Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

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Ruckedtobits
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Dexter wrote: May 31st, 2022, 4:06 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
But, but, but.. ROC in the Indo today:
"Ireland will fear contagion as Leinster’s power failure points to systematic issues"

So those stats can't be right, surely...
And he's considered an authority on strategic rugby issues? Since when?
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ronk
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ ... heap-shot/

Complaining about La Rochelle being too easily pinged in the first half and Leinster not getting a yellow later in the game. Fulsome praise for La Rochelle players. Oddly enough that isn't a French newspaper.
carlow man
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by carlow man »

FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 6:32 pm
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm I'm amazed we never genuinely went for the turnover in the last 10 mins and our lack of an genuine poacher was apparent.
Big Mike did go for one and we were pinged. Barnes was not allowing anything but the cleanest of turnovers from us. And even then, we turned them over 10 times. This narrative of " Leinster need bigger and meaner" just doesn't have a basis in fact.
Bigger and meaner wins cups. All our defeats are when we get dragged into an arm wrestle. We don't have the players to go at it with these lads. Scrum being pushed backwards. Maul is the same. We were lucky to have 15 on the pitch on Sat. Bigger means stronger. Its not rocket science. Getting the balance is the key.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by FLIP »

carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 7:19 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 6:32 pm
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm I'm amazed we never genuinely went for the turnover in the last 10 mins and our lack of an genuine poacher was apparent.
Big Mike did go for one and we were pinged. Barnes was not allowing anything but the cleanest of turnovers from us. And even then, we turned them over 10 times. This narrative of " Leinster need bigger and meaner" just doesn't have a basis in fact.
Bigger and meaner wins cups. All our defeats are when we get dragged into an arm wrestle. We don't have the players to go at it with these lads. Scrum being pushed backwards. Maul is the same. We were lucky to have 15 on the pitch on Sat. Bigger means stronger. Its not rocket science. Getting the balance is the key.
Our maul was pushing them all over the place. We won 100% of our scrums. They were lucky to have 15 on the pitch in the first 20 minutes too. We lost the match because of the choices made on the field and the mistakes made. The numbers just don't lie.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by carlow man »

FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 7:43 pm
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 7:19 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 6:32 pm

Big Mike did go for one and we were pinged. Barnes was not allowing anything but the cleanest of turnovers from us. And even then, we turned them over 10 times. This narrative of " Leinster need bigger and meaner" just doesn't have a basis in fact.
Bigger and meaner wins cups. All our defeats are when we get dragged into an arm wrestle. We don't have the players to go at it with these lads. Scrum being pushed backwards. Maul is the same. We were lucky to have 15 on the pitch on Sat. Bigger means stronger. Its not rocket science. Getting the balance is the key.
Our maul was pushing them all over the place. We won 100% of our scrums. They were lucky to have 15 on the pitch in the first 20 minutes too. We lost the match because of the choices made on the field and the mistakes made. The numbers just don't lie.
And how well did we fare on the LAR scrums and mauls? LAR knew going into the last 15 mins they had our number.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 8:07 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 7:43 pm
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 7:19 pm

Bigger and meaner wins cups. All our defeats are when we get dragged into an arm wrestle. We don't have the players to go at it with these lads. Scrum being pushed backwards. Maul is the same. We were lucky to have 15 on the pitch on Sat. Bigger means stronger. Its not rocket science. Getting the balance is the key.
Our maul was pushing them all over the place. We won 100% of our scrums. They were lucky to have 15 on the pitch in the first 20 minutes too. We lost the match because of the choices made on the field and the mistakes made. The numbers just don't lie.
And how well did we fare on the LAR scrums and mauls? LAR knew going into the last 15 mins they had our number.
No they didn't. They went for desperate tactics to try and pick and go and we held out until the ball came out funny out of a ruck and out defence was beaten. The game was entirely in the balance. We had to play differently against that much power but we were set to beat it. We dispatched Toulouse and Leicester, we're able to do it. It wasn't our day. We have a game plan to beat them and we'll keep at it.

