IRFU decision on Trans players

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Oldschool
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IRFU decision on Trans players

Post by Oldschool »

The IRFU are now under attack for doing the correct thing as opposed to the PC thing to do regarding the transgender issue.
Health and Safety is the issue, not equality.
The fact that no-one on this board has chosen to express an opinion is a sure sign that people have been cowed into silence.
Interesting thing is that everyone seems to have run for cover.

Maybe they're all too busy enjoying the sun.
Don't forget to apply the sun oil, that's a Health and Safety issue too.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by dropkick »

Oldschool wrote: August 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm The IRFU are now under attack for doing the correct thing as opposed to the PC thing to do regarding the transgender issue.
Health and Safety is the issue, not equality.
The fact that no-one on this board has chosen to express an opinion is a sure sign that people have been cowed into silence.
Interesting thing is that everyone seems to have run for cover.

Maybe they're all too busy enjoying the sun.
Don't forget to apply the sun oil, that's a Health and Safety issue too.
They're under attack but most people agree with them. They just need to weather the storm. Good timing to do it before the season starts and after pride months.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by riocard911 »

Oldschool wrote: August 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm The IRFU are now under attack for doing the correct thing as opposed to the PC thing to do regarding the transgender issue.
Health and Safety is the issue, not equality.
The fact that no-one on this board has chosen to express an opinion is a sure sign that people have been cowed into silence.
Interesting thing is that everyone seems to have run for cover.

Maybe they're all too busy enjoying the sun.
Don't forget to apply the sun oil, that's a Health and Safety issue too.
I think the second wave feminists like Germaine Greer, and others such as Martina Navratilova, Graham Linehan, J. K. Rowling and Paul Howard were right all along. I think the RFU and the IRFU along with the international swimming association have made the correct decisions. I too am for inclusivity and against discrimination, but not at the cost of woman and girls losing the societal spaces generations of feminists fought for. In light of reforms in Scandinavia as well as the decision to close the Tavistock Clinic in London on foot of the Cass report the whole issue of "transitioning" children and teenagers by means of life-altering surgery and medication is up for reappraisal. This can only be a good thing, IMO.
Last edited by riocard911 on August 11th, 2022, 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by riocard911 »

Oldschool wrote: August 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm The IRFU are now under attack for doing the correct thing as opposed to the PC thing to do regarding the transgender issue.
Health and Safety is the issue, not equality.
The fact that no-one on this board has chosen to express an opinion is a sure sign that people have been cowed into silence.
Interesting thing is that everyone seems to have run for cover.

Maybe they're all too busy enjoying the sun.
Don't forget to apply the sun oil, that's a Health and Safety issue too.
I think the second wave feminists like Germaine Greer, and others such as Martina Navratilova, Graham Linehan, J. K. Rowling and Paul Howard were right all along. I think the RFU and the IRFU along with the international swimming association have made the correct decisions. I too am for inclusivity and against discrimination, but not at the cost of woman and girls losing the societal spaces generations of feminists fought for. In light of reforms in Scandinavia as well as the decision to close the Tavistock Clinic in London on foot of the Cass report the whole issue of "transitioning" children and teenagers by means of life-altering surgery and medication is up for reappraisal. This can only be a good thing, IMO.
Last edited by riocard911 on August 11th, 2022, 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by riocard911 »

I managed to submit the same post twice. Apologies.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

I think yiz are being dragged into the latest drama.
Here are the facts:

Trans people exist.

Whether trans women should compete in contact sports with cis women is a different issue.

Trans women sharing a rugby pitch and sharing a bathroom are two entirely separate issues.

Germaine Greer, Graham Linehan and JK Rowling are exactly as qualified to talk about this as my mate Jim down the pub and their arguments are just as convincing.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Laighin Break »

I think it's a shame to marginalise trans women even further. I can see the logic for putting in restrictions/criteria as has been done in other sports but I don't think it's a black and white issue that should be solved with a blanket ban.
Their statement mentioned that this ruling affects two registered players - it's not exactly the massive issue that some people seem to think. I genuinely feel sorry for those two players and their team mates. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by ronk »

This is a conversation that some people are deliberately avoiding because of the way it could be used to marginalize others.

