Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

[Twist]

That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.

agreed. That was the one they should have gone to the corner.
Has anyone re-watched Ala’alatoa jackel on 71 mins? Barnes pinged Moloney for not rolling. He lands near the ball and moves straight away. Huge call.

Yeah it was a bad call but then the neck roll call was very dubious. There was a much more obvious neck roll in the final few minutes but understand why they don't get pinged.

Just out of interest, did anyone else think the final pass to Rhule for his try was forward?

I'd love to help you, but can't bear to watch even a minute of that game back

[Dexter]

No team gets to 6 European finals and wins them all, it's virtually impossible. You need things to go right for you during the competition and on the day of the final too. I haven't rewatched the game but it sounds like we got a couple of very harsh/incorrect calls and missed calls. If even one of those goes the other way Leinster win the game and the performance is forgotten. Again, you play in 6 finals, you get a few where you fall on the wrong side of poor refereeing decisions, it's just inevitable. I thought similar in Newcastle.
Of course it wasn't helpful that we didn't actually play very well either but combinations of bad bounces, dodgy calls, small handling errors etc all compound eachother and make things much worse than any of them in isolation. Sometimes you just need to keep mistakes to a minimum - and we get a lot of dour finals as a result.

[Blueberry]

That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.

agreed. That was the one they should have gone to the corner.
Has anyone re-watched Ala’alatoa jackel on 71 mins? Barnes pinged Moloney for not rolling. He lands near the ball and moves straight away. Huge call.

Yeah it was a bad call but then the neck roll call was very dubious. There was a much more obvious neck roll in the final few minutes but understand why they don't get pinged.

Just out of interest, did anyone else think the final pass to Rhule for his try was forward?

Myself and my son both thought it was forward on the day (from our angle....) and were hollering accordingly but on watch back it looked flat so looks fine.

[curates_egg]

That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.

agreed. That was the one they should have gone to the corner.
Has anyone re-watched Ala’alatoa jackel on 71 mins? Barnes pinged Moloney for not rolling. He lands near the ball and moves straight away. Huge call.

Yeah it was a bad call but then the neck roll call was very dubious. There was a much more obvious neck roll in the final few minutes but understand why they don't get pinged.

Just out of interest, did anyone else think the final pass to Rhule for his try was forward?

I thought it was a cracking pass and not in any way forward.

Think the TMO was not used on a few other occasions where he could have been (a few neck rolls missed). But, by and large, the refereeing calls were balanced. Yes, a couple of the penalties in the final 5 minutes could have been reversed, but we also got some 50:50 ones.
The difference is what we did with our chances unfortunately.

[OTT]

I thought Skelton was handled with kid gloves by Barnes.

Here is just his first half roaming.

In the first minute when we were on penalty advantage from the lineout maul up the left hand side of the pitch Skelton absolutely clatters into the back of Ryan who had broken off the maul then in the next phase of play Ryan comes in to the ruck and drives into Skelton and Skelton grabs him by the scrum cap and claws at his face driving him into the ground. Literally all in the first minute. Both foul play, both cheap shots.

In the 7th minute there was a Leinster penalty for advantage under their posts and something happened where Kelleher and Lowe reacted to something but we never got to see it (surprise surprise) we just heard the TMO saying No 5 Will Skelton did a cheap shot, Barnes goes over and puts him under his wing and goes Will it’s not a card but you are falling down on players on the ground (which he did all match) and then you did something to the scrumhalf.

14.58 on the match clock they are attacking in our 22, they skip Skelton he looks for Ryan who is coming up in the line and puts his foot out and trips him. Honest to god, go have a look. Nothing picked up by the TMO.

23 minutes. We do brilliantly and Henshaw looks like he has held their man up for a maul turnover with the cavalry of Porter and Ryan, Skelton absolutely flys in to the side of it and nails Ryan in the back of the head. Barnes says he man got to ground and we play on. Another bit of wreckless play by Skelton that isn’t even looked at.

30 minutes, Skelton comes into the the ruck and cleans Ryan out, all good, then spends the next 20 seconds beyond the ruck humping Ryan like a dog as he tries to get up for the next phase

34.36 La Rochelle break up the left touchline off a lineout on our 22 they eventually get tackled, ruck is formed, Skelton comes in with a neck roll clear out on Furlong (about 3 mins after La Rochelle were pinged for a neck roll in the same area) nothing gets called, he then rubs it in by pinning Furlong down while they are attacking the line.