In any case it doesn't matter. The Irish rugby development pathway makes it almost impossible to develop the type of power players these teams have and the IRFU won't let us spent that kind of money. It's not genetic, guys like Buckley and Maguire were plenty big and strong. Brennan is that much bigger than he would be if he was in Ireland. SPICER obviously too.

Shorter and/or lighter locks have no trouble getting provincial caps in Ireland. We won't carry bigger ones though, as we saw when Jack Dunne bulked up. We can prioritize a little but fundamentally that won't change. Even if the IRFU did make it happen, we probably don't do any better in 30°C in the South of France in May.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by carlow man »

ronk wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:27 pm
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 8:07 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 7:43 pm

Our maul was pushing them all over the place. We won 100% of our scrums. They were lucky to have 15 on the pitch in the first 20 minutes too. We lost the match because of the choices made on the field and the mistakes made. The numbers just don't lie.
And how well did we fare on the LAR scrums and mauls? LAR knew going into the last 15 mins they had our number.
No they didn't. They went for desperate tactics to try and pick and go and we held out until the ball came out funny out of a ruck and out defence was beaten. The game was entirely in the balance. We had to play differently against that much power but we were set to beat it. We dispatched Toulouse and Leicester, we're able to do it. It wasn't our day. We have a game plan to beat them and we'll keep at it.

In any case it doesn't matter. The Irish rugby development pathway makes it almost impossible to develop the type of power players these teams have and the IRFU won't let us spent that kind of money. It's not genetic, guys like Buckley and Maguire were plenty big and strong. Brennan is that much bigger than he would be if he was in Ireland. SPICER obviously too.

Shorter and/or lighter locks have no trouble getting provincial caps in Ireland. We won't carry bigger ones though, as we saw when Jack Dunne bulked up. We can prioritize a little but fundamentally that won't change. Even if the IRFU did make it happen, we probably don't do any better in 30°C in the South of France in May.
Until the IRFU allow us to buy a world class lock or we find a private investor like munster had with snyman and de Allende, ulster have with vermulaan etc, then we will have to do it on the cheap. The IRFU are obsessed with bending over backwards for munster yet the most successful side in the country has to beg the union aswell give other provinces its own players just to get someone like jj in. Sheer madness. Will have to agree to disagree about the match at the weekend but that's why we have our own opinions!!


Onwards we go. Can't say I'm excited about the Glasgow match but I'm sure in not alone there.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Fred Funk »

Suprised nobody mentioned that the offload for the LR first try looked forward. I have played it back a few times and I can only see the hands going foward.
It gave the winger that extra half yard v Keenan.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by the spoofer »

Fred Funk wrote: June 1st, 2022, 12:04 am Suprised nobody mentioned that the offload for the LR first try looked forward. I have played it back a few times and I can only see the hands going foward.
It gave the winger that extra half yard v Keenan.
Yeah, thought so but probably not “clear and obvious” so right to let it stand.
dougie the flanker
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:09 pm
ronk wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:27 pm
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 8:07 pm

And how well did we fare on the LAR scrums and mauls? LAR knew going into the last 15 mins they had our number.
No they didn't. They went for desperate tactics to try and pick and go and we held out until the ball came out funny out of a ruck and out defence was beaten. The game was entirely in the balance. We had to play differently against that much power but we were set to beat it. We dispatched Toulouse and Leicester, we're able to do it. It wasn't our day. We have a game plan to beat them and we'll keep at it.

In any case it doesn't matter. The Irish rugby development pathway makes it almost impossible to develop the type of power players these teams have and the IRFU won't let us spent that kind of money. It's not genetic, guys like Buckley and Maguire were plenty big and strong. Brennan is that much bigger than he would be if he was in Ireland. SPICER obviously too.

Shorter and/or lighter locks have no trouble getting provincial caps in Ireland. We won't carry bigger ones though, as we saw when Jack Dunne bulked up. We can prioritize a little but fundamentally that won't change. Even if the IRFU did make it happen, we probably don't do any better in 30°C in the South of France in May.
Until the IRFU allow us to buy a world class lock or we find a private investor like munster had with snyman and de Allende, ulster have with vermulaan etc, then we will have to do it on the cheap. The IRFU are obsessed with bending over backwards for munster yet the most successful side in the country has to beg the union aswell give other provinces its own players just to get someone like jj in.
This makes no sense. You say Leinster have to get in players like Jenkins because of lack of IRFU support. Munster had to get Jenkins because IRFU wouldn't approve it after we had agreed a deal with Peter Steph du Toit. Jenkins is literally a Munster player.

