Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

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the spoofer
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by the spoofer »

FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
Red zone efficiency was a factor. BTW, I am not a big fan of speculative kicks on penalty advantage especially when in/near 22. Ref's play huge advantage in those areas so you can take your time looking for a weakness rather than hoof and hope.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Degz »

I'd be pretty sure that even possession was slightly in our favour but was massively skewed by their dominance of it in the last ten minutes.

Being at the game, it 100% felt different to the other defeats, I genuinely don't believe we 'lost the physical battle'. To me, it was all mental. We lost it in the top two inches. The Irish and favouritism just don't mix, not sure how many examples we need to live through.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by OTT »

I think this is an excellent take on the match from a Leinstercentric perspective. Worth a read.


http://www.harpinonrugby.net/2022/05/le ... le-23.html
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curates_egg
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by curates_egg »

FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
Very interesting. A key stat there is ball in play: 25% less than the Toulouse game.
I'm pretty sure that, where we have thrived, it has been in games with high BiP.
La Rochelle were excellent at running the clock down in crucial parts of the game.

For me, the perfect whammy was the sequence that started with JOB's error, kneeing the ball dead on 58.06 (clock is only stopped on 58.23, and stops for well over a minute).
Not only did we concede 60 metres and possession, we also gave LAR a big breather, which Barnes totally indulged. You could hear Sexton asking him about the LAR players lying on the ground.
Sexton then took a pretty poor dropout (at 58.36, after the clock had been back on again), even though Lowe had originally wanted to take the drop.
After Berjon's brilliant individual follow up to the missed dropgoal (dropgoal on 58.43, with LAR players still all just standing around), and Sexton's mistake in not clearing, came the penalty (awarded 59.00, clock only stopped on 59.34, after that almost another minute of stoppage with a substitution; lineout then thrown on 59.50).
The LAR players essentially had a nice three-minute breather (of which 1.5 minutes was with the clock ticking but ball not in play) to set them up for their try.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

curates_egg wrote: May 31st, 2022, 12:37 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
Very interesting. A key stat there is ball in play: 25% less than the Toulouse game.
I'm pretty sure that, where we have thrived, it has been in games with high BiP.
La Rochelle were excellent at running the clock down in crucial parts of the game.

For me, the perfect whammy was the sequence that started with JOB's error, kneeing the ball dead on 58.06 (clock is only stopped on 58.23, and stops for well over a minute).
Not only did we concede 60 metres and possession, we also gave LAR a big breather, which Barnes totally indulged. You could hear Sexton asking him about the LAR players lying on the ground.
Sexton then took a pretty poor dropout (at 58.36, after the clock had been back on again), even though Lowe had originally wanted to take the drop.
After Berjon's brilliant individual follow up to the missed dropgoal (dropgoal on 58.43, with LAR players still all just standing around), and Sexton's mistake in not clearing, came the penalty (awarded 59.00, clock only stopped on 59.34, after that almost another minute of stoppage with a substitution; lineout then thrown on 59.50).
The LAR players essentially had a nice three-minute breather (of which 1.5 minutes was with the clock ticking but ball not in play) to set them up for their try.
I think some of these things can only be attributed after the match.

La Rochelle are losing by 8 points with just over 20 minutes to go. There aren't many teams happy to let the clock tick away down in that situation.

As you say Sexton went enquiring after Barnes about the bodies on the floor. Sexton and Lowe had their "who is going to take the kick" moment which ate up another bit of time.

I didn't see this as a sort of La Rochelle ploy to catch their breath before landing a sucker punch though actually now that I read your comment again you say you gave La Rochelle the big breather as opposed to them manufacturing it.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by curates_egg »

I think they sought to actively reduce BiP a lot by going for lineouts and scrums.

But, yeah, that sequence was more a perfect example of everything that went wrong in the game: not just them running down the clock but also us allowing them to take a breather through mistakes and poor decision making.
There were so many little things in that 4 minute period (1 minute BiP, 1.5 minutes clock on but no BiP; 1.5 minutes of clock off) that were uncharacteristic of Leinster this season.
After that, we challenged both 1 and 2 in the lineout (with the 2 challenge very feeble), allowing them an easy maul.

Just before that, we had had an attacking set that started out very positively but ended in us shipping a penalty after running out of options really.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by cormac »

curates_egg wrote: May 31st, 2022, 12:37 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
Very interesting. A key stat there is ball in play: 25% less than the Toulouse game.
I'm pretty sure that, where we have thrived, it has been in games with high BiP.
La Rochelle were excellent at running the clock down in crucial parts of the game.