He got away with this type of stuff all day, fair play to him but a lot of that stuff is not about Skelton being a big bruiser who we can’t deal with it’s Skelton being allowed get away with things that are clear penalties. He more or less man marked Ryan off the ball. Ingenious if you are now allowed do that in rugby, penalty machine if you are called on it.

When I watch games live I tend to think everything is a penalty against the opposition (like most fans ) so I looked back just to see if he was up to shitehousery or was it me with my blue tinted glasses and he was at it the whole time. Again, he got away with it, kudos to him I just don’t understand how some of the clear and obvious stuff wasn’t pinged. Barnes would be chatting to him at times like he was a daddy telling his son to calm down, it’s the final of the biggest club rugby competition in Europe ffs and he’s babying a 6ft 8, 22stone + fella. Last year he was magnificent and destroyed us in offence and defence this season he just went around nailing lads off the ball.

This rivalry has some legs yet.

[carlow man]

Fair play to Skelton. Great sh!t housery!! That's exactly what you need in these games. What did JR do about it?? Nothing. This is the reason we need an enforcer. By all means Skelton seemed to get away with a lot and by the letter of the law he should have been penalised but he wasn't and he was a thorn in our side all day. We haven't had that since Hines. Can you imagine someone like him allowing that to happen on Saturday? No chance. I love JR but he's not nasty enough and given his history with head injuries he's not likely to go tearing into people with his head and shoulders making the first contact. Ryan needs a partner who sorts all that sh!t out. JJ has big shoes to fill if he's going to bring that type of aggression but let's be honest. You usually have to spend big to get those types of players and we don't want to go down that route for some reason. Time will tell. Fingers crossed JJ is the man for this sort of stuff!

[riocard911]

Fair play to Skelton. Great sh!t housery!! That's exactly what you need in these games. What did JR do about it?? Nothing. This is the reason we need an enforcer. By all means Skelton seemed to get away with a lot and by the letter of the law he should have been penalised but he wasn't and he was a thorn in our side all day. We haven't had that since Hines. Can you imagine someone like him allowing that to happen on Saturday? No chance. I love JR but he's not nasty enough and given his history with head injuries he's not likely to go tearing into people with his head and shoulders making the first contact. Ryan needs a partner who sorts all that sh!t out. JJ has big shoes to fill if he's going to bring that type of aggression but let's be honest. You usually have to spend big to get those types of players and we don't want to go down that route for some reason. Time will tell. Fingers crossed JJ is the man for this sort of stuff!

+1. I couldn't give a monkey's how many penos etc. we concede as long as we win.

[theghost]

As munster fan ,firstly haven't posted in good while but genuine hard luck on result ,small bits of momentum swing tight finals and it just didn't happen for leinster yesterday.
I think overall that their bench contributed more impact in last 20 than leinsters which was surprising as they were down a man for yc.
One aside there is a fair bit of comment on munster supporters supporting la rochelle and rog etc.
For me I always want an Irish team to win ,would I rather tadgh furlong or Skelton win a Heineken cup medal ,easy answer tadgh every day.
But there is a huge connection and affection for rog and donncha ryan in munster .
Fast forward 10 years in fantasy rugby land , Johnny sexton and say rhys ruddock are managing a French team v munster in a Heineken cup final ( both unlikely at the min ).
Dont tell me that some supporters wouldn't like to see them win in that scenario.

Anyways that's my tuppence worth, ye have a team to be proud of win or lose ,enjoy these times ,we had them too ,not so many but the memories are great .

[Dexter]

Fair play to Skelton. Great sh!t housery!! That's exactly what you need in these games. What did JR do about it?? Nothing. This is the reason we need an enforcer. By all means Skelton seemed to get away with a lot and by the letter of the law he should have been penalised but he wasn't and he was a thorn in our side all day. We haven't had that since Hines. Can you imagine someone like him allowing that to happen on Saturday? No chance. I love JR but he's not nasty enough and given his history with head injuries he's not likely to go tearing into people with his head and shoulders making the first contact. Ryan needs a partner who sorts all that sh!t out. JJ has big shoes to fill if he's going to bring that type of aggression but let's be honest. You usually have to spend big to get those types of players and we don't want to go down that route for some reason. Time will tell. Fingers crossed JJ is the man for this sort of stuff!