And as you point out de Allende, Snyman etc are private investments the same as Denis O'Brien did for Johnny Sextons wages a few years back.

Munster of course have always had exceptions for positions like tight head and centre where we struggle badly to develop our own. But it's the exact same thing with Leinster and second row.

In past 10 years you've had Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Scott Fardy plus a lot of lads that didn't really hit the levels you needed - Kane Douglas and now Jason Jenkins. All big bruiser international second rows. Owen Finnegan was before those guys in the late 2000s just before the first win.

That's not a dig BTW. I agree a big second row would suit the team perfectly. But Munster have had as much support as any province. Connacht and Ulster have got support with moving players from Leinster too.

But the idea that Leinster sort of achieve in spite of IRFU doesn't stack up.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Flash Gordon »

dougie the flanker wrote: June 1st, 2022, 8:19 am
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:09 pm
ronk wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:27 pm

No they didn't. They went for desperate tactics to try and pick and go and we held out until the ball came out funny out of a ruck and out defence was beaten. The game was entirely in the balance. We had to play differently against that much power but we were set to beat it. We dispatched Toulouse and Leicester, we're able to do it. It wasn't our day. We have a game plan to beat them and we'll keep at it.

In any case it doesn't matter. The Irish rugby development pathway makes it almost impossible to develop the type of power players these teams have and the IRFU won't let us spent that kind of money. It's not genetic, guys like Buckley and Maguire were plenty big and strong. Brennan is that much bigger than he would be if he was in Ireland. SPICER obviously too.

Shorter and/or lighter locks have no trouble getting provincial caps in Ireland. We won't carry bigger ones though, as we saw when Jack Dunne bulked up. We can prioritize a little but fundamentally that won't change. Even if the IRFU did make it happen, we probably don't do any better in 30°C in the South of France in May.
Until the IRFU allow us to buy a world class lock or we find a private investor like munster had with snyman and de Allende, ulster have with vermulaan etc, then we will have to do it on the cheap. The IRFU are obsessed with bending over backwards for munster yet the most successful side in the country has to beg the union aswell give other provinces its own players just to get someone like jj in.
This makes no sense. You say Leinster have to get in players like Jenkins because of lack of IRFU support. Munster had to get Jenkins because IRFU wouldn't approve it after we had agreed a deal with Peter Steph du Toit. Jenkins is literally a Munster player.

And as you point out de Allende, Snyman etc are private investments the same as Denis O'Brien did for Johnny Sextons wages a few years back.

Munster of course have always had exceptions for positions like tight head and centre where we struggle badly to develop our own. But it's the exact same thing with Leinster and second row.

In past 10 years you've had Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Scott Fardy plus a lot of lads that didn't really hit the levels you needed - Kane Douglas and now Jason Jenkins. All big bruiser international second rows. Owen Finnegan was before those guys in the late 2000s just before the first win.

That's not a dig BTW. I agree a big second row would suit the team perfectly. But Munster have had as much support as any province. Connacht and Ulster have got support with moving players from Leinster too.

But the idea that Leinster sort of achieve in spite of IRFU doesn't stack up.
You can't compare the two as being somehow equal in my view. Leo Cullen's Leinster team have consistently played with 1 or 2 NIQ players and the Academy results in 60 players turning out for us in a season. Unfortunately Munster's academy has not been producing and that's an issue on 2 levels, one for Munster's ability to compete on the pitch and financially but also for Ireland. Every time there's an Ireland squad released you see complaints and moaning about provincial bias from Ulster and Munster fans but the reality is that they aren't doing their jobs and asking questions of selections. For me, a core accountability for a coaching set up should be the production of Irish players.

That aside, I don't believe this narrative that a big beast of a lock is going to solve everything. Last weekend we got ourselves into a winning position playing the rugby we do while making uncharacteristic errors and with a less than perfect execution of our usual game plan. 8 points up and 10 minutes in the final quarter with a man advantage we should have won the game. The decisive errors were not line out losses or scrum penalties. And by the way, you have to give La Rochelle and their coaching team MASSIVE credit for the way they set up and their mental strength.