For me, the perfect whammy was the sequence that started with JOB's error, kneeing the ball dead on 58.06 (clock is only stopped on 58.23, and stops for well over a minute).
Not only did we concede 60 metres and possession, we also gave LAR a big breather, which Barnes totally indulged. You could hear Sexton asking him about the LAR players lying on the ground.
Sexton then took a pretty poor dropout (at 58.36, after the clock had been back on again), even though Lowe had originally wanted to take the drop.
After Berjon's brilliant individual follow up to the missed dropgoal (dropgoal on 58.43, with LAR players still all just standing around), and Sexton's mistake in not clearing, came the penalty (awarded 59.00, clock only stopped on 59.34, after that almost another minute of stoppage with a substitution; lineout then thrown on 59.50).
The LAR players essentially had a nice three-minute breather (of which 1.5 minutes was with the clock ticking but ball not in play) to set them up for their try.
Those few minutes were crucial. A mixture of bad luck and poor decision making to gift them a 5m lineout for next-to-no effort. We weren't in control of the game but we were two scores ahead. If the ball doesn't bounce up and hit Jimmy we've got a scrum back near halfway.

Can't imagine I'll ever want to watch that game back but pretty sure we conceded 10 points from overplaying in our own 22. Bad enough in most games, just reckless in a tight one.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by backrower8 »

It will be interesting to see if they look to continue with or freshen up the senior coaching/DOR roles.

One last throw of the dice with all the hurt and the lure of a Dublin final, or would it be better to give the squad a new combo after 5 years of the Leocaster partnership? My hunch is that Leo to CEO would be timely, with Stu finding a number #2 who will bring more edge to the Leinster pack than is happening under McBryde.
Last edited by backrower8 on May 31st, 2022, 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

Mistakes happen when you're under pressure. We get away with that against most teams, even if we get punished we just keep trucking.

In the Saracens final we blew a 10 point led a few minutes before halftime.

Most finals are really close, 1 score games that could have gone the other way. All their tries could and should have been defended better.

There are lots of areas for small improvements. With hindsight we took risky kicks for advantage when we had chances to run them through a few fast phases and try to wear them down. They also probably would have offended again a few times and picked up an early yellow.

But it's as easy to say that we probably win without the injury to Sexton's ankle, or Kelleher after 15 minutes (1 less impact sub in a game where we needed them).
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

ronk wrote: May 31st, 2022, 1:52 pm But it's as easy to say that we probably win without the injury to Sexton's ankle, or Kelleher after 15 minutes (1 less impact sub in a game where we needed them).
You need a bit of luck always to go your way when it comes to injury. Last season you travelled down to France to play La Rochelle without Jamison Gibson Park and Johnny Sexton plus Caelan Doris. Its not about whether you've backup and everyone has injuries etc. To lose your starting halfback pairing is a really big deal.

My own lads took on Toulouse without Tadhg Beirne or RG Snyman or Gavin Coombes or Dave Kilcoyne or Andrew Conway who will all start that match usually. Then when Peter O'Mahony joins that list of lads, because we have John Hodnett and Jack O'Sullivan and Chris Cloete all out injured we end up with someone like Jack Daly in there trying to hold his own in the 7 shirt. At some point lady luck just isn't with you.

Was same for your boys. Usually Leinster have been beyond elite at coping with injuries. How many teams could simply shrug off Dan Leavy and Will Connors both becoming important players for Leinster and Ireland and then just disappearing with injury. But happening in the match to key men is tough.

As Napoleon said: Give me a lucky general rather than a good one.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

backrower8 wrote: May 31st, 2022, 1:38 pm It will be interesting to see if they look to continue with or freshen up the senior coaching/DOR roles.

One last throw of the dice with all the hurt and the lure of a Dublin final, or would it be better to give the squad a new combo after 5 years of the Leocaster partnership? My hunch is that Leo to CEO would be timely, with Stu finding a number #2 who will bring more edge to the Leinster pack than is happening under McBryde.
Would Leo have the credentials for something like that. He's a rugby player turned coach. Being CEO is a seriously different ball game. I would have thought [hoped] that replacing Andy Farrell was the next move for Leo and Stuart.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by backrower8 »

dougie the flanker wrote: May 31st, 2022, 2:04 pm
backrower8 wrote: May 31st, 2022, 1:38 pm It will be interesting to see if they look to continue with or freshen up the senior coaching/DOR roles.