Problem is.. the game is in France. Ryan does anything in response and he's the one in trouble, giving away pens and getting carded. They'll replay it numerous times on the big screen and the crowd will be booing and screaming like madmen.

[carlow man]

Maybe so but we played sarries in the aviva and itoje was doing the same thing so it's not like it's a one off. If JR wants to take his game to the next level he needs to try a bit more of this. But it's not in him. You are either a horrible fecker or you ain't

[riocard911]

Maybe so but we played sarries in the aviva and itoje was doing the same thing so it's not like it's a one off. If JR wants to take his game to the next level he needs to try a bit more of this. But it's not in him. You are either a horrible fecker or you ain't

BO'D in his book stated it in black and white: If you don't enjoy inflicting pain, you've no place on a rugby pitch. They weren't perhaps the exact words, but you get the picture.

[paddyor]

I'm enjoying the scenes from La Rochelle: it's a small town in winter, with not a lot going on, and this win clearly means a lot to them.
A lot better than losing to Saracens, for example.

That said, there is a lot of utter tosh being spun about the club. It was irking me, so I went through it.
15 of the 23 on Saturday have been recruited to the club in the past five years, and the entire coaching team has been recruited since ROG joined in 2019.
They don't seem to have any clear sugardaddy and, other than Skelton and Danty, they haven't really signed any superstars since Vito (who is one of the longest-serving players at the club, joining six years ago)...but their success has undeniably been built on shrewd recruitment.

Yeah it's good to see it means something to them. It might not be the Bouclier but they still celebrated like it meant alot to them. Which is important for the futrue of the competition given the whinging from the English.

[desperado]

Taking the points were all correct calls for me. I’d have been fuming if we turned down the chance to go more than 7 ahead if we hadn’t scored. We also just weren’t playing well so not sure why people would have backed us to actually score a try off a lineout.

I think Ryan disagreed with Sexton at one point though? I forgot to look out for it on the rewatch but Barnes said something like “he’s the captain and the decision has already been made”. I think it was it was those two who were involved but might have it wrong.

That was for one in front of the posts, where I think it was the right call to kick it.

For me, the only one I would question is the one Byrne kicked after they had just had a second row sent to the bin. Surely, if ever there was a moment to try to go for a try and back our maul (which was doing well), that was it.

I think we ended up losing the period where we were a man up 3-7.

Just my opinion, but with Byrne's one 64mins only one pt up at 18-17 right call was the 3 points. Where it was positioned even, no guarantee he would have got in within 5 m if he went for touch. However, I'm convinced we should have gone for touch when 15-10 up. We had been on their line just short a few times. Go for the lineout and go again with a drive, even if another pen; repeat the dose. I'd wager if the situation was reversed LAR would have kicked for the corner - and not left until they crossed the whitewash. It was only 53mins in. To compound matters, to win that pen it took savage effort in the red zone, and right off the restart we gave a stupid pen away to give them the in resulting in try no 2. We lost the game in the use of the collective top 4 inches. Very small margins, but some poor decisions, mild panic under pressure, skills normally executed flawlessly failing us at key times - mostly down to mental strength. Maybe LAR drove us to that dark place where we started doubting ourselves; but alot of it was of our own making. All of this is if buts ands and maybes; you have to speculate to accumulate, and unlike the final of 2018 you got the sense we'd need min one try to win.

[desperado]

Don't know if anyone else on the forum was in the airport at 2300 Sat night. There were 4 flights back; 2 charters, 1 RA, 1 Aer Lingus I think all within 40 mins of each other. Place was full of Leinster fans returning and when the players arrived they got a good round of applause. Obviously a very crestfallen bunch; but very dignified and appreciative of the support. Roll on Saturday when we can all get back on the horse.

[Ruckedtobits]

I thought Skelton was handled with kid gloves by Barnes.

Here is just his first half roaming.