There is a Leinster way of playing, fast, quick ruck ball, brilliant angles of running/attack and that's a really important reason for why people love watching Leinster. We need to keep that core philosophy, when we we strayed from that (the MOC years) we were awful to watch AND unsuccessful.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

Flash Gordon wrote: June 1st, 2022, 9:42 am
dougie the flanker wrote: June 1st, 2022, 8:19 am
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:09 pm

Until the IRFU allow us to buy a world class lock or we find a private investor like munster had with snyman and de Allende, ulster have with vermulaan etc, then we will have to do it on the cheap. The IRFU are obsessed with bending over backwards for munster yet the most successful side in the country has to beg the union aswell give other provinces its own players just to get someone like jj in.
This makes no sense. You say Leinster have to get in players like Jenkins because of lack of IRFU support. Munster had to get Jenkins because IRFU wouldn't approve it after we had agreed a deal with Peter Steph du Toit. Jenkins is literally a Munster player.

And as you point out de Allende, Snyman etc are private investments the same as Denis O'Brien did for Johnny Sextons wages a few years back.

Munster of course have always had exceptions for positions like tight head and centre where we struggle badly to develop our own. But it's the exact same thing with Leinster and second row.

In past 10 years you've had Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Scott Fardy plus a lot of lads that didn't really hit the levels you needed - Kane Douglas and now Jason Jenkins. All big bruiser international second rows. Owen Finnegan was before those guys in the late 2000s just before the first win.

That's not a dig BTW. I agree a big second row would suit the team perfectly. But Munster have had as much support as any province. Connacht and Ulster have got support with moving players from Leinster too.

But the idea that Leinster sort of achieve in spite of IRFU doesn't stack up.
You can't compare the two as being somehow equal in my view. Leo Cullen's Leinster team have consistently played with 1 or 2 NIQ players and the Academy results in 60 players turning out for us in a season. Unfortunately Munster's academy has not been producing and that's an issue on 2 levels, one for Munster's ability to compete on the pitch and financially but also for Ireland. Every time there's an Ireland squad released you see complaints and moaning about provincial bias from Ulster and Munster fans but the reality is that they aren't doing their jobs and asking questions of selections. For me, a core accountability for a coaching set up should be the production of Irish players.

That aside, I don't believe this narrative that a big beast of a lock is going to solve everything. Last weekend we got ourselves into a winning position playing the rugby we do while making uncharacteristic errors and with a less than perfect execution of our usual game plan. 8 points up and 10 minutes in the final quarter with a man advantage we should have won the game. The decisive errors were not line out losses or scrum penalties. And by the way, you have to give La Rochelle and their coaching team MASSIVE credit for the way they set up and their mental strength.

There is a Leinster way of playing, fast, quick ruck ball, brilliant angles of running/attack and that's a really important reason for why people love watching Leinster. We need to keep that core philosophy, when we we strayed from that (the MOC years) we were awful to watch AND unsuccessful.
Yea I can't argue with any of that. All I challenged was the idea that Leinster get no help from IRFU in finding a world class lock when you have had several and that IRFU is bending over backwards to help Munster. I didn't say anything about international representation. We've got a fair crack at the whip and as much as I see Munster fans moaning about how we should have more players included I see lots of fans from other provinces moan about O'Mahony or Murray or Earls inclusion - I think thats just how fans go. We always want our own in there.

Its a very valid point about our academys track record which is now starting to produce at an acceptable rate - maybe not at Leinsters level but at a level I'm very satisfied with.

I also agree that you had the winning of the game regardless of second row and above all else don't go near how you played under the MOC years. That was a pretty dark time.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

dougie the flanker wrote: June 1st, 2022, 8:19 am
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:09 pm
ronk wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:27 pm

No they didn't. They went for desperate tactics to try and pick and go and we held out until the ball came out funny out of a ruck and out defence was beaten. The game was entirely in the balance. We had to play differently against that much power but we were set to beat it. We dispatched Toulouse and Leicester, we're able to do it. It wasn't our day. We have a game plan to beat them and we'll keep at it.