Shouldn't really be taking over threads.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

ronk wrote: August 12th, 2022, 8:15 am This is a conversation that some people are deliberately avoiding because of the way it could be used to marginalize others.

Shouldn't really be taking over threads.
I agree, i just don’t think any oxygen needs to be given to the “I identify as an attack helicopter” crowd. They are not thinking seriously about the issue…
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by riocard911 »

Dr. Hillary Cass is one of Britain's most eminent paediatrician and is certainly not part of the "I identify as a helicopter crowd". Her review of the treatment given to teenagers at the Tavistock Clinic and her criticism thereof call for a serious consideration of the whole trans issue and why, in particular, the number of young girls wanting to transition has exploded in recent years.

I only posted on this matter cos an earlier poster referred to it as a taboo subject - I'm paraphrasing perhaps. Dr. Cass in her review specifically stared that the staff in Tavistock were under "ideological pressure". I'm not afraid to state my own opinion, as I think this whole matter, including the recent IRFU decision to restrict women's and girls over 12's rugby to persons born female, is a serious one worthy of debate, from which we all can only learn.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

You're correct riocard not everyone who has an opinion on the matter is one of the “attack helicopter” crowd.

I dont know Dr. Hillary Cass, but it sounds like she is qualified to talk on this issue.

The others you mentioned, not so much…

This is a complex issue and deserves its own thread imho.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by riocard911 »

Oldschoolsocks wrote: August 12th, 2022, 2:11 pm You're correct riocard not everyone who has an opinion on the matter is one of the “attack helicopter” crowd.

I dont know Dr. Hillary Cass, but it sounds like she is qualified to talk on this issue.

The others you mentioned, not so much…

This is a complex issue and deserves its own thread imho.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by blockhead »

dropkick wrote: August 11th, 2022, 10:31 pm
Oldschool wrote: August 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm The IRFU are now under attack for doing the correct thing as opposed to the PC thing to do regarding the transgender issue.
Health and Safety is the issue, not equality.
The fact that no-one on this board has chosen to express an opinion is a sure sign that people have been cowed into silence.
Interesting thing is that everyone seems to have run for cover.

Maybe they're all too busy enjoying the sun.
Don't forget to apply the sun oil, that's a Health and Safety issue too.
They're under attack but most people agree with them. They just need to weather the storm. Good timing to do it before the season starts and after pride months.
Good news for Women and the Women's game.
Good to see common sense prevail.
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Re: IRFU decision on Trans players

Post by riocard911 »

The following thread elucidates the scientific thinking behind the IRFU decision:

https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/statu ... Yd10g&s=19
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by the spoofer »

Laighin Break wrote: August 12th, 2022, 7:47 am I think it's a shame to marginalise trans women even further. I can see the logic for putting in restrictions/criteria as has been done in other sports but I don't think it's a black and white issue that should be solved with a blanket ban.
Their statement mentioned that this ruling affects two registered players - it's not exactly the massive issue that some people seem to think. I genuinely feel sorry for those two players and their team mates. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the matter.
I disagree with you fundamentally. I have never met a woman who was within a street of me in terms of physical power when I was playing J1 rugby. It is absolutely moronic to think that trans women should play against women. RTE interviewed a trans women who plays in the UK about how hurt she is and that she never felt that she was more powerful than non trans. It was only at the end that it was mentioned that she is 54 and only took up rugby 4 years ago!
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Dave Cahill »

the spoofer wrote: August 14th, 2022, 5:16 pm
Laighin Break wrote: August 12th, 2022, 7:47 am I think it's a shame to marginalise trans women even further. I can see the logic for putting in restrictions/criteria as has been done in other sports but I don't think it's a black and white issue that should be solved with a blanket ban.
Their statement mentioned that this ruling affects two registered players - it's not exactly the massive issue that some people seem to think. I genuinely feel sorry for those two players and their team mates. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the matter.
I disagree with you fundamentally. I have never met a woman who was within a street of me in terms of physical power when I was playing J1 rugby. It is absolutely moronic to think that trans women should play against women. RTE interviewed a trans women who plays in the UK about how hurt she is and that she never felt that she was more powerful than non trans. It was only at the end that it was mentioned that she is 54 and only took up rugby 4 years ago!
I'm not entirely sure what LB said that you're disagreeing with.