In the first minute when we were on penalty advantage from the lineout maul up the left hand side of the pitch Skelton absolutely clatters into the back of Ryan who had broken off the maul then in the next phase of play Ryan comes in to the ruck and drives into Skelton and Skelton grabs him by the scrum cap and claws at his face driving him into the ground. Literally all in the first minute. Both foul play, both cheap shots.

In the 7th minute there was a Leinster penalty for advantage under their posts and something happened where Kelleher and Lowe reacted to something but we never got to see it (surprise surprise) we just heard the TMO saying No 5 Will Skelton did a cheap shot, Barnes goes over and puts him under his wing and goes Will it’s not a card but you are falling down on players on the ground (which he did all match) and then you did something to the scrumhalf.

14.58 on the match clock they are attacking in our 22, they skip Skelton he looks for Ryan who is coming up in the line and puts his foot out and trips him. Honest to god, go have a look. Nothing picked up by the TMO.

23 minutes. We do brilliantly and Henshaw looks like he has held their man up for a maul turnover with the cavalry of Porter and Ryan, Skelton absolutely flys in to the side of it and nails Ryan in the back of the head. Barnes says he man got to ground and we play on. Another bit of wreckless play by Skelton that isn’t even looked at.

30 minutes, Skelton comes into the the ruck and cleans Ryan out, all good, then spends the next 20 seconds beyond the ruck humping Ryan like a dog as he tries to get up for the next phase

34.36 La Rochelle break up the left touchline off a lineout on our 22 they eventually get tackled, ruck is formed, Skelton comes in with a neck roll clear out on Furlong (about 3 mins after La Rochelle were pinged for a neck roll in the same area) nothing gets called, he then rubs it in by pinning Furlong down while they are attacking the line.



He got away with this type of stuff all day, fair play to him but a lot of that stuff is not about Skelton being a big bruiser who we can’t deal with it’s Skelton being allowed get away with things that are clear penalties. He more or less man marked Ryan off the ball. Ingenious if you are now allowed do that in rugby, penalty machine if you are called on it.

When I watch games live I tend to think everything is a penalty against the opposition (like most fans ) so I looked back just to see if he was up to shitehousery or was it me with my blue tinted glasses and he was at it the whole time. Again, he got away with it, kudos to him I just don’t understand how some of the clear and obvious stuff wasn’t pinged. Barnes would be chatting to him at times like he was a daddy telling his son to calm down, it’s the final of the biggest club rugby competition in Europe ffs and he’s babying a 6ft 8, 22stone + fella. Last year he was magnificent and destroyed us in offence and defence this season he just went around nailing lads off the ball.

This rivalry has some legs yet.

Rugby is firstly a physical contest. It is not (only) an intellectual battle, it's also physical.

For as long as I have been watching / playing / coaching / watching rugby, big players from S Africa, England and France have been trying to beat up smaller, but usually fitter, players from New Zealand, Ireland and various other countries. NZ are the only country who have a superior record against all three big physical nations.

We must firstly accept that until we demonstrate how we can take on power, strength and size in any guise, teams that have those attributes will employ them first and foremost to beat us up and then beat us on the scoreboard. Any other conclusion is fantasy.

I would love if we could do it exclusively by skill and tempo. But isn't always possible. Witness the S African and English world cup victories.

I am delighted to see the emergence of Joe McCarthy and the signing of Jason Jenkins. McCarthy should be force-fed a high protein diet for 4 months and Jenkins should have a two-player shadow detail of Academy players, passing ball after ball to him, high and low for 15 hours a day.

We'll be back, of that I've no doubt. However, no point in surviving through to the Aviva next May, unless we learned how to expect hard hits and high tackles in a European Final, that's the price of admission for every game of knockout rugby

[riocard911]

Don't know if anyone else on the forum was in the airport at 2300 Sat night. There were 4 flights back; 2 charters, 1 RA, 1 Aer Lingus I think all within 40 mins of each other. Place was full of Leinster fans returning and when the players arrived they got a good round of applause. Obviously a very crestfallen bunch; but very dignified and appreciative of the support. Roll on Saturday when we can all get back on the horse.

I'm delighted to hear that. It's the least they deserve. COYBIB!