In any case it doesn't matter. The Irish rugby development pathway makes it almost impossible to develop the type of power players these teams have and the IRFU won't let us spent that kind of money. It's not genetic, guys like Buckley and Maguire were plenty big and strong. Brennan is that much bigger than he would be if he was in Ireland. SPICER obviously too.

Shorter and/or lighter locks have no trouble getting provincial caps in Ireland. We won't carry bigger ones though, as we saw when Jack Dunne bulked up. We can prioritize a little but fundamentally that won't change. Even if the IRFU did make it happen, we probably don't do any better in 30°C in the South of France in May.
Until the IRFU allow us to buy a world class lock or we find a private investor like munster had with snyman and de Allende, ulster have with vermulaan etc, then we will have to do it on the cheap. The IRFU are obsessed with bending over backwards for munster yet the most successful side in the country has to beg the union aswell give other provinces its own players just to get someone like jj in.
This makes no sense. You say Leinster have to get in players like Jenkins because of lack of IRFU support. Munster had to get Jenkins because IRFU wouldn't approve it after we had agreed a deal with Peter Steph du Toit. Jenkins is literally a Munster player.

And as you point out de Allende, Snyman etc are private investments the same as Denis O'Brien did for Johnny Sextons wages a few years back.

Munster of course have always had exceptions for positions like tight head and centre where we struggle badly to develop our own. But it's the exact same thing with Leinster and second row.

In past 10 years you've had Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Scott Fardy plus a lot of lads that didn't really hit the levels you needed - Kane Douglas and now Jason Jenkins. All big bruiser international second rows. Owen Finnegan was before those guys in the late 2000s just before the first win.

That's not a dig BTW. I agree a big second row would suit the team perfectly. But Munster have had as much support as any province. Connacht and Ulster have got support with moving players from Leinster too.

But the idea that Leinster sort of achieve in spite of IRFU doesn't stack up.
I think it does stack up. One of the major reasons for Welsh underachievement is jealousy between regions and between clubs and regions. 1 region with period of dominance would be a problem they would try and correct.

The strength and depth of Leinster's squad has been the dominant subject of non next-game discourse for years. It has been discussed a lot, not just here. Players have moved, players have been pressured to move. It's one thing to say that it was the right thing to do in spite of downsides, it's another to say there were no downsides. We lost players directly, good players and we didn't have them when we needed them. We lost IQ players indirectly in that none of the better signings came to Leinster. Beirne is a specific example. Recruitment of non-Irish players favoured other provinces too. 3 Munster players got Central Contract renewals in the last 12 months despite not being starting XV players (behind players who don't have them) and a 30 year old player was given a 3 year CC.

The IRFU made a choice, they have to live with it. Maybe they regret it, maybe they don't.

There was a price to pay for moving Henshaw to Leinster. But there were also benefits. I think they'd do it again.

Leo Cullen won 3 Heineken Cups as a player. Other people might forget, but we know about the players we produced. O'Kelly started in 2009 too with Toner on the bench.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

ronk wrote: June 1st, 2022, 1:59 pm
dougie the flanker wrote: June 1st, 2022, 8:19 am
carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 11:09 pm

Until the IRFU allow us to buy a world class lock or we find a private investor like munster had with snyman and de Allende, ulster have with vermulaan etc, then we will have to do it on the cheap. The IRFU are obsessed with bending over backwards for munster yet the most successful side in the country has to beg the union aswell give other provinces its own players just to get someone like jj in.
This makes no sense. You say Leinster have to get in players like Jenkins because of lack of IRFU support. Munster had to get Jenkins because IRFU wouldn't approve it after we had agreed a deal with Peter Steph du Toit. Jenkins is literally a Munster player.

And as you point out de Allende, Snyman etc are private investments the same as Denis O'Brien did for Johnny Sextons wages a few years back.

Munster of course have always had exceptions for positions like tight head and centre where we struggle badly to develop our own. But it's the exact same thing with Leinster and second row.