Of course it's a shame to marginalise a sector of our society - even if it's the right decision made for the right reasons, it's still unfortunate that a sport that trumpets inclusivity and diversity has to make it. And it isn't a black and white issue, that's why World Rugby stresses that these are the current guidelines and are subject to ongoing evaluation as new evidence is published and have also committed to commissioning and funding further study into the issue. It should be pointed out that it isn't a blanket ban - women who transitioned before the onset of male puberty can still play women's rugby. I too feel sorry for the two women involved - the whole situation is a cr@p sandwich with a side of sh!t.

Personally (and I'd say I'm in a huge minority on this), I would have removed cisgender classifications from the sport and classified it on the basis of whether a player has or hasn't undergone androgen effected puberty.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Morf »

Dave Cahill wrote: August 14th, 2022, 6:13 pm Personally (and I'd say I'm in a huge minority on this), I would have removed cisgender classifications from the sport and classified it on the basis of whether a player has or hasn't undergone androgen effected puberty.
Whenever redefinition of terms comes up 'difficult cases make bad law' comes to mind.
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Laighin Break »

the spoofer wrote: August 14th, 2022, 5:16 pm
Laighin Break wrote: August 12th, 2022, 7:47 am I think it's a shame to marginalise trans women even further. I can see the logic for putting in restrictions/criteria as has been done in other sports but I don't think it's a black and white issue that should be solved with a blanket ban.
Their statement mentioned that this ruling affects two registered players - it's not exactly the massive issue that some people seem to think. I genuinely feel sorry for those two players and their team mates. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the matter.
I disagree with you fundamentally. I have never met a woman who was within a street of me in terms of physical power when I was playing J1 rugby. It is absolutely moronic to think that trans women should play against women. RTE interviewed a trans women who plays in the UK about how hurt she is and that she never felt that she was more powerful than non trans. It was only at the end that it was mentioned that she is 54 and only took up rugby 4 years ago!
I'm not quite sure what your point is. Your personal anecdote doesn't prove or disprove anything. I'm sure there are other men out there who have met plenty of women more powerful than them, and even more so if they took testosterone reducing medication.
I see it as not a black and white issue - I don't think all trans women should be banned from playing, but I can see cases where there should restrictions put in place. And I really don't see what's moronic about that
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Re: Steve Thompson not very well at all

Post by Keith »

Laighin Break wrote: August 17th, 2022, 2:40 pm
the spoofer wrote: August 14th, 2022, 5:16 pm
Laighin Break wrote: August 12th, 2022, 7:47 am I think it's a shame to marginalise trans women even further. I can see the logic for putting in restrictions/criteria as has been done in other sports but I don't think it's a black and white issue that should be solved with a blanket ban.
Their statement mentioned that this ruling affects two registered players - it's not exactly the massive issue that some people seem to think. I genuinely feel sorry for those two players and their team mates. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the matter.
I disagree with you fundamentally. I have never met a woman who was within a street of me in terms of physical power when I was playing J1 rugby. It is absolutely moronic to think that trans women should play against women. RTE interviewed a trans women who plays in the UK about how hurt she is and that she never felt that she was more powerful than non trans. It was only at the end that it was mentioned that she is 54 and only took up rugby 4 years ago!
I'm not quite sure what your point is. Your personal anecdote doesn't prove or disprove anything. I'm sure there are other men out there who have met plenty of women more powerful than them, and even more so if they took testosterone reducing medication.
I see it as not a black and white issue - I don't think all trans women should be banned from playing, but I can see cases where there should restrictions put in place. And I really don't see what's moronic about that
You do realise that taking testosterone reducing medication doesn't just magically make you weak enough to compete fairly with women?
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Re: IRFU decision on Trans players

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

It’s a complex issue
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