Rugby, which has barely turned a profit for over a decade despite revenue climbing threefold, plans to sell a 20 per cent stake in a newly-created commercial-rights company for $75 million (€71.5 million). Ackerley would take three of the seven voting board seats in the company as well as have the right to appoint a chairman, effectively controlling the Springbok rugby brand’s rights, SA Rugby has said previously.
That would follow a trend among national federations of successful rugby teams, most notably New Zealand’s All Blacks, to raise funds from private equity. Other national rugby bodies are also struggling with their finances, with the Telegraph last month reporting that England’s organisation is set to post a record annual loss of about £40 million (€48.35 million).
The vote was postponed from October after a request from sports minister Gayton McKenzie that the government be briefed.
Rugby unions that run clubs linked to South Africa’s richest man, Johann Rupert, as well as Patrice Motsepe, the country’s only black billionaire, and pharmaceutical tycoon Stephen Saad, are among seven of SA Rugby’s 14 member associations that signed a letter in October opposing the deal.
The unions raised concerns about the fee structure and governance aspects of the deal as well as potential changes to SA Rugby’s commercialisation and revenue mechanisms, a copy of the letter published by Johannesburg-based Business Day showed. Local newspapers have reported some of them may come up with an alternative proposal.
SA Rugby generates about 90 per cent of its revenue from the Springboks brand and franchise competitions, which it uses to fund the development of young players and support the sport nationwide, its executives, including Alexander, told lawmakers. Almost half of the national team’s matches are played overseas and South Africa’s weak currency puts it at a disadvantage when competing against rivals and makes it difficult to retain top players that are “lured by lucrative contracts abroad,” SA Rugby said in the presentation.
The deal with Ackerley could see the creation of a fund to “protect” the sport, according to chief executive officer Rian Oberholzer.
The Springboks won the last two World Cups and secured the southern hemisphere’s Rugby Championship in September. Despite the success, which also includes World Cup victories in 1995 and 2007, it lags behind the commercial income of its largest rivals.
SA Rugby generates $30 million (€28.5 million) in annual revenue through 48 partnership deals, compared with about $75 million (€71.5 million) generated by the All Blacks through fewer deals. SA Rugby is targeting sponsorship revenue of 800 million rand (€42 million) in 2027, about double last year’s level.
While the world’s premier rugby-playing nations include some of the world’s richest countries, the buying power of poorer South Africans limits income. A standard ticket to a Springboks vs Ireland match in Dublin in 2023 cost about €140 while the price for the match in South Africa where the Springboks clinched the Rugby Championship this year against Argentina was 750 rand (€40).
SA Rugby has tried to clinch a private equity deal since 2018 and Oberholzer said the fees associated with the proposal, a point of contention with SA Rugby’s member unions, have been negotiated down by almost 50 per cent.
“We are comfortable that it is fair and equitable in the light of similar transactions,” he said. – Bloomberg

SA Rugby generates $30 million (€28.5 million) in annual revenue-wow that is not a lot at all. Although not surprising when you consider the value of the Rand I suppose.
€40 a ticket eh, remember those days