In past 10 years you've had Nathan Hines, Brad Thorn, Scott Fardy plus a lot of lads that didn't really hit the levels you needed - Kane Douglas and now Jason Jenkins. All big bruiser international second rows. Owen Finnegan was before those guys in the late 2000s just before the first win.

That's not a dig BTW. I agree a big second row would suit the team perfectly. But Munster have had as much support as any province. Connacht and Ulster have got support with moving players from Leinster too.

But the idea that Leinster sort of achieve in spite of IRFU doesn't stack up.
I think it does stack up. One of the major reasons for Welsh underachievement is jealousy between regions and between clubs and regions. 1 region with period of dominance would be a problem they would try and correct.

The strength and depth of Leinster's squad has been the dominant subject of non next-game discourse for years. It has been discussed a lot, not just here. Players have moved, players have been pressured to move. It's one thing to say that it was the right thing to do in spite of downsides, it's another to say there were no downsides. We lost players directly, good players and we didn't have them when we needed them. We lost IQ players indirectly in that none of the better signings came to Leinster. Beirne is a specific example. Recruitment of non-Irish players favoured other provinces too. 3 Munster players got Central Contract renewals in the last 12 months despite not being starting XV players (behind players who don't have them) and a 30 year old player was given a 3 year CC.

The IRFU made a choice, they have to live with it. Maybe they regret it, maybe they don't.

There was a price to pay for moving Henshaw to Leinster. But there were also benefits. I think they'd do it again.

Leo Cullen won 3 Heineken Cups as a player. Other people might forget, but we know about the players we produced. O'Kelly started in 2009 too with Toner on the bench.
I didn't forget about any of those or suggest there was anything wrong in Leinster getting to have Hines/Fardy/Thorne etc. They're entitled to have marquee players the same as any team.

All I'm challenging is the idea that IRFU are holding Leinster back and giving too much to other provinces, Munster in particular.

I didn't say there were no downsides or at least I certainly didn't intend that to be the case. That happens with the give and take of players. Munster had Sean Cronin, Mike Ross and Eoin Reddan on the books during our glory days. We couldn't give them the game time they wanted and they went abroad/to Connacht and eventually came to Leinster where they contributed to success.

The Tadhg Beirne example you cite - Leinster let go of Tadhg Beirne and signed Scott Fardy. When Beirne wanted to come back to Leinster as well as James Ryan and Devin Toner he had also Scott Fardy in his path. The IRFU showed a lot of leniency in relation to Scott Fardy at a time when they were clamping down on multiple renewals of NIQ players. Fardy has played almost 50% more matches for Leinster than James Ryan has. Again, I'm not complaining I don't see anything wrong with how Scott Fardy was handled by Leinster or the IRFU. All I'm saying is that the original claim (that the IRFU is not supporting Leinster with regards to second rows) is not exactly fair.

No arguments from me on the central contracts. As big a Keith Earls fan as I am I find that really peculiar. Both Munster and Ireland are well stocked at winger. Conor Murray is the same very lucky to justify it and many Munster fans are hoping to see Craig Casey claim that starting role.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

The central contracts are players of very long standing with glittering careers. Keeping them on central contracts has boosted their standing and secured their services. They may well be on reduced contracts. But it also reflects the realism that they were likely to leave or retire before agreeing Munster provincial contracts. That hasn't really happened with Leinster or Ulster internationals.

Cronin, Reddan, Ross were all discarded by Munster but went on to surpass the players who stayed. That happened with Beirne too, but MOC was the big factor there.

Munster signed Jenkins this year into the panel of locks they had so clearly they thought they could sustain that panel. Beirne returning to Leinster was entirely feasible. Molony has been averaging 20 games a season. Beirne has never talked about whether he wanted to return to Leinster but he wore a blue scrumcap for 2 red teams. I think he'd have come back if it had been on the table.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dropkick »

ronk wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:27 pm
In any case it doesn't matter. The Irish rugby development pathway makes it almost impossible to develop the type of power players these teams have and the IRFU won't let us spent that kind of money. It's not genetic, guys like Buckley and Maguire were plenty big and strong. Brennan is that much bigger than he would be if he was in Ireland. SPICER obviously too.