One last throw of the dice with all the hurt and the lure of a Dublin final, or would it be better to give the squad a new combo after 5 years of the Leocaster partnership? My hunch is that Leo to CEO would be timely, with Stu finding a number #2 who will bring more edge to the Leinster pack than is happening under McBryde.
Would Leo have the credentials for something like that. He's a rugby player turned coach. Being CEO is a seriously different ball game. I would have thought [hoped] that replacing Andy Farrell was the next move for Leo and Stuart.
Yes, he does in my view. DOR role is like a mini-CEO one. He is very sharp. His family's business is corporate at the marketing communications end of things - so relevant. He knows the environment and people very well and is hugely respected. Old head, young shoulders.

The job involves:
  • Rugby knowledge - on pitch and across the province.
  • People management & player/contract negotiation
  • Sponsorship/Marketing revenue attraction
  • Management upwards of IRFU/ ERC/ URC
  • Finally, most importantly, LEADERSHIP authority!!
He has all this and the last point, in particular, he has in spades.

Mick Dawson wasn't a CEO when he took the reins, but he grew into it.

He has been opting for one year contracts for a reason, lining up for a change. Leo is ready. But does he want a final cut at the Champions Cup with a final in Dublin? Leinster's need is greater. I think he will move upstairs.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by ronk »

Cullen is younger and had had a shorter coaching career than O'Gara. No one is suggesting that ROG is looking to the end.

Cullen has been there a while but I think he's still getting started. Guy Moves did 22 years. McCall is in Saracens 12 or 13 years. Baxter with Exeter too.

We have up to 3 games to win a trophy and build for next season. Can't let standards drop.

Then we get a year of Sexton. But then it's only 1 player to replace and we're already used to playing without him.

Leinster are even transitioning to a team where loads of people can make decisions at 1st receiver. We're moving away from needing a like for like replacement for Sexton.

We're still only starting to change the game.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by Dexter »

FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
But, but, but.. ROC in the Indo today:
"Ireland will fear contagion as Leinster’s power failure points to systematic issues"

So those stats can't be right, surely...
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by dougie the flanker »

backrower8 wrote: May 31st, 2022, 2:17 pm
dougie the flanker wrote: May 31st, 2022, 2:04 pm
backrower8 wrote: May 31st, 2022, 1:38 pm It will be interesting to see if they look to continue with or freshen up the senior coaching/DOR roles.

One last throw of the dice with all the hurt and the lure of a Dublin final, or would it be better to give the squad a new combo after 5 years of the Leocaster partnership? My hunch is that Leo to CEO would be timely, with Stu finding a number #2 who will bring more edge to the Leinster pack than is happening under McBryde.
Would Leo have the credentials for something like that. He's a rugby player turned coach. Being CEO is a seriously different ball game. I would have thought [hoped] that replacing Andy Farrell was the next move for Leo and Stuart.
Yes, he does in my view. DOR role is like a mini-CEO one. He is very sharp. His family's business is corporate at the marketing communications end of things - so relevant. He knows the environment and people very well and is hugely respected. Old head, young shoulders.

The job involves:
  • Rugby knowledge - on pitch and across the province.
  • People management & player/contract negotiation
  • Sponsorship/Marketing revenue attraction
  • Management upwards of IRFU/ ERC/ URC
  • Finally, most importantly, LEADERSHIP authority!!
He has all this and the last point, in particular, he has in spades.

Mick Dawson wasn't a CEO when he took the reins, but he grew into it.

He has been opting for one year contracts for a reason, lining up for a change. Leo is ready. But does he want a final cut at the Champions Cup with a final in Dublin? Leinster's need is greater. I think he will move upstairs.
I mean to be fair we were just 5-6 years into professional rugby when Mick Dawson became CEO. Prior to joining Leinster he worked for the largest stockbrokers in Ireland for 20 years. Its not completely comparable.

His family business is corporate in marketing communications - honestly how much input can he truly have into the workings of a corporate business when he has been working round the clock as a player and coach for his entire adult life.

I'm sure he could give it a go. There are lots of players that have made the transition from player to C-Suite but they've tended to have gone on a bit of a corporate journey first. Ulster's CEO jumps to mind. 45 Scotland caps and is now CEO of Ulster. But from his retirement in 2007 to his appointment in 2019 he spent a dozen years learning the ropes going from working at SSE Electricity in their events and sponsorship team, to the Scottish Rugby Union commercial department to Edinburgh as a Managing Director to finally being CEO at Ulster Rugby.

I'd have thought someone like Guy Easterby might be a better fit if you're staying in house.

Still, if Cullen goes for it I'm sure he'll do a fine job. Just seems a bit of an odd choice.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by carlow man »

backrower8 wrote: May 31st, 2022, 1:38 pm It will be interesting to see if they look to continue with or freshen up the senior coaching/DOR roles.