[ronk]

Fair play to Skelton. Great sh!t housery!! That's exactly what you need in these games. What did JR do about it?? Nothing. This is the reason we need an enforcer. By all means Skelton seemed to get away with a lot and by the letter of the law he should have been penalised but he wasn't and he was a thorn in our side all day. We haven't had that since Hines. Can you imagine someone like him allowing that to happen on Saturday? No chance. I love JR but he's not nasty enough and given his history with head injuries he's not likely to go tearing into people with his head and shoulders making the first contact. Ryan needs a partner who sorts all that sh!t out. JJ has big shoes to fill if he's going to bring that type of aggression but let's be honest. You usually have to spend big to get those types of players and we don't want to go down that route for some reason. Time will tell. Fingers crossed JJ is the man for this sort of stuff!

Problem is.. the game is in France. Ryan does anything in response and he's the one in trouble, giving away pens and getting carded. They'll replay it numerous times on the big screen and the crowd will be booing and screaming like madmen.

A week earlier and it was a very different story. Munster needed to stop relying on fight. We're used to teams trying to get in the mud with us, we're used to hostile refs. Skelton tried all that but didn't get a reaction and he didn't shut down Ryan or get a free hand elsewhere.

We were in France and we were never getting much. Discipline almost sank La Rochelle. They gave up points, they stretched. They got away with a lot of obstruction and other stuff but they were lucky not to get pinged off the park. Maybe a little more pressure early gets us that. Their discipline got them a yellow card. And them getting away with so much made it harder to give us one.

Every ref nowadays gives a pointless both sides behave speech regardless of who started it.

We're not really setup to be the villains like Toulon, Saracens. Our best chance of winning is to be the team who just play. The red card last year probably sank La Rochelle.

I like Ryan. I don't need him to try to break someone's neck like Etzebeth on Friday. We just need to play better.

[Ruckedtobits]

It is very difficult, almost well nigh impossible, to get a knock-out win in France. The intensity of the collisions and breakdowns; the crowd impact on refereeing decisions; the influence of the French TV producers in the availability of TV replays, are some of the factors that enhance the prospects of a French win.

We were beaten in the final minutes by a small margin. It was gut wrenching, it was ball-breaking but it was better than before, but just not good enough.

We have a final in Dublin next Season. It seems a long time away and, in truth, it's probably about 27 games away, but we've got to start preparing for it now. We've also got to start preparing for a series of finals in SA (2), France (2), England (2), Italy, Wales & Scotland before we get a further final in Ireland. That could easily be another decade after next year. This Leinster team will be well over the horizon by that time.

We know that for the present all we can do is suck it up. Like the Dutch soccer teams of the past who railed against the UEFA bias towards Spanish, Italian, English and German Clubs, we must recognise that we are on the hind tit when it comes to European rugby influence. We're entertainers, we travel in numbers, we attend all the meetings, but we're small fry.

We'll eventually get our fifth star and probably with this Squad. But let nobody think it will be easy. The big Unions believe they should have the hegemony and they will continue to place every subtle barrier in our way to prevent us progressing in any way possible.

[Dexter]

It is very difficult, almost well nigh impossible, to get a knock-out win in France. The intensity of the collisions and breakdowns; the crowd impact on refereeing decisions; the influence of the French TV producers in the availability of TV replays, are some of the factors that enhance the prospects of a French win.

We were beaten in the final minutes by a small margin. It was gut wrenching, it was ball-breaking but it was better than before, but just not good enough.

We have a final in Dublin next Season. It seems a long time away and, in truth, it's probably about 27 games away, but we've got to start preparing for it now. We've also got to start preparing for a series of finals in SA (2), France (2), England (2), Italy, Wales & Scotland before we get a further final in Ireland. That could easily be another decade after next year. This Leinster team will be well over the horizon by that time.

We know that for the present all we can do is suck it up. Like the Dutch soccer teams of the past who railed against the UEFA bias towards Spanish, Italian, English and German Clubs, we must recognise that we are on the hind tit when it comes to European rugby influence. We're entertainers, we travel in numbers, we attend all the meetings, but we're small fry.

We'll eventually get our fifth star and probably with this Squad. But let nobody think it will be easy. The big Unions believe they should have the hegemony and they will continue to place every subtle barrier in our way to prevent us progressing in any way possible.

Thank you for posting this. It's what I've been trying to say but you put it across very well and very clearly.

[FLIP]

Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.