Shorter and/or lighter locks have no trouble getting provincial caps in Ireland. We won't carry bigger ones though, as we saw when Jack Dunne bulked up. We can prioritize a little but fundamentally that won't change. Even if the IRFU did make it happen, we probably don't do any better in 30°C in the South of France in May.

There's a kind of one size fits all model of player in this country. Workrate is priority number 1 and every player is expected to get into shape. I remember reading how Quinn Roux was much heavier when he was playing in South Africa. He came to ireland and lost a few stone in the Irish system. Likewise Andrew Porter was much bigger when he was playing U20s.


All players are expected to be able to go 80 minutes. This sounds good but while 8 subs are allowed (which I think is very wrong) most of a pack can be replaced. So essentially Irish 80 minute men are coming up against opposition who are more bulked up. They might not be as fit as the Irish players but it doesn't matter because they will be replaced after 45 minutes.


A French tightheads and his replacement can last about 90 minutes combined. An irish tighthead and his replacement can last 160 minutes combined. A match is only 80 minutes long so taking a starter and his replacement into account, theyre too far towards being aerobically fit vs anaerobically.


I think Irish rugby should be looking to find impact players. Players who are not aerobically as fit as others but are specialist subs who provide an impact.


That's not to say the current strategy of fast paced rugby is wrong. Irelands had great success from it in the last year. France and La Rochelle managed to overcome it but it could be a case of making a few tactical tweaks. The scrum though is a concern.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

dougie the flanker wrote: June 1st, 2022, 3:43 pm
The Tadhg Beirne example you cite - Leinster let go of Tadhg Beirne and signed Scott Fardy.
It would be so much more excusable if that were true.

We started Mick Kearney in the Pro12 final in Beirne's last year. Beirne was behind Toner, and Fardy was signed a full year after Beirne was released.

But Beirne was really behind Mike McCarthy, Haydon Triggs, Mick Kearney, Tom Denton, a young Molony. We released Beirne and signed Ian Nagle.

There's no good justification for that. He'd been injured a lot and we were a complete shambles at the time. We hadn't stemmed the bleeding after the MOC era. We made a lot of mistakes.

If we'd continues to do that sort of thing it would be a problem, but we've done really well on development.

I'm not saying we should have been entitled to sign Beirne. Munster clearly needed him more. I think he was open to returning to us, mainly he wanted to play for Ireland. Realistically he'd have easily made the squad for the '19 Heineken Cup final and Pro14 final. He helped Munster reach a Heineken Cup semi, he's been a valuable part of their rebuilding. Even with hindsight it's debatable which was the right decision. The IRFU have a difficult job when they choose which province to help.

Now that we all know what could have been and how close it was it's an opportunity to review how we assess the interprovincial resource allocation decisions. There are no guarantees even if things had been done differently.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

Yikes I hadn't realised quite how bad the decision making under MOC was!!
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

Beirne never played for MOC. He was injured a lot though. He played 4 times under Leo before he was released.

Leo didn't have a good record in his first year and he wasn't doing well as a coach. Leinster were in crisis and he picked short term (unsuccessfully) before pivoting to youth late his first year.

Beirne broke into the Scarlets team as starting regular by December after being cut at Leinster. We never gave him a proper shot. To me the issue is that we tried to make him play like everyone else rather than be good at what he was good at, Scarlets got that right. When a player makes a turnaround that fast it's that a team has/is adapted to them rather than the player has changed (it's always a bit of both).

Mike Ross was an example of a similar turnaround for a cut player.

If we'd spotted that about Beirne and kept him it would have been best. If the IRFU had put its weight behind bringing him to Leinster when he was returning, then Leinster would have been a better team. It wasn't openly debated at the time, we were too worried about the players we were already losing to other provinces.

I'm thrilled for Beirne that he went on to have such a brilliant career.

I'm not trying to dwell on the past or what might have been, I just want to recognise what actually happened so we can inform decisions in the present and future. Leinster are losing 4 valuable squad members to Connacht this year, but they all seem like reasonable moves and we have cover.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Serb »

In fairness, there are very few success stories of players leaving Leinster and having a great career. We have gotten it right almost always, Beirne is probably the only player I would have taken back given the chance. It’s a good record.
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