One last throw of the dice with all the hurt and the lure of a Dublin final, or would it be better to give the squad a new combo after 5 years of the Leocaster partnership? My hunch is that Leo to CEO would be timely, with Stu finding a number #2 who will bring more edge to the Leinster pack than is happening under McBryde.
Our scrum has got worse under mcbryde. We are being pinged all over the place and he doesn't seem to be able to sort it out during the game. Being bullied yet again upfront and the guy isn't giving guys info by the looks of it. Maybe it's cos we aren't the biggest pack but we have to learn how to cheat without showing it. This guy hasn't impressed me at all.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by carlow man »

curates_egg wrote: May 31st, 2022, 12:37 pm
FLIP wrote: May 31st, 2022, 10:31 am Interesting to note the stats shown here: https://twitter.com/RosscoHamilton/stat ... 32/photo/1

For all the talk about physicality, Leinster won the collisions, made the most gainline success, carried more meters per carry, than LAR. Our ruck speed was faster too.

For all the talk about scrums, Leinster secured all of theirs, LAR didn't - but managed to get a few penalties off of ours.

The real killer was possession, and our efficiency in the red zone.
Very interesting. A key stat there is ball in play: 25% less than the Toulouse game.
I'm pretty sure that, where we have thrived, it has been in games with high BiP.
La Rochelle were excellent at running the clock down in crucial parts of the game.

For me, the perfect whammy was the sequence that started with JOB's error, kneeing the ball dead on 58.06 (clock is only stopped on 58.23, and stops for well over a minute).
Not only did we concede 60 metres and possession, we also gave LAR a big breather, which Barnes totally indulged. You could hear Sexton asking him about the LAR players lying on the ground.
Sexton then took a pretty poor dropout (at 58.36, after the clock had been back on again), even though Lowe had originally wanted to take the drop.
After Berjon's brilliant individual follow up to the missed dropgoal (dropgoal on 58.43, with LAR players still all just standing around), and Sexton's mistake in not clearing, came the penalty (awarded 59.00, clock only stopped on 59.34, after that almost another minute of stoppage with a substitution; lineout then thrown on 59.50).
The LAR players essentially had a nice three-minute breather (of which 1.5 minutes was with the clock ticking but ball not in play) to set them up for their try.
Good write up from harpin on rugby but lar were by far the better team on the day. They played better heads up rugby and made better decisions than we did. Rog said that they would finish us off with 20 mons to go and he was right. I'm amazed we never genuinely went for the turnover in the last 10 mins and our lack of an genuine poacher was apparent. To have had someone like leavy or fardy out there was a hugely missed. We have hard game competitors who give it 100% but we are crying out for a complete b$&%@#d at the breakdown.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by riocard911 »

carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 4:57 pm
backrower8 wrote: May 31st, 2022, 1:38 pm It will be interesting to see if they look to continue with or freshen up the senior coaching/DOR roles.

One last throw of the dice with all the hurt and the lure of a Dublin final, or would it be better to give the squad a new combo after 5 years of the Leocaster partnership? My hunch is that Leo to CEO would be timely, with Stu finding a number #2 who will bring more edge to the Leinster pack than is happening under McBryde.
Our scrum has got worse under mcbryde. We are being pinged all over the place and he doesn't seem to be able to sort it out during the game. Being bullied yet again upfront and the guy isn't giving guys info by the looks of it. Maybe it's cos we aren't the biggest pack but we have to learn how to cheat without showing it. This guy hasn't impressed me at all.
At this stage, I too feel somewhat underwhelmed by McBride.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by backrower8 »

desperado wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:50 pm Don't know if anyone else on the forum was in the airport at 2300 Sat night. There were 4 flights back; 2 charters, 1 RA, 1 Aer Lingus I think all within 40 mins of each other. Place was full of Leinster fans returning and when the players arrived they got a good round of applause. Obviously a very crestfallen bunch; but very dignified and appreciative of the support. Roll on Saturday when we can all get back on the horse.
Yes, the round of soft but sustained applause was nicely done. Also nice that people gave them their space.

Interesting to see Heaslip and BOD were on their flight also. BOD's father-in-law dies the previous day, so a particularly difficult day and post-match for him to navigate in front of camera.
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Re: Leinster v La Rochelle Heineken Cup Final Sat 28th May 4.45 Marseille

Post by FLIP »

carlow man wrote: May 31st, 2022, 5:06 pm I'm amazed we never genuinely went for the turnover in the last 10 mins and our lack of an genuine poacher was apparent.
Big Mike did go for one and we were pinged. Barnes was not allowing anything but the cleanest of turnovers from us. And even then, we turned them over 10 times. This narrative of " Leinster need bigger and meaner" just doesn't have a basis in fact.
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